Need help with pinging issue.

I got my van on the road over the weekend and have noticed it is pinging under light load. I think part of the problem is that the AOD is shifting to soon and lugging the engine when going up any kind of grade. This is happening at low speed. I have filled it with premium now and it may have helped slightly, but it is still pinging when it gets bogged by the trans. I have been slowly increasing the tension on the tv cable trying to move the shift points up a bit. I started out with it set to 0 then 35 with the 5/16 spacer in, in nuetral. Then I went to 2-3 psi, then yesterday I turned the adjuster a little bit tighter, but haven't hooked the gauge back up. The shifts aren't hard so I assume it's not to high yet. I may try and tighten up a bit more.

The engine is a 250, SCR is ~9.5:1, DCR is ~8:1. I'm at sea level. Rear end is 3.7:1. The initial timing is set 12 deg advanced, around 32-34 total.

I haven't checked the plugs yet, but it seems to be good. Btw, the spark plugs are 1 level colder than stock. Engine idles great, starts perfectly, doesn't run hot. No pinging at any throttle with no load.

So earlier today I rechecked the timing and it is all the same. I checked total timing with the vacuum advance hooked up and it get's up to 50 and 3000+ rpm or so. As an experiment I disconnected the vacuum line from the carb and plugged it, drove it around all morning, going up grades ect and no more pinging! It's hooked to ported vacuum, I don't have a way to hook it up to manifold vacuum right now so I haven't tried that yet. What I don't understand is why the vacuum advance is putting in so much advance at high throttle? I thought vacuum advance was supposed to drop out as the throttle increased. At idle with the vacuum advance hooked up I'm @ 12 still and at moderate throttle similar to where it would be under load it's going to to 35 or so then up to 50 all in.

Not sure what to try here. Any advise is appreciated. Would trying manifold vacuum be a good idea? More TV pressure? I think if this were a manual I wouldn't be having this problem. I'm going to retard the initial timing back to 10 and see what that does for me.

I would try pulling some timing out, or running a bit richer jet...

You should get an adjustable vacuum advance unit

"...I'm at sea level…."
yeah, right! any lower - blub, blub!

which dizzy (& rest of ign)?
I'm pretty sure U got the RBS, no?

Have U seen some (any) of the great UTube vids on TV setting?

Good Luck, Seth - U got the the bones (& meat) of a really great rig!
Almost there…

If the vacuum advance is the adjustable design, insert a 3/32" hex wrench into the vacuum nipple & turn the adjustment 1 1/2-2 turns counter clockwise & that will delay the advance at high vacuum conditions.
I've done so many distributors that if its one of mine let me know & i will check my log on your distributor. Bill

I'll look for the adjuster, I did get it from you Bill, last year I think, maybe further back

After the initial post, I retarded the timing back a couple of degrees to around 10 and tightened up the tv cable a tiny bit. Took it out for a long test drive where I could bring it up to speed and have some hills. It still shifted early and wanted to ping when it bogged down at low throttle on an incline. If I keep my foot in it it does ok. I plugged the advance line and carried on till I got back home. It does pretty good w/o the vacuum advance, seems to run fine. While I was out I found that along with the early shifts up to 3rd, it wanted to go into od at around 40-45.

After I got back home I readjusted the timing down to around 6-7 degrees advanced, tightened up the tv cable another 1/16th or more and hooked the advance back up. I drove it a short while and then loosened the tv up a tad cause it seemed to be maybe late on shifting. It's doing pretty good now, but I think I will take up that last bit I turned off on the tv cable tomorrow and see how it does on the same long haul. I'll look for that vacuum can adjustment screw to. If I have to run it at 6 degrees my total will only be 28 or less. It seems to run and start fine on less initial though so maybe it's fine. I pulled a plug after I got back. Judging by the chart it's ok but on the lean side of ok. Not sure what to do about jetting the carb, it maybe could use a touch more fuel. I can drill it, but I'd rather not unless I have a spare. Don't mind drilling and soldering shut and drilling and so on, but not with the only jet I've got. Otherwise the carb is running like champ. Starting up in the mid 30's, fast idle is working, choke is working, no hesitation in the throttle. The van will lite up the tires if tromped Smoked them on Sunday. It get's right up to 60 and there's still plenty there

OK Bill, the vacuum unit is adjustable, so just now I've turned it out 1 3/4" turns or so. We'll see what that does for me here after lunch.

I've been working on the other side of the island today so I got a pretty good drive in this morning. It did pretty good, but I did sense a slight pinging under the same scenario once or twice. Retarding the timing 6 degrees does seem to have taken a little pep out it as well. I'm starting to lean towards the notion that in these situations it's going lean. But I don't have any empirical evidence that this is the case for sure. But with the larger 1.75/1.46 valves and port work it may well just need more fuel. I have an old yf lying around, I wonder if they use the same type of jet as the rbs? I'm going to take up on the tv just a bit before I leave back out for the afternoon and see what that does as well. It seems to be shifting ok, but it could still be a bit better. I'm glad I put in the 3.7 gears in the back but I'm starting to think maybe 3.89 or 4.11's would be better with the aod?

That is awesome really smoking the tires on the Econoline van! Probably startled some bystanders. It's just not something you would expect to see.
What vehicle is your AOD from? Were they set up to shift differently depending on the application? Thought I read that somewhere.

They are very light vehicles, doesn't take alot. It's a lot of fun to drive. Around a corner and push it to the floor.The 250 definitely out performs the old 170 Ironically the aod is from an 86 iirc, Econoline. Not sure what that means for the gearing of it. I got to my destination after lunch and promptly returned the tv to where it was. Seems to shift about as good as gets where I have it set. It did better after adjusting the vacuum unit. I'm really starting to believe it's running a little lean sometimes, like low throttle, off idle/low cruise. I have a 1.08 2100 that's ready to go, I might just get a 2-1 adapter and try it out. Now that the vacuum advance is dialed back I might try and up the initial back to 10 and see what it does tomorrow.

Seth, take another 1 1/2 turns CC. If that does not work i will advise on limiting the total vacuum advance.

hopin U don't switch till this set up is dialed in (may take a wk or 2?).
Too many changes might create too many varables 2 diagnose easily?
Do it after?

Good luck on the RBS. The jets R not swapable. They're 'pressed in'.
(UR drilling etc may wrk, not sure how to 'shrink' em tho).

OK, will do Bill. I'll try and get a reading on what affect that has had with the light if I have time. Chad the jet does screw in afaik and I think it has a metering rod. Would be like hunting in the dark modifying them though.

"... hunting in the dark…"
ur on (my) "vanguard" on that 1 buddy!
Let me know what U find (if U 'go there')!

I'll be your guinea pig

So I turned it out cc another turn and half, advanced the timing to 8 deg and drove it for the morning. It did ok but still wanted to ping a bit if I pushed it when it's telling me to back off. Another problem has come up in the last week, heat soak flooding. Not every time it's shut off but probably 6-7 of 10 if it's been driven a good bit. At least by Thursday. At lunch on Friday I wanted to reproduce the problem. I reset the initial timing to 10 deg btdc, disconnected and plugged the vacuum advance and let it warm up to a good operating temp. Nothing. So then I took it out around the industrial area near my home for a good hot run. Smoked the tires on dry pavement as I came back towards the house after the last turn onto my street. Got home, shut her down, waited, then... nothing. So I restarted, shut off the heater and disconnected the fan lead and let the engine get up to 210 or more(it was colder than hell here on Friday), then I reconnected the fan lead and let it get back down to 180 or less, fan kicked out, and shut it down. Lid closed, Fan kicked back in(b/c I wired it and it's relay off of the battery) waited a few minutes for it to shut down again and got in there and sure enough it was spewing fuel into the manifold again. I got to looking and feeling everything, carb wasn't excessively hot, except for the choke side, bowl was warm, line was warm, then hotter and then pretty hot where I found the out going heater hose pushing against it. I zip tied that hose to the upper radiator hose to keep it off the line and for good measure put 5-7 cloths line pins on the line throughout. I left the advance disconnected and went back to work. Drove back and forth, ran it pretty hard. It still wanted to ping just slightly, just before shifting, if I pushed it in just the right situation. Nice thing about an early Econoline is that you can really hear everything the engine is doing, and you can work on the engine 'in doors' It hasn't flooded again yet. I'm going to check/adjust the float down slightly when I drill the orifice and insulate the fuel line.

I did have a chance to run it up and down with the timing light on it at lunch with and w/o the vacuum advance hooked up. The engine is not running hot. The fan switch kicks it on at 195 and out at 180, the stat is 180. The fan only comes on for a minute or so periodically if it's sitting idling for long periods, under way it never comes on.

I'm coming to a couple of conclusions or at least, strong suspicions. The granny 1-2 gearing of the stock aod along with it's tendency to shift early when under load into 2nd is not helping. It's fine until it isn't. And then I have the choice of being gramma or pushing it to shift up or go faster. If I ever have to have any work done to this transmission I'll definitely have the 4R70W wide ratio 1-2 gear set installed into it. The other problems that hopefully I can fix sooner are the possible lean condition of the carb, the heat soak issue and maybe timing problem. It was encouraging to have the initial timing set to 10, the vacuum advance plugged and be able to light the tire(yeah, no posi) up, or put the peddle down and have it respond, shift well and get right up to speed. But the pinging issue and the carb flooding are the big concerns if the engine is going to hold up for me. Nothing like coming out to the truck and smelling gas and thinking of the brand new cylinder walls getting washed. I don't think it's been that bad but still. The more I think about it, I'm not convinced this is a timing issue beyond what I've already tried. I'll pull the plugs tomorrow and look at them. I'll probably start with drilling the jet up a size or 2. If it wasn't so cold I'd drive it with the dog house lid off and try and get it to ping so I can be sure it is pinging and not some kind of valve train issue/noise. Pretty sure it's a ping though. It's supposed to warm up next week.

Decades ago with the new style fuel found the use of much if any vacuum without EGR doset work well at all with old style engines.
New fuel likes in general with no EGR initial advance around 20* initial give or take a bit. Mechanical advance should only add about 12* to the initial advance so a total of about 32* total at 3000 RPM is a good place to start. This should be played around with to get optimum results before unplugging and connecting vacuum advance tuning. In most cases adding it in is of little if any benefit. In most of my efforts it only adds about 1 MPG highway no real improvement in city driving.

As far as vacuum advance a maximum of about 5* or less added to the 32* is about all that can be tolerated.

As for AOD trans I have 3 vehicles running currently running them and 3 or 4 in the past. I have always adjusted the TV cable just short of fully tight by a 1/16 to 1/32 of an inch. I also never engage OD unless traveling at a steady speed of 55 or more. City driving speeds with OD engaged causes the it to drop in and out of OD BETWEEN 40 AND 45 mph WHICH wears out the week OD cluth pack and soon causes it to slip and fail in OD.

About the only really successful way to change the shift points is to install the Mustang governor and relief valve.

Thanks for your insight and advise, turbo. What do you think is the ideal rear gear for an aod w/~26" wheels? Can you tell me more about the mustang governor and relief valve? I think I'm probably about at the right tv pressure now. It's near full travel and around 1:1 with the throttle. I haven't gotten it back out where I can get up to a 50+ cruise, but it hasn't gone into OD now when going 40-45. If anything I have to just feather it into 3rd sometimes when I need to cruise @ 35-40. Your view of the advance issue affirms some of my suspicion that the vacuum advance should be around 5-7 degrees and the mechanical should allow 12-14 degree's of inital. It's a truck and I need grunt w/o pinging. My compression is up, but it doesn't seem like it should be out of line with what's practical or doable @ 9.5:1 static and 8:1 dynamic.

Initially the vacuum advance was 16 degrees or more. I haven't had a chance to measure what it is exactly now. But it looked to be at least 10 degrees when I looked at it Friday. With the auto trans another bonus of having more initial timing is that it allows me to turn the idle down further which helps get a smoother idle at stop, in gear while opening the throttle plate less and staving off any possible run on at shut down.

I've heard that opening the jet up 2 or more sizes accounts for the unleaded ethanol gas? I think that's going to be my starting point on the carb. At Mikes carb parts there's a video of him rebuilding an RBS and the client needs it jetted down for elevation b/c it's off of a snow cat with a two thirty something. He solders and drills it b/c the jets aren't available. Being an HVAC guy for almost 20 years I've done that with gas orifices, it was good to see he did that for the RBS b/c that's my back up plan. I don't want to overshoot so I'll go slow and hopefully find the right size for my engine before any soldering is required. I'm not sure how far away from the rod size you can get before the fuel curve goes wanky through the band.

I had to do some plumbing yesterday and it was bitter cold, took it out once just to run it. Today I woke up to snow and needed to brew some beer

What are you using for a shifter set up? Typical AOD out of say a Crown Vic or Grand Marquis has 3 positions column shifter ... low ... drive.. and OD.
My guess would be if your using the factory column shifter that came with your van and put your shifter in the D position it will be in OD position and may be the reason you have to feather it into what may be OD not really the D position. Your low position should be allowing the trans to shift from first to second gear, Your second gear position should allow it to shift from 1 to 2nd to drive (3rd).

The only way to hold a AOD in second gear is to do the 1 2 1 shuffle. In other words say like drag racing an AOD drop it into low gear shift into 2nd (drive position) then pull it back into low (first gear position) to hold it in second gear. Then shift it into 2nd position (really drive position) were it can STAY IN 3RD until you let off the gas then it will shift like a 3 speed automatic until shifted into your Drive position which would let it shift from 1 to 2 to 3 to OD.

I modified my three on the tree column to work on the auto. Still working on a gating mechanism. I haven't been using the lower to gears, I assumed the were 1st and 1st and 2nd. I'll try using the 2nd shift position and see what happens. Thanks for the info.

If your using a manual 3 speed SHIFTER on the column would be best to look for a factory automatic steering column that would work in your van or some way to set up a B&M SUPER SHIFTER SOME HOW.

What dizzy are you using?

How I start tuning one in is to begin with disconnecting the vacuum advance its the last thing to mess with keep it plugged until mechanical advance is all dialed in.

Begin with setting initial. This is done by setting it then try to start the engine. Shut it down advance it a bit more and repeat until it becomes hard to turn over then back off the initial timing about 5*. At this point it within + or - couple degrees of being optimum.

Mechanical advance is next. Ford dizzys have a circular or D shaped hole in the beaker plate you will have to look through this hole to see the mechanical advance limit settings. You will see a slot one with a post in it one without they are 180* apart. there will be numbers stamped on the plate like 18R the other might be 13R. If memory serves me R is the 6 banger L is the V8. Note which one has the post in it as thats the one that is limiting the advance. Easiest to remove the dizzy to see as the dizzy has to be rotated. You can bump the starter but it can take a few tries to align the slots to view through the hole in the breaker plate.

Post which the post is in and the one not being used.