valvetrain issue update

C

cameljockey

Well-known member
some updates

The push rods popping out from under the rockers cause some damage to the bodies of the rocker arms.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/ ... .38.13.jpg

Also upon attempting a reinstall I stripped threads out of the pedestal bolt hole and needed to install aTime-Sert.

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/ ... .20.48.jpg

I may go ahead and drill out the rest of the pedestal holes and install Time-serts or even Keen-serts. Force of habit from my Aerospace Engineering job I don't like threading directly into aluminum. Not a Problem if you know what torque to use but woe is me I'm a dunce I forgot what that number was and the instructions I finally got from Yella Terra were woefully mum on that number.

But the instructions DID provide some insight on how to shim the rockers to get the right contact patch on the valve stem the current patches look like this which makes me think that that I truly truly botched the install and the shimming

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww7/ ... .37.24.jpg

I'm thinking of sending the rockers off to be disassembled cleaned and polished to relieve any stress risers before installing them again and following the blue-ing and contact patch method for geting the shaft heght correct I also worry that the springs I selected from Comp Cams might have to High of an open seat pressure. this combined with my maladjustment of the rocker might be collapsing the lifters and allowing the push rods to jump out.

any thoughts on the weird contact patches?

Keep Sixn

Dan
 
:unsure: Did you get this figured out yet? On the contact patch I don't see to much problem they look like they are all very close to center of valve stems. If you place a straight edge across all the tops of the valve stems is there a height difference? Good luck :nod:
 
I still haven't figured it out and I fear I might strip the threads on some of the other rocker arm pedestal bolt holes. The instructions I was finally able to get from Yella Terra are generic and don't give a torque for the adaptor bar bolts which is how I managed to strip the threads in the first place and very carefully installed a time-sert (would have preferred a keen-sert) I didn't do the initial install and adjustment with a solid lifter but rather with a hydraulic lifter. I think that is the main source of my woes as to that the master of shining the rockers which I didn't determine and the fact that I don't know if maybe the double wound springs I chose are maybe too stiff... There are too many variables... Does anyone know an expert in the orange county area in CA? I'm at my wits end here...
 
cameljockey":udsodjq3 said:
I still haven't figured it out and I fear I might strip the threads on some of the other rocker arm pedestal bolt holes. The instructions I was finally able to get from Yella Terra are generic and don't give a torque for the adaptor bar bolts which is how I managed to strip the threads in the first place and very carefully installed a time-sert (would have preferred a keen-sert) I didn't do the initial install and adjustment with a solid lifter but rather with a hydraulic lifter. I think that is the main source of my woes as to that the master of shining the rockers which I didn't determine and the fact that I don't know if maybe the double wound springs I chose are maybe too stiff... There are too many variables... Does anyone know an expert in the orange county area in CA? I'm at my wits end here...
Click to expand...

When no torque value is listed for a bolt then the fallback position is to use the recommended torque from a chart for the size bolt and threads per inch, in the link below you can look them up. Please note that the first two lines are listed as inch pounds if you don't have an inch pound torque wrench to use then you will have to look up the formula to convert inch pounds to foot pounds.

Bolt torque chart
https://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/p ... %20Gr9.pdf

Convert Inch Pounds to Foot Pounds
http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/in ... rsion.html

I would say that your push rod length looks very close by the wear patern showing on the top of the valve stems. Do you know what the recommended valve spring pressure's "seat and open, i.e. to highest lift" of your cams manufacture? If not you might check their web site or if you state brand and grind info here then someone can help you find out. As a starting point though you could remove the inner springs and try that first at least during the cam break in. Good luck :nod:
 
okay well I think it's time to go buy a new torque wrench my current one doesn't torque below 20 ft-lbs so yay new tools but I still wanna drill out the remainder of the bolt holes and put in Time - serts or Keen - serts. I didn't get a chance to work on my car this weekend. I also didn't get a chance to do the shimming and adjustment operation described in the generic instructions that came from Yella Terra. I don't wanna perform the adjustment described but without pulling the head. How can I collapse the hydraulic lifter to make it behave like a solid lifter? would that even work? I didn't get a chance to work on the engine this last weekend I will be wrenching on it this coming Saturday

Thanks for all the input
 
cameljockey":27va7x82 said:
okay well I think it's time to go buy a new torque wrench my current one doesn't torque below 20 ft-lbs so yay new tools but I still wanna drill out the remainder of the bolt holes and put in Time - serts or Keen - serts. I didn't get a chance to work on my car this weekend. I also didn't get a chance to do the shimming and adjustment operation described in the generic instructions that came from Yella Terra. I don't wanna perform the adjustment described but without pulling the head. How can I collapse the hydraulic lifter to make it behave like a solid lifter? would that even work? I didn't get a chance to work on the engine this last weekend I will be wrenching on it this coming Saturday

Thanks for all the input
Click to expand...

I don't have the Yells Terra instructions to check this so this may not be of much help. You can collapse a hydraulic lifter by turning the adjustment tighter this would eventually push the oil out of the lifter over time. The lifter has about .125 of travel so under some surcomstances you might not even be able to bottom it out. That said I don't know why you would want to do that as it would also change the rocker geometry, that is if your trying to measure or check for correct push rod length. If you had the lifter out you could shim the piston or the top so it did not collapse or use a sold lifter for measurments and then be able to get a correct push rod length. Good luck :nod: :nod:
 
Use Fords t71p-6513-a lifter bleed down tool to bottom out a lifter.

as recommended in Fords service manuals.

91800.jpg


http://www.toolsource.com/ford-tappet-b ... 91800.html

Then either grab a 1960-1963 pre hydraulic lifter, and use it for setting valve geometry, or add 125 thou to the bottomed out hydraulic lifter height by hand bleeding it yourself, or shimming it yourself. Hand bleeding is easiest. I'm fairly certain 125 thou is the blueprint solid level in operation, but it can work in transition from 25 to 125 thou before fully pumping up.


One of those types of lifters will get you the results you seek.


Note Well.

I'm sure you already know this, but a recap.

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17157

A HYDRAULIC LIFTER BECOMES SOLID IN OPERATION BECAUSE OF THE TRAPPED INCOMPRESSABLE OIL FROM THE EXIT BLOCKED BY CHECK BALL OPERATION. IT STARTS FROM BASE CIRCLE (REFIL) TO ON RAMP (LIFT).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lorANZ1Tptw
http://www.speednik.com/files/2013/03/5 ... onents.jpg
15-Exploded.jpg



"We know that the engine expansion rate depends on operating temperature. At normal operating temperature, the valve clearance has changed from the initial gap of 0.006" on a solid lifter engine to a smaller one. We know there is still a gap because we can hear it. How much gap and by what temperature only the engineers really knew. That gap is set to accommodate the ideal expansion and since the engine isn't at the ideal expansion at all time, the adjustment is imperfect especially at startup. The hydraulic valve train is designed to eliminate the gap at all engine temperatures: a more efficient design.

Instead of setting the valve lash to 0.006", the hydraulic adjusting screw makes contact with the valve stem and you turn the screw a couple turns and you're finished. No feeler gauges are required. The engine pumps the lifter full of oil and as the clearances of the engine parts change due to heating expansion, the lifter adjusts automatically. Besides fewer required valve adjustments it means less startup wear on the valve train compared to a solid lifter engine because the engine is adjusted at all temperatures not just when the engine is hot.

The lifter has four main components: the body, socket, plunger and valve mechanism. The body moves with the cam and the plunger/socket moves with the push rod. Riding between the two is the weak plunger spring and a cushion of oil. All of the cavities within the lifter are filled with engine oil.


The lifter gets pressurized by the oil gallery feeding the lifter bore only during the start of motion. The oil pressure is just enough fully engage the valve train but not enough to overcome the stiff valve spring and open the valve in the head: that's the job of the cam pushing on the lifter body.

There is a small valve in each lifter and the one illustrated is a check-ball design. The check-ball is held in place by a tiny spring and the motion of the lifter opens the check-ball cavity because inertia leaves the check ball behind but only for a brief moment.

When the cam pushes the lifter body upward, the plunger is held in place by the tension from the push rod and the valve cavity decreases in size slightly. The check-ball inside the valve is held in place by its support spring and pressure from the oil in the cavity forces the check ball forward which closes off the valve opening to the valve cavity. This traps incompressible oil in the valve cavity, causing the plunger assembly to move with the lifter body which moves the push rod and opens the valve in the head. After this point the lifter effectively becomes a solid lifter."


Copied from http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Hydrau ... #operation, eliminating any reference to "VW"
 
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