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Oil pump spacer Question

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67Straightsix
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Oil pump spacer Question

Post #1 by 67Straightsix » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:06 pm

I've modified my oil pan so I have to lengthen my oil pick-up tube. I was trying to figure out the best way to do that when a thought
occurred...instead of lengthening the tube, why can't I put an 1 1/2 inch spacer between the oil pump and the block? I'm also using arp
studs which interferes with the oil pump body, so a spacer would solve both problems. I can machine the spacer to fit perfectly. Does
anyone see a catastrophic problem with this? :nono: I know the oil pump drive will be to short, so I'll use one off an sbf. Any thoughts
would be appreciated - thanks.

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xctasy
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #2 by xctasy » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:19 pm

That main bearing cap they added in mid 1964 when the small six became seven main bearing, oh, what a pest. You idea sounds good.

Smarter than, say, pulling the offending main bearing caps out and running it as, say, a 4 main engine :mrgreen:

There's a bunch of little things to check first, but No problem if its done right.


One issue is that the replacement drive you use has to ensure there is no preload on the distributor, and it must fit nicely into the oil pump as per the stock 200.


The I6 shaft is about 5.14" long, and 5/16", so small 1/4" Hex Windsors don't fit, but the 351W and 351C are options. Please note that the details on the problems with 1/4" small Widsor ARP shafts apply to the bigger 5/16" items too.

strokeme from

http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8 ... -351w.html
seamed to affirm that all ARP Hex drives for TFI/EECIV 5.0 Windsors and MSD's need distibutor drive triming due to the way the ARP shaft is machined from round stock to hex at the ends

Image

See also http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-5-8 ... shaft.html

Replacements might not have this hex to round sections clearanced, and you may run into flase or real preload problems unless you thoughly check the installed hex drive is sitting where a stock I6 one would. Aftermarket oil pumps aren't always the same. The pilot hex sections both have to sit the same.


Upgrading to the 15 dollar 5/16" 154-7901 (5 point 8) Ford hex or even CNC Billet 4130 chrome-moly drives is recomended; any hard worked 351 W or C or NASCAR 357WC will take out a stock item. Its why my Ford V8 buddies call them them spaggeti or macaroni drives....

Sizes:

for 351W 8.19" length by 5/16"
for 302C/351C/351M/400 9.34" length by 5/16"


From previous posts, interferance is common when you use the later pump on the early 4 bearing engines, or you put good 300 rods in your 250. Adding ARP's make chcking for contact manadatory.

62 Ranchero 200 had that issue, and ground back stuff or used another hex bolt head capscrew. His pictures show it if you search his previous posts.


Our member Alloy Dave said the 250 item is about 10 mm (393 thou ) too short for our engines, so he said a Cleveland 351 item is a good option.

https://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 98&start=0

, but we have used 250 US drives cut down for our Aussie 9.38" deck 3.3 and 4.1's. Again, if you have to cut something down, you have to ensure stock Oil pump and distributor seating. It cannot preload the distributor.

So a longer Windsor item, even if it has to be cut down, would be good if you check those two seating matters. Don't like the idea of cuttin a 5.0 4130 piece, tho. I assume you can use the 351W item with a 1-1/2" spacer, and not have to cut it too much. Mildon used to make a bomb proof 4130 piece.


If you can shift it down an use all stock parts, well and good, you can say...

Image
Last edited by xctasy on Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

67Straightsix
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #3 by 67Straightsix » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:03 am

Xctasy,
First happy new year!
As a matter of fact you'll get no argument from me :rolflmao:
Thanks for the info. I did read 62 ranchero 200 post , and was planning on grinding the oil pump housing . I've been bit in the past substituting bolts, didn't
want to take that chance on this build . Tomorrow I'll mock up a spacer, and see which hex drive will work . I'll probably go with an upgraded hex drive. To fry
an engine because I went cheap would be very bad :cry:

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xctasy
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #4 by xctasy » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:28 am

67Straightsix wrote:.....To fry
an engine because I went cheap would be very bad :cry:


And to not use science, information and technolgy to save money would be criminal.

An engieer should be a person who can do $100 work for $10.

Here's a line of inquirey for you.





If you are adding 1-1/2" to a stock 200 intermediate shaft 5.14" shaft, then what follows is 1.60" longer. If you were to take off a liittle less than 1/8", (adding some extra for gasketing), this would be the candidate.

I'm not certian of location type, but it should check out okay, and be the same as stock oil pump and Duraspark II. They went to a cam synchronyser at some stage, with EDIS, but you should be okay. You will check because...Image

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/m ... /overview/

Source 1: http://www.mellingengine.com/Portals/5/ ... s/ford.pdf

Source 2: http://www.melling.com/Portals/0/Size%2 ... 0chart.pdf

All other sources measure packaging, this chart is authentic.

The specs on the 1988 to pre 3/29/2000 3.8 Essx 90 dgree Fox, Fox 4, Taurus, Winstar Melling Heavy-Duty Intermediate Driveshafts IS137.

Length--6.74 IN, Width IN, 5/16 Hex

Earlier one isnt gonna work, IS-87G from 82-87, oddball size 3.13" and sadly, 1/4"Hex


See http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/m ... /overview/

In just about everyting except the wacky offset pitched bores and seriously clever casting pattern, the Essex 90 Degree is minted off Windsor or Cleveland dies on the hard components, but with a little fortune, $8 with free delivery might help. You can buy two 3.8 for the price of one 351W intermediate shaft, with the same quality.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

67Straightsix
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Posts: 130
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #5 by 67Straightsix » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:59 am

I guess if I'm going to ask a question, I should give all the info... I'm using an EDIS ignition - I'm going to modify a cam synchronyser to drive the
oil pump so I can adjust some of the length on the modified synchronyser. The Melling driveshaft looks like a good way to go. Thanks for all the great info!
I'll post pics when I get this all sorted out :D

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xctasy
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #6 by xctasy » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:04 pm

LOL, :cool: :lol: good choice. If your expecting to fly soon, your happy day is here again...

:cool:


Between XFlow_Fairlane and thesameguy in this post, http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67718, a plan was hatched out with the Lima 1992 year 2300 cam synchronizer.

Ranger, Mustang should be the same about those later years. It was XFlow_Fairlane who used the 2.3 drive way back in the day, and it didn't take much to set thesameguy on the right path.


These two posts give you the vitla ingredients..

thesameguy wrote:I went by the junkyard last weekend, and amazingly there were two '92 4-cylinder Mustangs there. I almost pulled the whole motor I was so happy (can't have too many 2.3l Lima parts around!), but instead I just pulled the oil pump drive.

Here is what it looks like removed:

Image

Couple things are true:

1. The gear is different compared to a six. It's at least a different diameter, didn't bother counting the teeth.
2. The shaft size is the same between the two, but there is a crown on top of the six's gear that interferes with the body of Mustang part.
3. The shaft on the Mustang part is about 1/4" longer from gear to nose than on the six. The recess/drive for the oil pump shaft is about 1/4" deeper than the six's distributor, so it could lose some length.

Here's an image approximating the gear interference:

Image

So.... I dropped the gear and pump drive off at a machine stop. They are gonna turn down the gear and trim the nose off the shaft. Hopefully that does it. I can't see any immediate reason why it won't.



thesameguy wrote:Got the oil pump drive back from the machine shop.

This picture shows the modified drive versus the original. Notice the top of the gear (post above) has been machined off, and the nose of drive has been removed. The 2.3l four is thicker than the small six here, so the drive is about 1/4" longer.

Image

Here is the measurement between the tip of the drive the hole for the roll pin. This measurement is on a 200ci six distributor shaft with the gear removed. This is what you need to get the shaft on the 2.3l oil pump drive down to.

Image

And, finally, here it is installed. Although a total anachronism, it just about looks like this motor was designed to have distributorless ignition from the beginning! I used the hold down from the 2.3l motor, as it fits much better of the drive that the stock piece. I had to hack it in half and redrill the hole, but it's a better fit and I won't have to worry about the drive floating out the block. ;)

Image

Only point of concern for me is that I got the gear installed properly vertically. Pretty sure my measurements were all good, but I snapped some pictures of the teeth on the drive gear and will check out wear in a while to make sure it doesn't need adjustment.

This project is pretty much DONE. I am really looking forward to many months of driving this car and NOT working on it. :)



Maybee the 49.447 mm reading (if that what it is, 1.9467" decimalized) can be used to your advantage
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

67Straightsix
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #7 by 67Straightsix » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:42 pm

Had a little interference problem with the oil pump hitting the pan - nothing a hammer couldn't fix. Ended up raising the oil pump up 1 1/4 inches
and bent the inlet to compensate for the other 1/4 inch. Here's some pics to shows the clearance of the oil pump from the studs and the bulge I
created in the pan to accommodate the pump.

http://imageshack.com/a/img537/417/2503NS.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/2069/GJ8O4s.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img540/2793/l5RHgo.jpg

67Straightsix
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #8 by 67Straightsix » Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:14 pm

That drive looks like the way to go. Tomorrow when the pick-n-pull is open I'll look for one. I have one out of 3.8 mustang - the length is 1/2 " too long and
the shaft diameter changes from .514 to .531 so it will not fit through the pump shaft hole in the block. I was going to machine the shaft down, but this is a
better solution.

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FalconSedanDelivery
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #9 by FalconSedanDelivery » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:10 am

:bang: Really , 99% of all aftermarket Deep oil Pans use Extended Pickups , and your going to space the pump :wow:
Falcon 6's, FE's I Like them both , Sold all My 6 cyl stuff ( for now at least ) glad to pass along some tips though

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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #10 by drag-200stang » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:10 am

It is not like a spacer has never been used before, if you have the ability to make one ,why not. the pump will work better, not having to suck the oil up as far. Gerotor pumps do not like to suck like spur pumps Maybe the longer shaft will smooth out spark scatter ,maybe not.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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xctasy
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #11 by xctasy » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:40 am

FalconSedanDelivery wrote: :bang: Really , 99% of all aftermarket Deep oil Pans use Extended Pickups , and your going to space the pump :wow:



Yep, its worse than that, its :duh: :duh: :duh:

because

67Straightsix wrote:I've modified my oil pan so I have to lengthen my oil pick-up tube. I was trying to figure out the best way to do that when a thought
occurred...instead of lengthening the tube, why can't I put an 1 1/2 inch spacer between the oil pump and the block?


67Straightsix wrote:I'm also using arp studs which interferes with the oil pump body, so a spacer would solve both problems.



:nod:

its a little different with the early 200 becasue they have funny wieird a$$ under the plate outlets as opposed to the US style tall deck 200/250 outlets,

Image

its worse!

a) :duh: its the ARP studs that always hit the pump.

b) :duh:Most of us just attack the pump with a grinder....I'll bet you did when you did your 250. 62 Ranchero 200 did it to his.

Image

But that's what Ford US did when the 250 came out, dropped the oil pump down the stroke throw length, which is why the 5/16" drive is so much longer on a 250.


Here's my ole dirty 72 XA Falcon tall deck 200.

They shifted the pump down as well in our 1971 on engines, like your US 250, but for us it was to standardize on one type of block, and allow clear the optional 250 crank if so equiped. Sort of a 144 vs 170, 240 vs 300, 289 vs 302, 302C vs 351c, US 5.0 vs Aussie 5.6, 351m vs 400, 429 vs 460 Dive By Trucker "Stroker Ace" mentality that Ford has been so dang good at for so many years. At least with Ford, they didn't put 350 heads on the 305...Ford heads, asside from chamber cc between little and big Lo Po versions were basically all the same.

Image

Image


And '

c, :duh: the pickup pipe from a deep block engine is even easier to extend when most engineering shops have the pipe bender anyway.


But...



It's kinda wierd, but as long as 67Straightsix doesn't ruin the spagetti drive, he can do it all for 30 bucks, less his time for milling and screwing around with us. The only issu is if the hex drive is going to be man enough for the job, but Ithink its is, and if by machining the stuff around it, he can use a standard part, then maybee it'll be the best option.


And if 67Straightsix hits something with that sump, he'll need to call road construction.

Or hire himself out as a grader...
Last edited by xctasy on Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

67Straightsix
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Posts: 130
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Re: Oil pump spacer Question

Post #12 by 67Straightsix » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:21 am

If my only problem is the oil pick up I would have made one , how ever there are several problems that would be solved by using a spacer. I am not using a
distributor . The cam censer shaft that i am using is longer than stock . I've already listed my other concerns . One part corrects most of these problems.
It looks like the stock hex shaft is going to work .
I'm in the process of machining all the parts . I did a trial fit, every thing turned freely . It looks like it should work . I'll post pictures when finished.

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