Modifying a late-model head for 2x2bbls

Asa

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Afternoon guys.

So, I've got a couple Weber 2bbls headed my way, and a late-model head that I want to modify. Was going to direct mount the carbs centered over the 1&3 intake ports, and the 4&6 ports. I will be milling my own adapters to bolt them down, and will be doing most of the machine-work on the head to create an opening for the carbs to flow into.

Some of the questions I can think of:
How should I orient the carbs? Have the secondary on the inside/outside of the head (as in towards the regular carb opening), or have them lined up for first-secondary, first-secondary?
Port arrangements on the adapter and intake: one hole per venturi? One hole per venturi and blend to one large hole on the intake? One hole per adapter and intake?
How thick is the intake at the top where I'm planning on cutting? I will have to drill and tap some threads into it to bolt the adapters down. And how many bolts are recommended to lock the adapter in place? I would think 4, but I'm not sure where I'd be able to put them.

Other thoughts?
 
Asa,

I would probably just place them in whatever orientation allows the linkage to work best. The reality is that there's probably not a large difference in fuel/air flow that you can attribute to throttle blade orientation in this situation. The log is too small for that to have much effect.
 
I do not believe you will have enough metal left after milling the log for a good thread bite. I have always felt four complete turns are needed. I milled my log for a single weber, and had to do a couple of extra holes to get enough metal for the needed bite. The top of the log is not very thick, reach into the existing opening with the four finger inside and the thumb outside and you can get a better idea of how thin the casting is.
 
easier way to tell is knock out the freeze plugs at the end of each log for a total view down the log and weber adaptor use 3 screws into thr head but just make a custom adaptor with holes closer in then a classic inlines weber adaptor and the thread /bolt size does not need to be that big. with three small bolts you'll be styling.
 
On my 1978 head, it was thin, after I milled the area for the aluminum adapter to bolt the Holley 2300 carb on.

Will be interesting how it works for you.

I've had the same idea. Kinda looked for a cheap late head (cracked, no good, for free) to experiment on. Never found one..
 
You may want to consider adding a plenum divider (possibly with a balance orifice) by using a center carb block off plate and welding a perpendicular divider that would drop down into the log, separating it into two halves.
 
Sounds like the consensus is that I might have thread engagement issues. Maybe I can braze some tabs onto the side of the intake to hold it on? I'd be using a lot of heat with that, though.

I was thinking of a plenum divider made by lathing some aluminum down to the diameter of the 1bbl carb hole and slotting it in place, then holding it there by making a plate at the top that covers the opening. I'm not familiar with the positives though, so I don't know why I would be doing so.
 
I also have been thinking of building a 2 x 2 setup for the 77 Maverick 250, and since the log is a little on the thin side am wondering about using some nut-serts for the carb plate mounting bosses. If you start welding on the head guess you could also machine some bosses and weld or braze them into place. Good luck on the project Asa, will be watching your progress. :nod:
 
Asa":3jamlups said:
Sounds like the consensus is that I might have thread engagement issues. Maybe I can braze some tabs onto the side of the intake to hold it on? I'd be using a lot of heat with that, though.

I was thinking of a plenum divider made by lathing some aluminum down to the diameter of the 1bbl carb hole and slotting it in place, then holding it there by making a plate at the top that covers the opening. I'm not familiar with the positives though, so I don't know why I would be doing so.

if you want to split the intake into halves, your idea is not bad. the hardest part is going to be eliminating external vacuum leaks, but that should be easy enough.

as for setting up for two weber carbs, i assume you will use two 32/36 carbs. so my suggestion would be rather than try to open up the intake to direct mount the carbs, it might be easier to set it up like you would is using two one barrel carbs with the adapter like the factory one barrel set up. that way you can use the classicinlines adapter for the large log that mounts the 32/36 weber. and since each carb would only be feeding three cylinders, the size of the opening wouldnt matter.
 
I have thought about a 2 x 2bbl for some time using the 32/36. Somewhere on this forum Ecstasy was providing info on I believe a Weber 2bbl that was physically smaller than the 32/36 although I don't have the info on them. That might help to have a smaller footprint. I will follow this with great interest.
 
FYI - yes -- there is a thread on this forum about a two barrel carb that is smaller than the 32/36.

And yes - I believe it was "X", the keeper of all inline 6 information known to mankind, who was the person who provided that info. But I most certainly recall the thread (and I may have started it).

I seem to think it may be a Ford P/N, but I would have to look for that thread.
 
65fback":2j1jvh2f said:
Yes, there's a tiny progressive 2bbl. You can buy them on Stovebolt's website:

http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/ ... ory=361512

IIRC someone referred to them recently on another post on this site.

Ive been thinking about these myself.


Aha, that's it! Its basically a very small 32/36 DGV/5200 Holley Weber pattern fitment. but its not big. The Weber 32 DFT is the Motorcraft 5740/6740, and Carter Weber 740 series carb. Langdons does a roaring trade on them becasue they are so cheap...

TomLangdonsTwinCarbMotorcraftCarter740carbconversionforI6s.jpg


Best on line sumary is from his Aussie site.....

http://www.thecarbyshop.com/news

My post was

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72266&p=555538#p555538
xctasy":2j1jvh2f said:
There is also the much smaller 22 mm venturi Holley 180 cfm 2-bbl carb, sold as the Motorcraft 5740/6740, or Carter Weber 740 series carb. It's just a Weber 32 DFT made under license for US Ford Escorts from 1981 till about 1988.


One of our members here has three of these on his log headed 250 engine.

http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63791#p487947


See http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/tech/p ... rburation/
http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/ ... id=1222026
http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/ ... id=1222050

http://pages.suddenlink.net/churchill_t ... Webers.pdf

Its a nice carb, but its too small, but I'm all for innovation....
 
rbohm":3efz9iqn said:
Asa":3efz9iqn said:
Sounds like the consensus is that I might have thread engagement issues. Maybe I can braze some tabs onto the side of the intake to hold it on? I'd be using a lot of heat with that, though.

I was thinking of a plenum divider made by lathing some aluminum down to the diameter of the 1bbl carb hole and slotting it in place, then holding it there by making a plate at the top that covers the opening. I'm not familiar with the positives though, so I don't know why I would be doing so.

if you want to split the intake into halves, your idea is not bad. the hardest part is going to be eliminating external vacuum leaks, but that should be easy enough.

as for setting up for two weber carbs, i assume you will use two 32/36 carbs. so my suggestion would be rather than try to open up the intake to direct mount the carbs, it might be easier to set it up like you would is using two one barrel carbs with the adapter like the factory one barrel set up. that way you can use the classicinlines adapter for the large log that mounts the 32/36 weber. and since each carb would only be feeding three cylinders, the size of the opening wouldnt matter.
(y)
 
xctasy":16a1p1qh said:
65fback":16a1p1qh said:
Yes, there's a tiny progressive 2bbl. You can buy them on Stovebolt's website:

http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/ ... ory=361512

IIRC someone referred to them recently on another post on this site.

Ive been thinking about these myself.


Aha, that's it! Its basically a very small 32/36 DGV/5200 Holley Weber pattern fitment. but its not big. The Weber 32 DFT is the Motorcraft 5740/6740, and Carter Weber 740 series carb. Langdons does a roaring trade on them becasue they are so cheap...

TomLangdonsTwinCarbMotorcraftCarter740carbconversionforI6s.jpg


Best on line sumary is from his Aussie site.....

http://www.thecarbyshop.com/news

My post was

http://www.fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 38#p555538
xctasy":16a1p1qh said:
There is also the much smaller 22 mm venturi Holley 180 cfm 2-bbl carb, sold as the Motorcraft 5740/6740, or Carter Weber 740 series carb. It's just a Weber 32 DFT made under license for US Ford Escorts from 1981 till about 1988.


One of our members here has three of these on his log headed 250 engine.

viewtopic.php?t=63791#p487947


See http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/tech/p ... rburation/
http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/ ... id=1222026
http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/ ... id=1222050

http://pages.suddenlink.net/churchill_t ... Webers.pdf

Its a nice carb, but its too small, but I'm all for innovation....

X,

Would not two or three of these little guys be almost ideal for a warmed over 200?
 
Soldmy66":3vdyt4su said:
xctasy":3vdyt4su said:
65fback":3vdyt4su said:
Yes, there's a tiny progressive 2bbl. You can buy them on Stovebolt's website:

http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/ ... ory=361512

IIRC someone referred to them recently on another post on this site.

Ive been thinking about these myself.


Aha, that's it! Its basically a very small 32/36 DGV/5200 Holley Weber pattern fitment. but its not big. The Weber 32 DFT is the Motorcraft 5740/6740, and Carter Weber 740 series carb. Langdons does a roaring trade on them becasue they are so cheap...

TomLangdonsTwinCarbMotorcraftCarter740carbconversionforI6s.jpg


Best on line sumary is from his Aussie site.....

http://www.thecarbyshop.com/news

My post was

http://www.fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 38#p555538
xctasy":3vdyt4su said:
There is also the much smaller 22 mm venturi Holley 180 cfm 2-bbl carb, sold as the Motorcraft 5740/6740, or Carter Weber 740 series carb. It's just a Weber 32 DFT made under license for US Ford Escorts from 1981 till about 1988.


One of our members here has three of these on his log headed 250 engine.

viewtopic.php?t=63791#p487947


See http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/tech/p ... rburation/
http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/ ... id=1222026
http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/store/ ... id=1222050

http://pages.suddenlink.net/churchill_t ... Webers.pdf

Its a nice carb, but its too small, but I'm all for innovation....

X,

Would not two or three of these little guys be almost ideal for a warmed over 200?

in fact stovebolt recommends two of those on a six cylinder engine.
 
Tom supplies everything you need to make a 6 barrel set up work. A twin 2-bbl will be strangled, but should work okay. I'm sure on a day to day runnig basis, a twin or triple 32 DFT will be lots of fun, but compared to even some of the ages old combinations, the peak power output will be way down.

Regards what is effectively a very restrictive 360 cfm mechanical secondary 4-bbl, two 32 DFT's will work better than on 1-bbl carb, its got fuel distribution, progression and parts backup as aces. Its just like Mustang Geezers old Carter 2 x 1-bbl set up on his D8 head.

The issue is that when you go to triple carbs, is that the head loss on small carbs is huge, and it won't give the performance you expect at wide open throttle compared to, say, even an old Offy oe Edlebrock tripower. That's because Webers idealized venturi size for an I6 comes into play when you add 6 venturis to six cylinders, and the 22 mm venturis in a 32 mm carb will ensure the engine feels flatter than if you used three 34 ICT or ICH Weber 1-bbl carbs with 29 mm venturis, or the old 1904/1908/1909/1940/1100/1101 1-bbls with whatever one of the venturi sizes they came with. Even though total active venturi area (and air flow) when all six barrels of a 32 DFT are open is 15% more (180 cfm 3.54 sq inches verses 156 cfm 3.07 for the ICT/ICH or any of the early bigger Holley or Autolite/Motorcraft 1-bbls), the top end will fall flat in the 3500 to 5500 rpm zone because the ideal venturi sizes are way off. This is peculiar to an engine that is becoming more like and independent runner or port on port carburation, and its caused by an inability to create benefical fuel standoff from air speed which is too high to make power. The short, squat 32 DFT is running a supercritical air speed even with three of them on a 200. The ages old 1-bbl carbs are taller, and since they aren't able to function as port on port carbs in a triple installation, they are insensitve to just about any cam and you get good results...unless you use Three 1-bbl carb with tiny 144/170 spec venturis.


The small carb gospel is just fine for 355 NASCAR V8'S running a 390 cfm 4-bbl carb over a 650...those guys used to just fiddle with the cam profile to limit scavanging, and you then loose no power with a smaller carb. Or a turbo I6, often guys run crazy single or 2-bbl carbs and get away with all the power they want by boosting the crap outta the engine. Too smaller venturi size starts to cause probems when you go to duplicate or triplicate multi carb instillations. Benefical fuel standoff occurs when air speed is about 200 feet pre second. It allows well atomized fuel in a perfect roosters tail to ram tune itself into the ports and combustion chambers with just a little bit of reversion, like an alternating current saturates a power cable. This allows a jet to atomize the least amount of fuel for the most amount of power. Its classic World War 1 and II areo engine practice, and what the late Eduado Webers port on port chart of the 1940's was based on. On a dyno with all venturis sized to make 200 feet per second, you might get at 5000 rpm 180 flywheel hp and only use 700 cubic centimeters of gas per minute at wide open throttle. If your multiple carb venturi area size is wrong by being too small, it will use up to 40% more fuel, perhaps 1000 cc/minute at wide open throttle, and the peak power point will only be 4500 rpm, and you'll loose maybee 30% of the power, or 40 hp and only get 140 flywheel hp in comparison . Tripling the number of carbs doesn't triple the power because its finding a way to make the peak air speed thru the carb venturis approx 200 fps that makes power.


If an 81 Escort SS or 82 Escort carb engine gave 72 hp on a 97 cubic inch engine, then three of those carbs on a 200 wont give 216 hp (3 x 72) unless the venturi sizes are able to be optimized to suit. And they aren't able to becasue the casting is too darned small to get even six 30 mm venturis that is needed to make 216 hp at 5500 rpm. The DGAV or DG series is easily able to be routed out to give a huge boost in top ennd power over the tiny 32 DFT.

On an triple carb I6 or a quad IDA 289 GT40 or AC Cobra, having too smaller venturis drags the peak power prm point down, making the engine fall flat compared to a non port on port engine. You cant fix the strangled effect or hp loss with a special cam grind on these engines
 
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