dizzy help (looking for 1/4 drive upgrade distributor)

S

sivadmatt99

Active member
Hi i have recently purchased a 1963 falcon with a 170. The problem is it's an early 170 with a quarter inch oil pump drive in the guy who built it put a Carter carburetor on.I was very happy with classic inlines hei distributor I ran on a later 200 in a Ranchero I previously owned. So my question Ages is there a modification peoplr doing to shim or spacer the 5/16 drive down to 1/4 or is there a gear I can change to make the upgrade distributors work? It can be for dsll or hei or for other cars that get mod to work. At the end of the day i need to get a dizzy that dont need a spark control valve. any help links for past experience would be greatly appreciated.
Matt
 
You might be able to get a custom built 1/4 inch drive HEI try contacting C.I. To see if you can still get one. Another way would be to have a custom oil pump drive made (1/4 bottom 5/16 top). Also if you can find a 1968 up point distributor you could try swapping in your current 1/4 inch shaft with a bit of work. Or maybe the easiest and fastest is to just swap in the 200 oil pump then you can use any late 200 point type, DSII, or HEI distributor. Good luck :nod:
 
bubba22349":551iyqgi said:
You might be able to get a custom built 1/4 inch drive HEI try contacting C.I. To see if you can still get one. Another way would be to have a custom oil pump drive made (1/4 bottom 5/16 top). Also if you can find a 1968 up point distributor you could try swapping in your current 1/4 inch shaft with a bit of work. Or maybe the easiest and fastest is to just swap in the 200 oil pump then you can use any late 200 point type, DSII, or HEI distributor. Good luck :nod:
Click to expand...


thanks bubba22349 the motor was freshly rebuilt. So I'm not willing to drop the pan to do the pump.I didn't think about swapping the shaft or moding a o.e.m. I have a old stock dizzy a can part out. i'm thinking a trip to the salvage yard. I would like to end you with DSII. what is the 1968 distributor? (dose it have a vacuum advance)
 
Yes the points type distributors from 1968 to early 70's (they were used previous to the DSI electronic distributors) they also have both cent. and vac. advance. It's possible you can use an early 1/4 inch (LOD shaft) and mod it to work in later distributor, the upper part of the shaft would need to be changed to match a later shaft and for use with the centrical advance parts of the later type distributor (wether it's a Points or DSII type). This would be considered an advanced skills type project like building the custom oil pump drive shaft (1/4 to 5/16). I hear yah I also prefer to use the DSII when ever possible. Good luck :nod:

ReEdited Feb 3rd at 8:49PM
 
there are really only two ways to go here;

1: keep the stock distributor, and install a pertronix or other electronic ignition conversion

2: install a later 5/16 drive distributor and change the oil pump to match. this also entails punching out the hole the distributor shaft rides in to fit the later shaft.
 
rbohm":2ti6wckm said:
there are really only two ways to go here;

1: keep the stock distributor, and install a pertronix or other electronic ignition conversion

2: install a later 5/16 drive distributor and change the oil pump to match. this also entails punching out the hole the distributor shaft rides in to fit the later shaft.
Click to expand...


my current distributor has apetronix kit in it. The issue is it's designed for a spark control valve so I am receiving poor throttle response.
 
sivadmatt99":39tbt4sa said:
rbohm":39tbt4sa said:
there are really only two ways to go here;

1: keep the stock distributor, and install a pertronix or other electronic ignition conversion

2: install a later 5/16 drive distributor and change the oil pump to match. this also entails punching out the hole the distributor shaft rides in to fit the later shaft.
Click to expand...


my current distributor has apetronix kit in it. The issue is it's designed for a spark control valve so I am receiving poor throttle response.
Click to expand...

ok, but that does not mean what i wrote was wrong. the only way to eliminate the spark control valve is to go to a dual advance distributor, and ALL of the those entail swapping to the 5/16 oil pump drive shaft. and ALL US distributors that use the 5/16 drive shaft entail opening up the hole the distributor shaft rides in. if you can find an early electronic distributor from australia that uses the smaller distributor shaft, you can get away with not having to open up the shaft hole, but you still have to convert to the 5/16 pump shaft. or stay with what you have. the options remain the same.
 
rbohm":2upgzg02 said:
sivadmatt99":2upgzg02 said:
rbohm":2upgzg02 said:
there are really only two ways to go here;

1: keep the stock distributor, and install a pertronix or other electronic ignition conversion

2: install a later 5/16 drive distributor and change the oil pump to match. this also entails punching out the hole the distributor shaft rides in to fit the later shaft.
Click to expand...


my current distributor has apetronix kit in it. The issue is it's designed for a spark control valve so I am receiving poor throttle response.
Click to expand...

ok, but that does not mean what i wrote was wrong. the only way to eliminate the spark control valve is to go to a dual advance distributor, and ALL of the those entail swapping to the 5/16 oil pump drive shaft. and ALL US distributors that use the 5/16 drive shaft entail opening up the hole the distributor shaft rides in. if you can find an early electronic distributor from australia that uses the smaller distributor shaft, you can get away with not having to open up the shaft hole, but you still have to convert to the 5/16 pump shaft. or stay with what you have. the options remain the same.
Click to expand...

I was thinking after the help here. I would buy a 5/16 pump shaft and remove 1/32 for each side of the shaft most of the way down . Then drop a dsii or hei dizzy. Im still thinking of some type hat or spacer that could fit in the end of the dizzy shaft. Time will tell 7-10 for the pump shaft.
 
do yourself a favor, and follow what ford did. upgrade to the larger pump drive shaft to prevent future issues. the larger shaft is stronger and you avoid issues with the drive shaft twisting and breaking.
 
The advice given here is best.


All Ford hex drives are weak points when put underload, they are designed to be shear pins, which will stop the ignition if the pump is overloaded. The engineers did it that way on purpose.

The subsequent upgrades, you have to copy. When modifying something, Ford gave you a hymn list you can't pick and mix with. There's lots you can do, but do not alter the stock 5/16 or 1/4 drive to blend in with the 5/16, the strength is in the cross section and surface finish, and although you can shorten them, cut them down, or get another one from another Ford engine, and put in another pump from a different engine, you have to do it Fords way, or no way at all.Stress risers from machining, fileing, or reworking will make the shaft unreliable, and the engagemnt process will differ. These pieces aren't knicknamed Spagetti or MAcorni drives fro no reason. You should see what a high volume pump does to the drive of a 351 C NASCAR blocked endurance oFfroad engine. The Australians have abused these shaft drive systems in outback 1000 kilometer races, and replace them with 3/8" drive items, so reworking it to suit the original architecture is not the way forward.

The early 0.490-0.495 hole has to get routed out to 0.525-0.530, and a later distributer used, and your four bearing crankshaft will easily clear the later pump and you just have to use the right fasteners.
 
xctasy":38fc2nkl said:
All Ford hex drives are weak points when put underload, they are designed to be shear pins, which will stop the ignition if the pump is overloaded. The engineers did it that way on purpose.
Click to expand...

only one small flaw in that argument, and that is that the distributor is driven by the camshaft, so in th eoil pump shaft breaks, there is no oil pressure. the ignition still works.
 
rbohm":2ag9d49z said:
xctasy":2ag9d49z said:
All Ford hex drives are weak points when put underload, they are designed to be shear pins, which will stop the ignition if the pump is overloaded. The engineers did it that way on purpose.
Click to expand...

only one small flaw in that argument, and that is that the distributor is driven by the camshaft, so in th eoil pump shaft breaks, there is no oil pressure. the ignition still works.
Click to expand...



Ah, yeah. Sorry bout that. I was wrong.

I forgot, got mixed up with the oil pump siezure on another six i work on, the fiber geared Holden L6. Its designed to jam the cam, overload the fiber gear, and take the distributor out so no further damage occurs. The Big Six copies that process.
 
xctasy":1ttgng6r said:
The advice given here is best.


All Ford hex drives are weak points when put underload, they are designed to be shear pins, which will stop the ignition if the pump is overloaded. The engineers did it that way on purpose.

The subsequent upgrades, you have to copy. When modifying something, Ford gave you a hymn list you can't pick and mix with. There's lots you can do, but do not alter the stock 5/16 or 1/4 drive to blend in with the 5/16, the strength is in the cross section and surface finish, and although you can shorten them, cut them down, or get another one from another Ford engine, and put in another pump from a different engine, you have to do it Fords way, or no way at all.Stress risers from machining, fileing, or reworking will make the shaft unreliable, and the engagemnt process will differ. These pieces aren't knicknamed Spagetti or MAcorni drives fro no reason. You should see what a high volume pump does to the drive of a 351 C NASCAR blocked endurance oFfroad engine. The Australians have abused these shaft drive systems in outback 1000 kilometer races, and replace them with 3/8" drive items, so reworking it to suit the original architecture is not the way forward.

The early 0.490-0.495 hole has to get routed out to 0.525-0.530, and a later distributer used, and your four bearing crankshaft will easily clear the later pump and you just have to use the right fasteners.
Click to expand...

Ok i have seen the oil pump shaft fail on v8's build for racing.i didnt know about the a.u.z. went up to 3/8 or that old pump shaft was so weak. In my experience when pumps fail the shafts brake so the cam gear is not damaged. So if the 1/4 shaft is that weak (ford fail) or do i just need to keep it under 4200 rpm? Im having a heard time wrapping my mind around the fact that a 1/4 inch drive is that much weaker than a 5/16. All it has to do is spin the pump and i have rebuilt three small sixs all 100000 plus with the stock shaft and reinstall it
 
as long as there are no issues, the stock 1/4" pump shaft will suffice. but let a bit of debris get in the gears, or have anything cause too much extra drag on the oil pump, and the stock shaft twists like a pretzel. the nice thing is that the shorter the shaft, the harder it is to twist them. that said however, it is always better to upgrade the shaft, either in size or material, preferably both.
 
rbohm":35izsmgk said:
as long as there are no issues, the stock 1/4" pump shaft will suffice. but let a bit of debris get in the gears, or have anything cause too much extra drag on the oil pump, and the stock shaft twists like a pretzel. the nice thing is that the shorter the shaft, the harder it is to twist them. that said however, it is always better to upgrade the shaft, either in size or material, preferably both.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I have some stuff to try
 
sivadmatt99":3nkomc5p said:
xctasy":3nkomc5p said:
The advice given here is best.


All Ford hex drives are weak points when put underload, they are designed to be shear pins, which will stop the ignition if the pump is overloaded. The engineers did it that way on purpose.

The subsequent upgrades, you have to copy. When modifying something, Ford gave you a hymn list you can't pick and mix with. There's lots you can do, but do not alter the stock 5/16 or 1/4 drive to blend in with the 5/16, the strength is in the cross section and surface finish, and although you can shorten them, cut them down, or get another one from another Ford engine, and put in another pump from a different engine, you have to do it Fords way, or no way at all.Stress risers from machining, fileing, or reworking will make the shaft unreliable, and the engagemnt process will differ. These pieces aren't knicknamed Spagetti or MAcorni drives fro no reason. You should see what a high volume pump does to the drive of a 351 C NASCAR blocked endurance oFfroad engine. The Australians have abused these shaft drive systems in outback 1000 kilometer races, and replace them with 3/8" drive items, so reworking it to suit the original architecture is not the way forward.

The early 0.490-0.495 hole has to get routed out to 0.525-0.530, and a later distributer used, and your four bearing crankshaft will easily clear the later pump and you just have to use the right fasteners.
Click to expand...

Ok i have seen the oil pump shaft fail on v8's build for racing.i didnt know about the a.u.z. went up to 3/8 or that old pump shaft was so weak. In my experience when pumps fail the shafts brake so the cam gear is not damaged. So if the 1/4 shaft is that weak (ford fail) or do i just need to keep it under 4200 rpm? Im having a heard time wrapping my mind around the fact that a 1/4 inch drive is that much weaker than a 5/16. All it has to do is spin the pump and i have rebuilt three small sixs all 100000 plus with the stock shaft and reinstall it
Click to expand...


Desert racing forces cars to start in the freezing cold, by noon, the oil is flowing like water The are a number of Cleveland powered racing engines, and they upgrade the macorini drive to 3/8" I think. On sixes, it happens too, but less likely with the 5/16", the small 62.5 thou amount of extra metal cuts down the torsion effect a lot.
 
What is the diameter of the distributor shaft at the lower end where it goes onto the block??
Reason I ask i have a duraspark distributor shaft machined down to .465" at the lower end.
The oil pump shaft in the shaft is for a 5/16" oil pump drive.
Advise if interested. Bill
 
wsa111":2qrmm795 said:
What is the diameter of the distributor shaft at the lower end where it goes onto the block??
Reason I ask i have a duraspark distributor shonly machined down to .465" at with lower end.
The oil pump shaft in the shaft is for a 3/8" oil pump drive.
Advise if interested. Bill
Click to expand...

Sorry for the slow reply. I can check to night. The reason i was asking is the motor has a 1/4 oil pump drive And the carb is not stock. The dizzy is a vac only and would like to replace with soming better. then better carb (i will start a new thread).
 
Thanks 5/16" shaft size.
To repeat I have a Duraspark shaft with 5/16" oil pump drive. The shaft has been turned down to .465" in diameter.
Is that the diameter of the original 1/4" distributor??
If that is correct all one would have to do is install a later oil pump for the larger shaft, but the shaft diameter would fit the earlier block.
Advise, Bill
 
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