Help my diagnose my 170 falcon problem!

dapetruz

dapetruz

New member
Hello Fellow Ford Six Enthusiasts. I was pointed to this forum from another forum as a place I might be able to get some direction!

I have a 1963 Ford Falcon (pretty sure its the original 170) Definitely need this confirmed though because i'm sure some tips you guys will offer will change regarding this.

So here's my dilemma...

Car was running completely fine and operational.
I wanted to replace my worn heavily cracked exhaust manifold. Believe it or not, I got all the bolts out but two. Two broke inside the head. So I proceeded to remove the head. Upon removing the head, I noticed the head bolts were extremely loose, definitely not to the specified torque recommendations. Once the head was removed I removed both of the exhaust bolts. Drilled/tapped. While the head was off I noticed a huge amount carbon built up on the valves, so I removed the rocker assy and the valves and cleaned them with a brass wire brush wheel. Upon removing the valves, I kept them all in order using a piece of cardboard labeled with position as well as the pushrods. With the head bare, I used a parts cleaner and thoroughly cleaned and dried the head. I re-installed the valves in order as well as lapped them. Upon re-installing the head, I opted to use ARP head studs, instead of the old head bolts. Used a felpro gasket coated with copper sealer on both sides(I hear mixed reviews about this from everyone) I torqued the studs to the specified spec according to the paper that came with them.(purchased off classic inlines) Snug the stud, back it off half a turn then torque the head stud nut. I torqued the rockery assy according to the spec in my shop manual. I did not make any valve adjustments at this point. Re-installed carb and remaining hardware. I've been told I had hydraulic lifters, and I shouldn't need to adjust the valves from one guy, next guy tells me I have to adjust. Ok...so the car fires up, idles better than it ever has nice and smooth etc.....I drive it down the road under a load I notice two problems immediately, I hit a huge dead spot in the throttle, for instance if I want to just cruise at 45mph when I reach 45mp I try to keep my foot/throttle at 45 the car breaks up really really bad almost as if someone is pulling out fuel or spark, but if I accelerate it goes away. Also I notice my transmission doesn't want to shift into 2/3 without letting off the gas(this may be unrelated but figured I throw this out.) So I had my neighbor stop by who was an old ford mechanic, and adjust the valves at .16 the problem still exists. I bought a vacuum gauge, I get great vacuum going to the transmission modulator, and right out of the manifold. I'm still thinking a valve problem at this point, but wanted to get your guys thoughts. Also, because I wanted to...I bought a new carb from Mikescarbparts and replaced my carb. Both my old carb and new carb act the same. So what are you guys thoughts?
 
first did you install a fresh set of plugs? second check the condition of the ignition system overall, including point gap.

since you are getting good vacuum, i dont think you have a vacuum issue, but rather an adjustment issue with the vacuum modulator. perhaps it was set when you had poor vacuum, to get a proper shift, but now it needs to be reset.

also make sure your fuel pump is putting out a proper volume of fuel. test this by first making sure the carb bowl is full, then disconnect the fuel line at the carb, and using a 20oz jar, stick the end of the fuel line in the jar and have someone start the engine and let it idle. the jar should be half full in a few seconds, and the output flow should be fairly smooth. if not then likely you have a fuel pump issue, however that doesnt seem likely at this point.
 
rbohm":2if1f0zd said:
first did you install a fresh set of plugs? second check the condition of the ignition system overall, including point gap.

since you are getting good vacuum, i dont think you have a vacuum issue, but rather an adjustment issue with the vacuum modulator. perhaps it was set when you had poor vacuum, to get a proper shift, but now it needs to be reset.

also make sure your fuel pump is putting out a proper volume of fuel. test this by first making sure the carb bowl is full, then disconnect the fuel line at the carb, and using a 20oz jar, stick the end of the fuel line in the jar and have someone start the engine and let it idle. the jar should be half full in a few seconds, and the output flow should be fairly smooth. if not then likely you have a fuel pump issue, however that doesnt seem likely at this point.
Click to expand...

Thanks Rbohm, I did install a fresh set of plugs, but after the initial put back together I noticed a lot of oil on the plugs after it ran for about 20/30 minutes. They could def. be replaced again. I did do valve seals, so I wasn't sure why so much oil was getting on the plugs. I should re-check this. I set the point gap to the specs and the ignition system looks ok, I do have a rather old Coil though. What are the procedures for resetting the vacuum modulator I have never done this. Regarding the fuel pump. I have an aftermarket pump mechanical not original. I bought it about a year ago when mine had died. I took the fuel line off, measured a "liter" and cranked the car for 30 seconds, it was sending a little bit more fuel than the liter. The shop manual said it should be a liter/30sec.
 
This is just a WAG, and maybe more of a question than an answer.
If you replaced a stock shim head gasket with a composite head gasket without milling the head the thickness difference, you lowered your compression ratio. This would affect overall performance. I have no clue if the loss in performance would cause the problems you describe.
 
Sounds like the valves and settings are good. That throttle response issue-the changes in load- makes me wonder about vacuum connections to the right port on the carb or a change in dist or carb??
My way
 
jimlj66":2zwipuha said:
This is just a WAG, and maybe more of a question than an answer.
If you replaced a stock shim head gasket with a composite head gasket without milling the head the thickness difference, you lowered your compression ratio. This would affect overall performance. I have no clue if the loss in performance would cause the problems you describe.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. Plus I torqued the head down, the bolts were so loose it was scary....

my way":2zwipuha said:
Sounds like the valves and settings are good. That throttle response issue-the changes in load- makes me wonder about vacuum connections to the right port on the carb or a change in dist or carb??
My way
Click to expand...

Agree totally. I really want to go over adjusting the valves again, I think I may have to figure out it if I have solid or hydraulic lifters. I didn't change the dist. and I went into the same port on the carb(autolite 1100).
 
First find out where all that oil on the spark plugs is comming from.

Next I would do a compression check.

After that I would find out if you have aload-o-matic distriutor or not and the matching carb.

viewtopic.php?t=15522

Check your choke.

Dito
jimlj66":landfhgq said:
» Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:47 pm
If you replaced a stock shim head gasket with a composite head gasket without milling the head the thickness difference, you lowered your compression ratio.
Click to expand...
Lastly try using the vacuum gage while driving.

Hope this helps.
 
69.5Mav":37x9pz37 said:
First find out where all that oil on the spark plugs is comming from.


Next I would do a compression check.

After that I would find out if you have aload-o-matic distriutor or not and the matching carb.

viewtopic.php?t=15522

Check your choke.

Dito
jimlj66":37x9pz37 said:
» Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:47 pm
If you replaced a stock shim head gasket with a composite head gasket without milling the head the thickness difference, you lowered your compression ratio.
Click to expand...
Lastly try using the vacuum gage while driving.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Ok I got some work to do this weekend. I will report back soon! Thanks.
 
dapetruz":294g839g said:
69.5Mav":294g839g said:
First find out where all that oil on the spark plugs is comming from.


Next I would do a compression check.

After that I would find out if you have aload-o-matic distriutor or not and the matching carb.

viewtopic.php?t=15522

Check your choke.

Dito
jimlj66":294g839g said:
» Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:47 pm
If you replaced a stock shim head gasket with a composite head gasket without milling the head the thickness difference, you lowered your compression ratio.
Click to expand...
Lastly try using the vacuum gage while driving.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Ok I got some work to do this weekend. I will report back soon! Thanks.
Click to expand...

Just wanted to get a tad bit of a head start, I just noticed something....All the valve seals on every single valve slid up to the top of the valve/valve spring. This would probably explain why I'm getting oil in the cylinders. Its every valve as well. I bought a felpro valve seal kit. They must have slid up. So I'm assuming this is my problem now....
 
If you think about it this way, the stock umbrella seals, seal around the stem of the valve. It acts like an umbrella. Its not made to seal around the valve guide. Just shed oil away. The snug fit between the seal and the valve stem wipes the oil off the stem. If its worn so much that there's a gap between the seal and the stem, I would think that the seal will just fall down and oil will go down the guide. So, in other words, when you shut the engine off some could be up but some could be down. When the engine is running slow, the seals will grip the stem and go up and down. But anything more than an idle, the valve moves so fast that the seal cannot change direction fast enough because of inertia and it stays down more over the valve guide. Obviously it has to go down because the valve goes down but can ride up when you shut the engine off because it goes too slow.

I hope this makes sense.
 
drag-200stang":1dgrmx3e said:
If you think about it this way, the stock umbrella seals, seal around the stem of the valve. It acts like an umbrella. Its not made to seal around the valve guide. Just shed oil away. The snug fit between the seal and the valve stem wipes the oil off the stem. If its worn so much that there's a gap between the seal and the stem, I would think that the seal will just fall down and oil will go down the guide. So, in other words, when you shut the engine off some could be up but some could be down. When the engine is running slow, the seals will grip the stem and go up and down. But anything more than an idle, the valve moves so fast that the seal cannot change direction fast enough because of inertia and it stays down more over the valve guide. Obviously it has to go down because the valve goes down but can ride up when you shut the engine off because it goes too slow.

I hope this makes sense.
Click to expand...

Understand. The question is, do you think this could be what's causing my main issue? The seals are new, I put them in upon installing the head.
 
No I do not think the seals are your main problem. As far as the oil issue ,not sure,seals did not get damaged by the sharp edges on the valve?they make a sleeve for that.
 
I'm not making to much head room at this point. I went through a full valve-adjustment and I'm still having the problem. Pulled the plugs last night and every single piston has oil laying on top. Where else could the oil seep into the piston chamber from besides the Valve Seals and head gasket? I think the oil is fouling the plugs.
 
Valve guides?
If that's the case it might be cheaper to get another head rather than R&R this one.
But another old head may have the same problems.
 
CoupeBoy":e444p8cv said:
Back to the basics for me..
Do you have a Load-O-Matic (LOM) distributor?
If yes, do you have the corresponding carburetor with Spark Control Valve (SCV)?

Mismatching these can cause drivability problems that act like carb issues.
Mustang Monthly did an article on this a couple years back.
Six-Cylinder Tuning & Performance -- Get smoother operation, reliability, and power from your Mustang Six
Click to expand...

Yes. Have the Load o Matic and matching autolite 1100 with SCV.
 
Just took her around the block....after the valve adjust. Car is fast, it idles boogies down the street still has that complete dead spot in the throttle about halfway down....if I put it to the wood it goes away and the car cruises. Driving me insane haha. So as before I stated the transmission also started acting funny during all of this...what do all these things have in common? Vaccum. How and what are the procedures to check to make sure the load o matic is functioning and working as it should? Why would this have changed just removing and re-installing the head?
 
Will the tranny downshift when you accel from a cruise? (Assuming an AT) Float set correctly? When was the carb last rebuilt? I'm spitballing here but if the bowl is only filling enough to keep up until a given point, it may stumble till the accel pump gives a squirt to wake it up. My guess is you always had a problem that only came to light when you fixed your vacuum leak.
 
cr_bobcat":220ju1ec said:
Will the tranny downshift when you accel from a cruise? (Assuming an AT) Float set correctly? When was the carb last rebuilt? I'm spitballing here but if the bowl is only filling enough to keep up until a given point, it may stumble till the accel pump gives a squirt to wake it up. My guess is you always had a problem that only came to light when you fixed your vacuum leak.
Click to expand...

If I take off it doesn't want to shift into 2nd without letting off the throttle.(AT). Float is a good question....I bought a new carb from MikesCarbParts.com completely rebuilt, in the packet it states the carb is completely set for my car and not to open or adjust. So I have not opened the bowl. But as I said before my old Carb acted the same way. So that's what's strange.
 
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