gm 4 pin hei trouble shooting help

well I did test out the 12v test light procedure. and it tested okay on the 4 pin module....

So maybe need a nother coil....the late model e coil.

the reading on this blaster coil are 1.5ohm primary + to negative each on the sides of this blaster 2 coil which is supposed to read .07 ohm resistance.

maybe no good. what coil would be a good one?
 
"...what coil would be a good one…"
I'd just use a good oil filed, metal cased, standard grade coil (if DS II/HEI)
w/auto magnetic controll & the clips that hold the horseshoe frm the DSII.
I'd mount it away frm the heat (oe is on the motor I believe). 8mm sprial coil
wires, I guess the coil has 50,000 - 65,000 (volts amps or whatever is the ele term).
The coils w/the threaded posts/nuts (-/+) R for the older points style distrub.
 
very good article below on this and test several combinations of mismatched coils and modules from different manufactures. most are no problem but it does say not to use a oil filled.



"Myth 2: Internal coils (in-the-cap) are prone to overheat.
This is probably the oldest HEI myth of all. Actually, an HEI draws only 2- to 3-amps, compared to the approximate 6-amps an external oil-filled coil draws. The lower amperage draw results in a much cooler running HEI coil. HEI Coils also run cooler because they are encapsulated in thermal epoxy, which dissipates heat more efficiently than oil-filled coils. The solid epoxy, in comparison to oil-filled coils also eliminates the possibility of leaks. You can also lose some spark intensity when you run a coil wire to an external oil-filled coil as the voltage has to travel a longer path, creating more resistance."
-http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-0606-hei-distributors/

most likely the last time I ran it before getting the custom built Ds2 ran it and shut it off but do remember the coil temp was really high so as it cooled off it must have been to hot and fried it so hopefully this will help and going to try a camero 1987 v6 unit

QUote below is -http://cyberdave.org/HEICoilInfo.html
2. As far as I can tell the old 4-pin GM HEI modules were internally limited to about 5 amps total current flow, and had a fixed minimum dwell of some 3+ms. The dwell is probably the source of the mythical "4500 rpm limit" attributed to the stock V8 HEI distributors, at least with the coils of that era.

3. Replacement 4-pin modules from MSD, Accel, etc have an advertised 7.5 amp current limit. I believe this is the 'extra energy' they advertise over stock GM parts. (They probably also use a smaller min dwell time, but I don't know exactly what.)

4. The current in the switching module affects the energy in the coil primary to the second power: If I remember my EE courses correctly, energy in an inductor = 1/2 L*I*I.

HEI Coils:

There are several after-market coils that seem to be oriented toward the higher current capabilitiy of newer ignitions. I note the Jacobs C4 coil has advertised primary characteristics that give a saturation time of ~2.4ms (@ 7.5 amps - storing ~112 mJ). There are other coils that might be able to throw off similar energy within the single-coil V8 time constraint - a brief comparison is given below.

Coil saturation time is taken from:

[ t = - LN(1 - (IR/V)) * (L/R) ]

where t = time
LN = Natural Log
I = current (pick a max value)
R = coil primary resistance
V = Voltage (can vary, especially during starting)
L = coil primary inductance

For further reading there was an SAE paper from GM that dealt with HEI design (SAE 750346 -- HEI-A New Ignition System Through New Technology).

Coil Voltage (advertised as 'high performance' or 'hotter' coils):

The HEI information above doesn't speak to secondary voltage in the coil, but if anyone is interested there is a depiction of the general case here:
http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/DavidKucharczyk/spark.jpg

A short discussion of voltage & field density is here:
http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/DavidKucharczyk/ignition.html

A short discussion of arc time and current is here:
http://www.daytona-twintec.com/tech_ignition.html



Secondary voltage (referencing the MSD-5900 example circuit) is induced by the collapse of the magnetic field in the coil primary. That voltage follows something like V= L* dI/dT; and is multiplied by the turns ratio of the secondary/primary windings. As far as I can tell, the stock GM HEI coils used about 85:1 for this ratio. The energy transferred from the primary winding to the secondary depends on how the coil was made and the properties of the core.

The stock coil does a pretty good job as designed, but dumps energy above ~4000 rpm.
The C4 coil gives the most constant power up to 6000 rpm (if the specs are real) with a HIGH CURRENT feed.
The Jacobs can-type or the Blaster SS look like a reasonable choice for an external coil, especially if you are using a GM HEI module.


this was a good article so Looks like the blaster ss may be a good choice as even though the stock gm coil has the correct .05 ohm primary resistance it may not perform optimal above 4000rpm

I think my coil draws to much current for the stock 4 pin module to handle since it needs a low amperage draw coil under 5amps
 
sorry, just skipped to the end (it's after midnite):

...module to handle since it needs a low amperage draw coil…"
Go 4 it! I got straight DSII goin on here. Your info will assist when I switch after
the "ford box" goes.
Thank you for the post.
 
I was going to try a stock unit but my power band is supposedly up to 5500 rpm so I dont want to run a stock gm coil since they can loose power up to 4000 rpm and above. I will be trying the blaster ss coil 8207 MSD mounted off the engine. will get a go at it this weekend for sure.
 


THis seems to be my exact wiring set up and no it is not getting voltage to the coil?
if i go by this online directions(30 to battery with 10 amp fuse, 85 and 86 are the relays coil wiring which would be reverse of this diagram above, 87 is going to pin B on the 4 pin module which when it gets 12v switched from ignition would get full battery power as the car is in run position. Last pin 87A is wired to the coil which means means when the car is off and ignition is in off position that means 12v from the battery is left on the coil + which would fry it......and vice versa when pin 87A is on with key in run it would then be giving no power to the ignition coil. how is that wiring diagram correct???? i dont see how this Bosch 30 amp five pin relay would possibly function correct for this application.

-a standard bosch-style relay will have 4 or 5 numbered leads (30, 85, 86, 87, and sometimes 87a). why they picked those numbers, I have no clue; but I can tell what they hook up to.

-30 = constant [positive (+)] power (usually wired directly to car battery)
-85 = coil ground (wired to the negative (-) battery terminal or any grounded metal panel in the car)
-86 = coil power (wired to the control source. could be a switch, or it could be the car's IGN or ACC circuit.)
-87 = switched [positive (+)] power output. (when the relay coil is powered, lead/pin 87 is connected to lead/pin 30)
-87a = [on 5 lead/pin relays only] this lead/pin is connected to lead/pin 30 when the coil is NOT powered.
 
I feel like I should forget pin 87a from the above diagram and wire both into the power out position from 87 terminal so that both the 4 pin circuit B and coil are wired together like they normally would be if there was no relay.

at that point the relay should be giving off battery power and switched power to make this work!
 
honestly getting no where with this. Had it running then swapped it out for a re curved unit.

it should have been plug and play.

so now ive replaced the coil.

what are the chances the module had gone bad? it seems to check out from the test light B to C lamp 12v (if lamp lights module is bad)
then jump B & G lamp on OK. those both check out....


And I rewired it all with 10 gauge wire. still no spark.....there has been some type of voltage drop maybe from the igntion and now with the relay wired in.

the battery is reading 12.69 volts and I can only get 12.41 to the coil so something is possibly not right? BUt again nothing had changed from when I was using it last.
 
I seem to be getting good voltage to the coil now 12.61. I have to believe its been the ac delco module giving me these problems from the start of this thread....I did this test and the light goes on steady but no blinks at all.

2. Connect the ground side of your test lamp to the battery POSITIVE cable. Probe the TACH terminal on the dist. cap while a helper attempts to start the engine. The test lamp should blink repeatedly as the engine cranks. No blink= bad module or pickup coil. Further testing is required to pinpoint the problem. Blink but no spark = bad ignition coil.



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The way the wiring diagram is with the relay, the coil is always on with the ignition switch "OFF". When you turn the ignition switch to "ON" it switches the module on, but turns off power to the coil. It can't run that way and the coil will get hot and drain your battery when the switch is off.

Here's what I would do:

1. If you want to keep the relay, move the coil "+" wire to Pin 87 on the relay along with the module. Then both the coil and the module get switched ON together. OR;

2. Get rid of the relay. Hook the module B-terminal to the "+" side of the coil. Run your ignition switch to the "+" side of the coil. Then when you turn the key on, both are on. You just need to make sure you have full 12V from the ignition switch and there's no ballast wire in that circuit.
 
MustangSix":1t4o27zu said:
The way the wiring diagram is with the relay, the coil is always on with the ignition switch "OFF". When you turn the ignition switch to "ON" it switches the module on, but turns off power to the coil. It can't run that way and the coil will get hot and drain your battery when the switch is off.

Here's what I would do:

1. If you want to keep the relay, move the coil "+" wire to Pin 87 on the relay along with the module. Then both the coil and the module get switched ON together. OR;

2. Get rid of the relay. Hook the module B-terminal to the "+" side of the coil. Run your ignition switch to the "+" side of the coil. Then when you turn the key on, both are on. You just need to make sure you have full 12V from the ignition switch and there's no ballast wire in that circuit.


Well i would like to keep the relay as I was getting a reading of only 10.8v while cranking so I think it needs to have battery voltage in the mix.

I tried that set up you listed in step #1 as those where my thoughts. I dont believe it works that way either. Is there a definate known way to wire in the relay? So strange that that diagram a few posts back; specifically for wiring the ds2 and relay is not correct.....

Any other ideas before I go back Step #2 quoted above?
 
I supposed I could put a switch in line somewhere.......over the rainbow. there seems to be an evil spell like in wizard of oz when the wicked witch of the west puts the tin man, the lion and scare crow asleep in the poppy field...yes poppies...

how about if I straight wire it no relay and put a switch to the positive battery in that line also. to parrallel the ignition 12v switch and then just flip the added battery power off after starting?

how about negatives to battery post. I believe even with HEI systems some people still have to wire in a line to the battery negative but not sure on when that is really necessary.
 
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