Weber 38/38 DGS tuning help

Hey all new user to the form!

Anyways i was wondering if you guys would be able to help me with a lean issue i have been having with the car (im using a wideband sensor)


About the engine

Classic In lines Aluminum Head (non ported)
264/264-110 Cam
1.65 Ratio Rocker
DUI Distributor
Timing idle 12-14 deg
Total Timing ~3000 rpm 40 deg
vacuum > 15 in hg
Carter 4070 fuel pump (4psi ~80 gal/hr)(.5" fuel line)
3.3 Inline 6 (200) ~1967-1968
87 octane fuel
stock compression ratio (8.7.1 i believe)
Compression in all cylinders > 120PSI

Weber 38/38 DGS(electric choke)


Anyways i just bought the performance jetting kit and im still running lean!

My current jets are 160 Mains (from 145)
.60 main/secondary idle (from .45)
170 air corrector (same)
Stock Emulsion tube (i believe F50)

My afr has gotten better
My cruise afr is 15.5-16.6 (from 17-18)
My idle afr is 19 (from 21) <- still need to tune the .60 idle jet
however it still falls flat on its face under W.O.T. and its afr jumps to 22.4 (and will slowly come down to around 18)
With the jetting kit i can feel a performance increase in the 2000-3000 rpm range but its still to lean


My question is, do i need to change my emulsion tube or purchase a sweep of main jets ranging from 180-190 or is there a general setup that works???


Thanks in advanced!
 
The DGES/DGAS 34 or 38 carb was just like the 38 DG_S used in US TVR 3000 M, S and Taimer's. Basic issues are flaot set, up, PCV valve, and only then would you look for different emulsions. Details below sould hellp. Swanson454 on the Jeep Forum found that the float set up needs to be done right.



/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=73925&p=574647#p574647


xctasy":3k727867 said:
Its not your fault. The info you have is wrong. And there might be a PCV issue with regard to the breather port some 38DGES carbs had.


You have to be so very, very carefull with aftermarket Webers which are sourced from some suppliers...they are very different. Each letter variation means something. Your carb isn't a staged mechanical secondary carb like:-

The 1st Weber 32/36 DFAV begat the 28 versions of the US made Holley Weber 52xx and 65xx series, or
the five versions of the Weber 32/36 DGAV. Each one looks the same, but are as different internallay as a bicycle is to a motorbike

Since a Weber 38DGES isn't a staged secondry carb like the 34 variations above , the set up instructions you are using are TOTALLY wrong. Your carb was designed as a 2-bbl simultanous opening carb, although there are some really bad slotted DGAV conversion kits which turn a 38 into a staged carb.

The good news is that from Novemer 1971 to late 1997, for 27 years, there were 27 and 29 mm venturi Weber 38 DGAS carbs in use for the 138 hp 2994 cc engine. It is a water operated choke version of the 38 DGES, just like yours. The details on it are here.

http://www.redlineweber.com/html/Tech/3 ... unning.htm

38DGAS Tuning


CARBURETOR SET UP AND LEAN BEST IDLE ADJUSTMENT

Base line Settings

Speed Screw 1/2 turn in

Mixture Screws 1 turn out

Final Settings Engine Running

Mix______

Speed_____

38-dgas_tunning_pict.gif



It is important to verify all linkage and levers are installed without binding and the linkage opens to full throttle and closes to the Idle Speed Screw. The number one and two reasons for tuning errors are improper linkage installations and over tightened linkage nut, causing a binding in linkage assembly.



CALIBRATIONS MAY VARY DUE TO REGIONAL FUELS AND STATE OF ENGINE TUNE AND PERFORMANCE. POOR RUNNING DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN A BAD OR POORLY ADJUSTED CARBURETOR. AN ADVANTAGE OF THE WEBER CARBURETOR IS ITS EASE OF ADJUSTMENT AND TUNING.



SET UP ADJUSTMENTS

1. Start set up by confirming carb base line settings. Do not depend on the existing settings.

2. All settings are done with choke disengaged or warmed up so that the choke is fully opened and disengaged. This is done on automatic choke carburetors by first opening the choke butterfly by hand and inserting a wood block or wedge of some kind to hold open while the linkage is cycled (linkage operated through its full movement ) to clear the choke cam. (You will hear a metallic click as the choke cam is released. You can check the choke fast Idle screw under the choke assembly to confirm that it is not in contact with the choke fast idle cam.)

3. Set the Idle Speed Screw by backing out the Idle Speed Screw until it is not in contact with the throttle stop lever. Cycle or Snap the linkage again to be sure that the linkage comes to close without any assistance. (Checking for linkage bind) Now bring screw back into contact with the lever and continue to open or screwing in, no more than 1/2 turn in, maximum.

4. Set the mixture screws by turning each screw in until it lightly seats. DO NOT FORCE OR BIND AS THIS WILL CAUSE DAMAGE TO THE SCREW AND IT’S SEAT IN THE BODY OF CARBURETOR. Back out the screw 1 full turn.

TUNING:

1. BE SURE TO FOLLOW THE NEXT INSTRUCTIONS IN THE PROPER SEQUENCE, DEVIATION WILL CAUSE THE CARBURETOR TO NOT FUNCTION TO ITS IDEAL SPECIFICATIONS AND MAY NOT PROVIDE THE PERFORMANCE AND FUEL ECONOMY AS DESIGNED.

2. Start the engine, the engine will run very slowly more like a tractor. As long as the engine stays running idle speed is not important at this point.

3. The first thing, do not set “up” the idle speed, set the Idle mixture screw to lean best idle setting. First, turn in the mixture screw until the engine dies or runs worse, then back out the screw (recommend turning ¼ at a time). The engine should pick up speed and begin to smooth out. Back out 1/4 turn more, or until the screw does nothing or runs worse then turn back to the point where it ran its best.

4. Use your ear, not a scope or tuning instruments at this point. You want to tune the engine by sound. Adjust to best, fastest and smoothest running point.

5. Now that the mixture screw is at its best running location, you can adjust the Idle speed the screw. The idle speed screw will be sensitive and should only take ¼ turn to achieve the idle speed you like.

6. Check and set idle to your driving preference. Put the car in gear and apply slight load, (AC on) and set the Idle as you like it. Don’t set it too high, as this will cause causes excessive clutch and brake wear. The Idle only needs to be 650 to 800 RPM with light load or AC on.

7. Recheck timing and vacuum hook ups. Recheck mixture screw to lean best idle again. If all is still best and smoothest idle then confirm and note the final settings.

8. To confirm settings with the engine running. Start by screwing in the mixture screw and count the number of turns it takes to bottom out and note if the engine dies. If Idle Mixture screws are with in ½ turn of base line setting then all is well. Also check the speed screw and note how many total turns from initial contact. You may have opened (turned in) the speed screw. Your final setting should be under 3/4 turn in. Reset the screws (back in) to the best final settings (Per your notes) and go on a test drive. If the settings are other than described then you may want to recalibrate the Idle circuit (low speed circuit) to your engines needs. This is done by following the rule of thumb BELOW.

Simple Rules for low speed calibration

If the mixture screw is more than 11/2 turns out turns then the Idle jet is too lean (too small). When the mixture screw is ½ turn or less, then the Idle jet is too rich (too large). These assumptions are based on the fact that the speed screw setting is not opened more than 1/2 turn in. If the speed screw has to be opened1/2 or more turns then this is also an indication of a lean condition usually requiring greater change. At times it may appear to be showing signs of richness or flooding it is really a lean condition. Please understand the need to keep throttle plate as near to closed as possible so as not to prematurely expose the transition holes. This is what causes the visible rich condition, and confirms the need to increase the jet size. JET KITS are available if needed.

EXAMPLE With the idle speed screw set at no more than 1/2 turn in after contact with the stop lever; and the best idle occurring with the idle mixture screw set at 1 1/2 turns from lightly seating, indicates the need for a larger Idle jet. Achieving the best idle at less than 1/2 turn indicates the need for a smaller idle jet.

REDLINE
19688 Van Ness Ave Torrance, CA 90501
800-733-2277 Press Option 3

REDLINE is a division of WORLDPAC


The REDLINE Difference
http://www.REDLINEWEBER.com e-mail redline@redlineweber.com
Home

Use the TVR 3000M, Taimar, and 3000S set-up details, which used the 38DGAS from 1977 to 1980 in US emissions form. Its basically a desmogged 138 hp Essex 60 degree V6 which used some Cologne 2800 V6 emissions bits. That engine is a United Kingdom 2994 cc 60 degree V6 carb, which was used on Granda GXL's and Capri II and III's, as well as South African Cortina XR6 's and Sierra XR6's. The South Africans used it till 1997 with a 38DGAS.


Weber has tuning data for it.

It has tamper proof idle setiings, so you can't benchmark the right settings without breaking the seals. The 38DGAS and 38 DGES are basically the same, but the float levels have to be right, the Emulsion tubes have to be F50's and the main jets 142/145 mains 185/185 air correctors, and the fuel supply on that carb had a bleed back system with a return line, so you have to duplicate it with a Holley fuel pressure regulator Follow these set up instructions. If using a Postive Crank Case Ventilation valve, it has to be dampened with two of the baffels found in later Ford rocker cover gaskets, and the PCV has to have a restriction spring on it so the float level doesn't suffer surging hydraulic engergy line influence.

South African Fords:
Cortina XR6/30S/granada 3.0:

45 idles
4.0 Aux venturis
55 accelerator pump jets
142 mains
185 airs

XLE cortina:
45 idles
4.0 Aux venturis
55 accelerator pump jets
145 mains
185 airs


Reliant Scimitar (running Ford Capri/ Granda 3.0 L v6 engine):

SE5/5a/SE6/6a 38DGAS 3A:
145 mains
45 idles
60 (Overdrive Dadenham 4 speed) or 70( C4 AND BW35 automatic) accelerator pump
185 airs correction jet
F50 emulsion tube

Ford capri 3.0:
Main Venturi 27
Aux. Vent. 4.0
Main Jet 145
Emulsion Tube F50
Air Correc. 185
Idle Jet 45
Pump Jet 70
Pump Bleed 30(1)
Needle Valve 250
Float Level * 40/52.5,<---- the details you should use if your floats are brass

For 38 DGAS 6C carb, 3.0 litre European spec Capri OEM jetting was......
27mm choke (main venturi, fixed)
4.0 aux. venturi
142 main jets
185 air correctors
F50 emulsion tubes
45 idle (slow running) jet
55 pump jet (no pump bleed info listed)
2.50 needle valve (gas inlet).


Float level varies with type. There are three kinds of float, and four kinds of settings.
 
Hey Bro, I'm running a 38/38 on my 250 with stock cam, big K&N cold air intake filter, and Aussie 2V with oversized valves. Here's what I'm running right now:

Idle Jets: 45s (1.75 turns out on both needles)
Main Jets: 145s (started with 147s, still slightly rich, I'll likely drop to 143s. Weber recommends 142s to start.)
Air Corrector Jets: 200s (may drop to 190s when I go to 143 main jets. Weber recommends main jet size + 50 to start)
Emulsion Tubes: F50s (I think)
Minimum Float Height: 44mm without the gasket (48mm is the lowest you can go, which touches the bottom of the bowl)
Maximum Float Height: 32mm without the gasket
Accelerator Pump Jet Nozzle: 0.70 dual outlet (I think, but I haven't experimented with other pump nozzle sizes yet)

I need more info on your motor:

What head are you running?
Does it have oversized valves?
What kind of float are you using?
How are you measuring min/max float level?
What size accelerator pump jet nozzle are you using?

Field those questions first and then we can go from there.

Tim
 
Hockey911":283jwi7h said:
Hey all new user to the form!

Anyways i was wondering if you guys would be able to help me with a lean issue i have been having with the car (im using a wideband sensor)


About the engine

Classic In lines Aluminum Head (non ported)
264/264-110 Cam
1.65 Ratio Rocker
DUI Distributor
Timing idle 12-14 deg
Total Timing ~3000 rpm 40 deg
vacuum > 15 in hg
Carter 4070 fuel pump (4psi ~80 gal/hr)(.5" fuel line)
3.3 Inline 6 (200) ~1967-1968
87 octane fuel
stock compression ratio (8.7.1 i believe)
Compression in all cylinders > 120PSI

Weber 38/38 DGS(electric choke)


Anyways i just bought the performance jetting kit and im still running lean!

My current jets are 160 Mains (from 145)
.60 main/secondary idle (from .45)
170 air corrector (same)
Stock Emulsion tube (i believe F50)

My afr has gotten better
My cruise afr is 15.5-16.6 (from 17-18)
My idle afr is 19 (from 21) <- still need to tune the .60 idle jet
however it still falls flat on its face under W.O.T. and its afr jumps to 22.4 (and will slowly come down to around 18)
With the jetting kit i can feel a performance increase in the 2000-3000 rpm range but its still to lean


My question is, do i need to change my emulsion tube or purchase a sweep of main jets ranging from 180-190 or is there a general setup that works???


Thanks in advanced!

Sounds kinda like a vacuum leak, and not a small one... is your PCV valve working/correct? Does the car have power brakes (is the booster bad)?
 
x2 Rich... so much easier to tune with a vacuum gauge and plug reading. My new jets just came in, but I don't have time to mess with 'em. :(
 
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