Cam problem

Econoline

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I need to use a different cam, don't want to really get into it why. Long story short, I'm going to sh*t can my cam. Which is to bad b/c it seems like a great profile for my setup, Erson 280101

I'm looking at the Schneider 262H. My concern is that I'm running an AOD w/ stock stall. I don't want any problems tuning. I want a good smooth idle, not a lot of lope. The LSA is 110 on this cam which brings the range into a better area for me but still a little high honestly, in my mind. I have 3.7:1 in the rear. Power brakes. Is this cam going to give me grief? Should I go with a 256/112? Van is 95% used around town or road trip. Little to no towing foreseen.

The engine is a 250, mildly ported C9 head, 1.75"/1.47" valves, 75# springs, stock exhaust manifold to 2.25" pipe into a 12" resonator and then dynomax single out, 1v RBS, 9.5:1 SCR, D dished pistons w/ .064" quench, 8.1-2~ DCR w/ those 2 cams. Was ~7.7 w/ the Erson cam. DCR drops .1 with the 262 but the range goes up 500-1000 rpm which I think is getting out of my use a bit?

Maybe I can get someone to regrind the Erson to the same specs or something a little better?

thank you

Seth
 
Econoline":120laphr said:
I need to use a different cam, don't want to really get into it why. Long story short, I'm going to sh*t can my cam. Which is to bad b/c it seems like a great profile for my setup, Erson 280101

I'm looking at the Schneider 262H. My concern is that I'm running an AOD w/ stock stall. I don't want any problems tuning. I want a good smooth idle, not a lot of lope. The LSA is 110 on this cam which brings the range into a better area for me but still a little high honestly, in my mind. I have 3.7:1 in the rear. Power brakes. Is this cam going to give me grief? Should I go with a 256/112? Van is 95% used around town or road trip. Little to no towing foreseen.

The engine is a 250, mildly ported C9 head, 1.75"/1.47" valves, 75# springs, stock exhaust manifold to 2.25" pipe into a 12" resonator and then dynomax single out, 1v RBS, 9.5:1 SCR, D dished pistons w/ .064" quench, 8.1-2~ DCR w/ those 2 cams. Was ~7.7 w/ the Erson cam. DCR drops .1 with the 262 but the range goes up 500-1000 rpm which I think is getting out of my use a bit?

Maybe I can get someone to regrind the Erson to the same specs or something a little better?

thank you

Seth

I'd PERSONALLY look at the cheepest Hi stall (F47 list) AOD converter. And look at a 250 dollar Transgo shift kit.

Ford made three "FACTORY" specs of AOD lock up clutch stall. First was the first 5.0 Panther 1650rpm converter, but the 4.9 big six used it too. (Aftermarket code is F52)

Then the 1250 rpm (aftermarket F52LS) for LTD/Crown Vic 351's and trucks with the AOD. A useless stump puller that's fine for a big truck.

Then the 2350 RPM (aftermarket F47), CFI 5.0 Mustang/Capri or some truck F150 5.0's


At the about $-180 to 199 buy now cost of an aftermarket F47 heavy duty converter, you get a 700RPM higher than stock spec 2.53:1, 2350 rpm stall 5.0 HO/5.0 EFI F truck, 5.8 E Van or some really early 3.8 AOD stall converter.

If you can find a good used one that hasn't been beaten on, you might spend less if its flushed and checked.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-AOD-High-S ... %3AMustang


F52 is the medium stall, ages old spec 2-bbl small block Ford used, similar to the Truck C4 and C5's and FMX's.

They were always 1650 rpm as measured with a 2-bbl 302. The up spec option for an AOD is the F47. Its stall spec (dating from the 1970 M code 351c 4v) was always the 2350 rpm stall converter, rated with an EFI or 4-bbl 351, or 2350 with a CFI (2-bbl so called 5.0) behind the AOD in 1984.

F52LS is a stump puller 5.8 truck converter, rated at about 1250 rpm


That's what I'd recommend, but I know you've decided to down grade to a lower duration cam, and that's fine.


Schneider Racing Cams do regrinds primarily. So your Sig Erson 280101could go to them, and get reground. They are one of the best around for fitting their profiles on stock cams. The problem with a 200 or 250 is the cam retard or advance. In most cases, the amount of advance is a lottery when the grinder fits the existing stock to the new grind master.

On a interferance engine like our 200's and 250's, there is a risk you'll have no option but one position for cam timing, especially on a 250, which is timed by the crank timing gear position, while the later 200's are retarded by the cam. You might find an offset keyway will still allow you to position the cam at an intake centerline of degrees (straight up in Fords pre emissions design speak) before top dead center, the ideal the factory used to set the dots before camshaft retarding occured in the 1972 250. Dot to dot setting on the timing gear then became retarded by two diiferent scenarios depending on engine type.

256S: 256/256 - 204/204 - .420/.420 - 112* they don't officially list rpm range but it is available on request
262D: 262/282 - 210/220 - .435/.450 - 110* they don't list rpm range but it is available on request

E280101 (also called RV10H)
Normal range 1250-4,300 rpm, Smooth idle, broad torque range cam for passenger cars, station wagons, pickups and RVs
280° IN SAE 208° IN 50 Thou 0.420" IN at Valve 111° LCA 4° Advance 0.000" IN Clearance
280° EX SAE 208° EX 50 Thou 0.420" EX at Valve 111° LCA 4° 111° LCA 4° Advance 0.000" IN Clearance

Sig_Erson_280101.jpg



Basically, the 110 lobe center is what was used with 256 to 264 degree cams with over 450 thou lift on cross flow engines down here. Even a 1-bbl 250 will cope with a lot of duration and lift, the 1-bbl carb is the same size inside as the 300 big six carb, and flows enough air to make 160 net horsepower if there are Falcon Six Performance Handbook style modifications.
 
Have a cam custom ground, I prefer Isky cams but there are a lot of good people out there. I run a custom ground Isky 256/262 Supercam on 108 LSA in my wife's automatic 1966 Coupe. The car has a very smooth 600rpm idle in gear with a stock converter. Tighter LSA's make better low and mid range power. If duration is not excessive and DCR is not too low a 108 LSA cam will idle nicely.

It is worth noting that a stock 250 camshaft is on a 107.5 LSA and has 256 advertised duration.
 
The converter I have has "F44" written on it? The 262 is a actually a 262/270. I like the idea of a 256/262 vega, that on 110 may work out well.
 
1hotvega":26lf6ed0 said:
Have a cam custom ground, I prefer Isky cams but there are a lot of good people out there. I run a custom ground Isky 256/262 Supercam on 108 LSA in my wife's automatic 1966 Coupe. The car has a very smooth 600rpm idle in gear with a stock converter. Tighter LSA's make better low and mid range power. If duration is not excessive and DCR is not too low a 108 LSA cam will idle nicely.

It is worth noting that a stock 250 camshaft is on a 107.5 LSA and has 256 advertised duration.
Excellent statement, there is a fine line on camshaft choice in the high 250's to 262 area as far as lobe center.
I run an Isky 262 with a 109 L/C. The idle quality really likes a loose converter.
The Clay Smith 264 needs a 112 L/C or your idle will be horrible.
All most everyone on this forum recommend a 108-110 L/C.
Apparently they have no experience in the real world with low L/C's on a vehicle with a stock converter.
The 250" engine will absorb a lot more camshaft than a 200 & below.
The 250 is a real six, you have to treat the 200 like a V-8 with a short stroke.
Choose your camshaft selection very carefully.
 
I think I'll give Schneider a call and try and figure it out.

X, I like your thinking I just don't have much dough left to sink into this girl, just need to get back on the road. But If the AOD ever needs work the shift kit and associated upgrades are definitely going in. Know anything about the F44 written on the torque converter? I'm not sure what that means if anything but I saw you reference an F47? I did a search but didn't come up with anything on F44. The trans came out of a late 80's Econoline, but I don't know what the engine was.

What do you think Bill? 256/262 111? 110?

Thanks for the help and the input guys, ahe appreciate it :)

I'm most likely going to a header at some point.
 
Econoline":2bge4006 said:
I think I'll give Schneider a call and try and figure it out.

X, I like your thinking I just don't have much dough left to sink into this girl, just need to get back on the road. But If the AOD ever needs work the shift kit is definitely going in. Know anything about the F44 written on the torque converter? I'm not sure what that means if anything but I saw you reference an F47?

What do you think Bill? 256/262 111?

Thanks for the help and the input guys, ahe appreciate it.
I really need the specs on the Schneider camshaft.
I would go with the 262-262 with a 112 L/C.
These phone monkeys do not live in the real world.
Be very cautious on your selection. As I said these phone monkeys do no live with their mistakes.
I curve distributors every day trying to help owners who were talked into a 108 L/C.
Post your choice & we will give you a professional opinion.
 
Believe me, I know all about the phone monkeys at this point. It's not just the monkeys on the phone.... It's crazy, I've sent this cam off twice, only paid shipping one way the last time for around $13 and still here I sit after months and months. Installing the damned thing 3 times now with the same problem. Which is a ground in bump on the first intake lobe that jumps to .008" ~90 deg before the lobe on the base circle, then ~40 deg later drops down to the last 50 deg @ .002" until the lobe ramp. Hydraulic cam. Pure laziness, incompetence and a general lack of integrity.

After Erson and another firm have had there hands on it. And that's about all I can say for what the did. I'll say it. I'm not moron, you know what I mean? I have the tools, I've measured it and examined it over and over and just wanted it fixed. I don't even want to have it reground actually b/c I had to use an offset key and jump a tooth to get it 3 deg advanced. It's supposed to be ground with 4 deg on the dots. I'm using the early timing set.

At least it didn't cost me to much $. But time is the most valuable thing I have. I'm out the cost of the cam and several months of stagnation............. got to pay bills, I don't think I expect to much. I'm pretty chill, but goddamn it
 
I am not sure about Schneider but Isky factors their advertised duration at .010, SAE is .006, Buick used to calculate theirs at .003. When you correct the Isky specs to .006 advertised duration is about 10 degrees higher then their quoted figure. My 256/262 supercam specs out at 264/271 when computing the advertised duration at .006. To say that duration or Lobe separation has an effect on idle quality is only telling half of the story, as it is the product of the two combined that determines the idle. Valve overlap is the single biggest factor in determining how an engine will idle. A stock 200 cam has about 33 degrees of overlap, a stock 250 cam has 40, my Isky cam has 50.5. From my experience anything over about 55 degrees is going to start to lope. Many people buy cams on advertised duration alone, if cam companies ground cams on tight LSA's the person who had to put the "280H" in an otherwise stock engine would have an un-driveable car. For this reason most off the shelf cams are on 110+ LSA's with advance ground in to bring back some low end torque that is lost with the wider LSA.

Some engines really like wide 112-114 LSA's, typically these are motors with excellent flowing heads something that a Ford six is not blessed with. With poor flowing heads tightening the lobe separation will increase low speed torque and drive ability especially in a heavy van. So long as the overlap is kept in the 40 to 50 degree range a cam on 108LSA will idle just as good as one on 110's or 112's, and it will make more power where you need it. Ford spent a lot of money to design the OEM cam for these engines and there was a reason for the 107.5 LSA.

If you really need cam advice the cam grinders do have some knowledgeable people. Definitively bypass the counter/shipping receiving guy answering the phone. When you call Schneider cams, talk to Jerry Cantrell. He is the owner and he's been grinding cams for over 40 years, the man really knows his stuff. At Iskenderian Cams, Ron Iskenderian is there almost everyday most of the time you need to leave a message for him but he is excellent about calling back.
 
Nice advice 1hotvega. You are right, SAE is 10 thou, and in practice, the ramp is often 6 thou lash hydraulic. And it makes a difference to generic Ford cams as per /viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71872

Econoline
Type 5 256 degree cam in the 73-74 200 I6 versions. The 69-74 250 I6 got the same 256 degree cam with built in retard for some years. All later Australian log, 2v 250, and non XF EFI cross flows. The stock Aussie 302C 2V, 351C 2V, 351M 2V and 400 2-bbl and 4-bbl were all listed as having the same Type 5 256 degree cams. NB// US 250'S got a different cam profile to the US 200, this wasn't the case in Australia. The cam was never retarded for emissions in Australia, either.

Type 12 is the Australian X-flow XF EFI cam, adv264/264, 196/196@0.050", 109LSA .439"/.439"IN. 24/60EX.60/24


44A is the standard 1980-93 w/ 302, 3.8L, 4.6L, 5.0L Engines converter.


The 1980-93 w/ 351, 4.9L Engines run a 7A, 14A, 15A code. I understood that the 1650 rpm stall ratio was the 5.8 FMX and C4 and Australlian 4.9 liter Cleveland and Windsor c7/C8/C9/C10 bellhousing C4 transmission. They come out and say what the stall ratio is in the 1980 XD Falcon Ford Elergy workshop manual. The Big Sixes F100/F150 4.9 says low stall, so it might be that. The stall ratings are arbitrary unless you hook it up to a rated electric induction motor, but those are the figuresd I have.


2350 rpm is the AOD 1984-1985 CFI/1986 onwards Fox EFI 5.0 rating. Transtar have a rang of values, Ford stated a nominal value for application, a blue print value from enginnering which may not have been adheared to in practice.

Search for the Transtar 2012 Torque Converter Catalogue.


pages 72 to 76 of the 342 pages give you the clues to what standard pitch Ford used on the C4 and C5 to get various stall ratios.


On AOD's are on page 65.

and there later electrnic and wide ratio versions of it on 66-67.

related:


https://www.transtar1.com/download.ashx ... g_2012.pdf

the most comprehensive guide to torque converters
in the automotive industry

2012 editions by Transtar Industries, Inc., 7350 Young Drive, Cleveland,
Ohio, 44146, U.S.A.

AOD_Torque_Converters_1of2.jpg
AOD_Torque_Converters_2of2.jpg
 
You know Bill, you warned me about Erson. And I've just beat my head against the wall with this damned thing :banghead:
 
1hotvega":prmeqhc6 said:
I am not sure about Schneider but Isky factors their advertised duration at .010, SAE is .006, Buick used to calculate theirs at .003. When you correct the Isky specs to .006 advertised duration is about 10 degrees higher then their quoted figure. My 256/262 supercam specs out at 264/271 when computing the advertised duration at .006. To say that duration or Lobe separation has an effect on idle quality is only telling half of the story, as it is the product of the two combined that determines the idle. Valve overlap is the single biggest factor in determining how an engine will idle. A stock 200 cam has about 33 degrees of overlap, a stock 250 cam has 40, my Isky cam has 50.5. From my experience anything over about 55 degrees is going to start to lope. Many people buy cams on advertised duration alone, if cam companies ground cams on tight LSA's the person who had to put the "280H" in an otherwise stock engine would have an un-driveable car. For this reason most off the shelf cams are on 110+ LSA's with advance ground in to bring back some low end torque that is lost with the wider LSA.

Some engines really like wide 112-114 LSA's, typically these are motors with excellent flowing heads something that a Ford six is not blessed with. With poor flowing heads tightening the lobe separation will increase low speed torque and drive ability especially in a heavy van. So long as the overlap is kept in the 40 to 50 degree range a cam on 108LSA will idle just as good as one on 110's or 112's, and it will make more power where you need it. Ford spent a lot of money to design the OEM cam for these engines and there was a reason for the 107.5 LSA.

If you really need cam advice the cam grinders do have some knowledgeable people. Definitively bypass the counter/shipping receiving guy answering the phone. When you call Schneider cams, talk to Jerry Cantrell. He is the owner and he's been grinding cams for over 40 years, the man really knows his stuff. At Iskenderian Cams, Ron Iskenderian is there almost everyday most of the time you need to leave a message for him but he is excellent about calling back.

The two times I have called schnieder, Jerry answered the phone directly, and he seems to know his cams...
 
Thanks Rich, good to hear. I'm loving your build, can't wait to see it come together. Ever catch any of the kokanee in the lakes down there?
 
Econoline":2309conf said:
Thanks Rich, good to hear. I'm loving your build, can't wait to see it come together. Ever catch any of the kokanee in the lakes down there?

Not much into fishing anymore, but do like getting drug around the lake by the boat (on a ski), I also haul car trailer, etc, just used the boat as an example of what I expect out of my van, not that I need to do it often...
 
I finally had a minute to call Schneider Cams. We came up with a 204/208 duration cam iirc. I'll finally be able to get it in there and fire it off. It's been a long road
 
I remember the specifics of the cam they're grinding for me. It's adv. 256/262, 204/208 duration @ .050" And I think 112 LSA. Lift is .420"/.435"
 
:beer: sounds like it's going to be a good grind for that Econoline! What else are you doing on your build? Any port work to the head? Good luck :nod:
 
bubba22349":ge9w7uau said:
:beer: sounds like it's going to be a good grind for that Econoline! What else are you doing on your build? Any port work to the head? Good luck :nod:

Yeah, there wuz 'port work'. He showed a pic here a mo. ago…
It looked like more than the 'mild clean up" he described but I'm not really qualified to comment.
Ask 4 a pic, I believe I saw 1 on another thread (along w/ 1 other member's).
I requested these cuz I have some hand arthritis and 1) don't want too much pain;
2) realize U can go overboard (beginner like me can do damage &
there is a point that there are diminishing returns to more work).
 
Yes the motor is in the van, I have it almost wired, linkage is hooked up, fuel line. Missing a radiator hose and some odds and ends, getting close to firing it off.

vr2Jx8.jpg


EmYrLO.jpg


UpDYD1.jpg
 
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