Does anyone have any solid models/CAD of the small six?

Asa

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I'm trying to do some design work for a 2x2bbl conversion. I'm trying to figure out the linkages and I know that a model I can design from would help. Last time I asked around was several years ago, was wondering if anyone had any advances in that.

Thanks
 
That's frustrating. I'm not looking forward to doing it myself. Going to have to price out getting the spare head I have scanned, but unless it's really cheap I will have to put in the work myself.

Also frustrating, I can't find any models of the Weber DGV carbs. :sigh:


How you doin, X?
 
Asa":3adn7sdt said:
That's frustrating. I'm not looking forward to doing it myself. Going to have to price out getting the spare head I have scanned, but unless it's really cheap I will have to put in the work myself.

Also frustrating, I can't find any models of the Weber DGV carbs. :sigh:


How you doin, X?

Fine,fine,fine....

For a rapid reconnaissance survey


A Plastic 12" vernier caliper with depth gage can be used as a Depth Max "Demac gage" and reference datum via two platic sheets will get you close.

A sandwhich with one slick under the head and another a long the rocker shaft bolts. PE food industry sheet is what I

Then grap your Dewalt with a long 5/32 drill, and drill holes. The hole co ords and deths form X/Y/Z co-ords, and for each point of inflection, drill a new hole,

Normally, the caliper depth gage will slot through the referenace datum, which can be the top for measurement, then recalculated from the bottom for standard CAD CAM numerical protocol.

As long as you can adjust the modular distances back to the 4.08" bore centre line, you are golden. In one of the many 1969 to 1982 on line articles, Ak Millar said that the casting wall thickness averages out as 189 thou based on the production line quality assurance. So you actual accuracy will vary.

A guy in my town does 3D imaging for medical equipment; an exceptional guy who has been briefed on the log head six by me back when I was looking at a 138 teeth Cologne V6 to Ford small six block adaptor. I don't like taking paid work from the Americas, because people like CNCDude can do a perfectly robust nth degree solid works survey for a small fee.

Because the working accuracy isn't great, and casting variations are quite large but hanged on a very accurate 4.08" modular distance, I prefer to do cigarete packet designs. For things like bellhousings, Fords production tollerances are pretty low order.

Good fortune.

Paul Simon once said, I like to go broad, and then go fine. Don't go fine first.

A man walks down the street (broad)
He says why am I soft in the middle now (then fine)
Why am I soft in the middle
The rest of my life is so hard
I need a photo-opportunity
I want a shot at redemption

NB//

When doing ShwaSixCobra's 81 Mustang Hatch 3.3 triple carb turbo schematic, I used on line templates, and then lashed them together with known accurate modular spacings. Don't go fine first, go broad first.


Doing it to the nth degree, production line Quality assurance needs a working range of castings to verfiy needed accuracy. For the old Offy and Edelbrock tripowers, and Hillborn injection, you can bet the accruacy was pretty low, and the only thing that re-established production line accuracy would have been pilot honing the core template postions of the three holes for the groups of three 1-bbl or 2-bbl intake centers. The rest always gets finshed fettled. Yeah, theres shrinkage and all the black art prodction line casting techniques Detriot is so dang good at, but it is just a working, living prototype untill you have to make 500 or more. Australian Vincent and Repco techncian Phil Irving used to just laugh at the best tool guys Detriot had on offer, how they could tool up for 10000 heads, but he said, "really, you'd be better off handbuilding twenty". And this was a guy who put twin and quad cam heads on 215 Buick Oldsmobile Pontiac Aluminum blocks, and just killed the opposition using nothing but a set of Daimler Majestic conrods and a few dozen 10 bob casting patterns. He made 195 mph motorbikes, and Merlin cabin blower equiped V twin side cars and open wheelers that trunced the opposition. He only became a detail nut when finish fettling...and man, was he a detail nut then.

https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/features/c ... remembered
“In my view, blind worship at the shrine of the super complicated is a thing to be eschewed with vigour – the simpler a thing can be made, provided it gets results, the better.”

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... Bell-Build

xctasy":3adn7sdt said:
The last E0 heads are big, strong, and Pinto or Ford 2000/2300/2800 carbs plentiful.


Just remember, the T03 60 is also the Lotus Esprit Turbo and MG Mini Metro Turbo unit, spanning from 92 hp to 245 hp from 1980 to the late 80's.

The American Lotus community has unlocked Weber and Dellorto side draft carbs with turbos, the settings aren't much different to the normally aspirated European models, and they run 4.5 psi max fuel pressure on , I think, a 9 psi boost for 230 to 245 hp before fuel injection got fitted. Same with the Ferrari 208 GTS Turbo.


Links http://www.gglotus.org/ggtech/tesprit-dellortos/body-dellortos.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=169799

There are 5-1/8" Holley, 5200 Holley Weber and templates of conventional aftermarket 32/36 carb air cleaner pad shapes to cut from alloy or pannel steel.

There is enough space for three side by side, even with three water operated automatic chokes. They are about 7.48" or 190 mm side to side (Edited after rechecking...late night)


IMG_8576.jpg


IMG_8575.jpg

IMG_8574.jpg

IMG_8573.jpg

IMG_8572.jpg

IMG_8571.jpg

IMG_8570.jpg

IMG_8569.jpg



Basically, find the hard dimensions, and map them out in Paint.


I used the 5th one down, Weber's 32/36 and 38 Style B = 5 1/8 #99010.457

from http://www.carburetion.com/Weber/adaptors2.htm


It comes into paint at an aprox 1:44.4 scale factor, with 229 pixels = to 5.125"


6vi6.jpg


Triple_32_36_dgav_air_cleaner_adaptor.png


I do carb rebuilds, so I had all the gaskets to establish the hard dimensions, but a screen dump into "Paint" does the rest.
 
Some decent info, I'll try it out when I start on this. I have one more thing to try out before I actually start, though. For now I think I'll just work on getting a rough baseline so I can start on the linkage problem of the Webers. I figure I'll make a primary pivot that mounts to the original carb placement, then have linkages to the direct mount Webers on the log.

I can't remember, did we ever discuss this? And if so, did we discuss orientation of the carbs? Meaning, main venturi on the inside or outside of the intake, or align them so that the venturis go primary-progressive-primary-progressive and have the fuel bowls both on the inside?


Edit: man, I forgot the ability you had to edit a post. Let me re-read that and see what you just added
 
Blast, I forgot that the Holley 5200 is basically a Weber. Time to google for a solid model of those as well.

And Toyota used a version of it as well, right? Was it called anything else?
 
Cool

See http://ejehforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11561

Read and laugh a little....

My Fazer Engines use triple Holley 2300EG's, a Ford H code 370 big block truck carbs.

I did all the twin and triple Weber DGV/DGAS and Holley Weber 5200/5210/6200/6500 or G180 schematics on a peice of cardboard down strairs.

Most of it is picking and mixing pictures, going broad, and then zoning in on the One Complete Solution that suits YOU.

You only need to complete the whole first step the way YOU WANT TO, then the other steps will be easy.

You can do whatever you like, you can use one 32/36 and one 5200, and turnbuckle the linkage, or turn a single 2-bbl carb into a simulanoues 2-bbl with a 52 dollar kit. Its a log head, so you can do whatever you like and improve fuel delivery by reducing the log jam from one point of distribution. As long as you do that, you can run the carbs whatever way you like.


You can make any Weber DGV bhave like a 5200 Holley Weber if you copy and transfer over the same venturi sizes, well tubes and jets and air correctors. What isn't interchangable you can drillout and JB weld in, or find another carb that you can change. The Pierces simultanoues conversion FOR THE 32/36 could be made to suit the HW 5200 by fine blanking the linkage as a mirror image. Anything can go with anything if you do minimum to change it.



The Holley Weber is a handed DGAV with DFV air horn.


I like Webers, but they aren't Holley 2300's, and they need some simple rules followed on fuel pressure, float level and PVC set up, and they have some linkage rules that Pat Braden and Dave Emanual expressed in there Weber bookes. But you can do whatever first up, like a Colin Champman Lotus, B Build it first, then fix it where it breakes, like finite element anaylsis. Go broad, be brave, then improve the engineering one step at a time. Avoid blind alleys by having the approximate pictures and tools nearby. I've got 2500 images in my Photobucket, and videos and stills from my last Fox 3.3, and that stops me having to waste time doing DXF files and making a model.
 
Asa":3rqys6hp said:
Blast, I forgot that the Holley 5200 is basically a Weber. Time to google for a solid model of those as well.

And Toyota used a version of it as well, right? Was it called anything else?


Toyota used an Aisan carb base that matched the DGV, so its able to have one as a swap, but there was never a factory Toyota with a weber DGV.

Same with Niki carbs on Colts/Mitsubishis
Same with Mazda B series trucks and Ford Couriers, all were Toyo Kogyo, but you could swap in the Courier 2300 Lima Holley Weber carb onto the Mazda 1800 cc engine the Courier used. Might have needed an adaptor, can't remember.


Same with NAPS-Z 2 liter Datsun engines, you can pop a DGV on 'em anytime. The Honda Kehin too

BMW 2002's and carbed 2500/3.0/528's take these HW 5200 and 32/36 or 38 Webers as replacements, as the French made Solex (later, german owned Pierberg) carbs weren't as plentiful or as well supported (the Solex 1, 2 and 4 bbl carbs are good, just not as talked about and modifed as Webers). The Chinese copies of Weber carbs and Solex carbs under EPMI have made it hard to fathom just what the heck is what.


The HW and 32/36 DGV and its 38 DGES/DGAS brother are the most swapable and universal carb swaps ever.

The 5740 Holley and Carter Holley (32 DMTL) are better carbs, but not bigger, and your choices are just huge right before you. Where the primary and secondary barrle is does make a difference, but again, its a log head, and anything is an improvement.


Once scoped out, then you can apply some good old Germanic/Teutonic efficency to the application.
 
I've had this idea for a while now, and accordingly I picked up a pair of Webers around a year ago. Just recently found the head though so I've only started to review and order my thoughts on it.

Mainly looking for other sales options for the Webers so I can spend 10 minutes Googling and possibly save myself time in design.
 
You'll love them, no one goes broke with entry level Webers or HW's, America has made 'em work on three transport mechanisms, Pintos, Mustangs and Jeeps. A mixture of totally good NOS junk for $50 each found in a FoMoCo, Mopar, Volkswagen, AMC or Chevrolet box, or 300 buck each items brand new from Redline, Pierce or whatever, and everthing in between. Rated like a Holley 350 cfm 7448 or500 cfm 4412, they start off at 320 cfm, and end up at 424 cfm, so they flow nicely. They have a nice trim base, and a zinc oxide body which sometimes cracks, but its always good quality. And you can repar them.

Best things are how the emulsion tubes work if you've got air fuel matters, you can fix em right up by Airbert and Swatson454's methods of soldering up or adding holes. Its not black magic, just good old Italian aero engine smarts retold by Limey's like David Vizard. You should see how passionate the old British car set guys are about them...you'd expect them to hate anything from Italy, but they don't.

I like the later, rather rare bleed back Fiat 34 ADA, 82-92 Oz Falcon 34 ADM's and the batcrap funnily named 36 and 38ADL's of long since junked Fiat era Lancias. There are so many different DCNF and other oddballs as well. But its the 32/36 that is the mainstay of Weber success, you just cant kill em.

Only reason I've moved to Holley 2300 series carbs is that, actually, Webers are a little to boaring and are easy to master, while Holley 2-bbls, treated like a Weber with everything made adjustable, well, they can make a fat, clean power curve. I spent about five years since 2011 trying to figure out how to fit them in the confines of a log head, Webers and Holley Webers are easy because they are small, Holley 350 and 500 cfm 2-bbls are just aweful to package, and multiple carbs are almost impossible to mount on a short tract passenger side intake in line Ford. Its like Ford just decided to make it hard on purpose for 2300 series Holleys. Webers, HW's, not an issue.



I skipped the two Webers as a 4-bbl because the triple 2-bbl is just as cheap, and offers some extra power without too much extra effort. Falcon Sedan Delivery (Faron) warned/ explained to me how the throttle blade positioning on Holley 2-bbls 2300s worked, and that air fuel mixture has to be uniform under part and full throttle. Carb placement governs that.

Webers and Holley Webers are MUCH better, they tip in towards a common focal point, and give great air fuel roosters tails, fine atomised fuel vapour and always good results. Holley 2-bbls, if placed the wrong way, can yeild poor distribtion. So I went right into perfecting a triple 2-bbl carb set-up, and I've got that sorted. I'll never go back to anything else.

Enjoy yourself now....putting two 227 cfm at 1.5" Hg of carb on a 200 head is pretty much the 454 cfm 4-bbl solution to all the log heads problems.
 
xctasy":32giappr said:
As long as you can adjust the modular distances back to the 4.08" bore centre line, you are golden. In one of the many 1969 to 1982 on line articles, Ak Millar said that the casting wall thickness averages out as 189 thou based on the production line quality assurance. So you actual accuracy will vary.

X
In this, are you saying that I can expect a wall thickness of 0.189" on the log?

Mainly trying to figure out how much thread engagement I can expect. I think I'll try to take the head into the shop Monday or so and start machining flats on it.
First I might want to de-rust it all, though. You guys have Evap O Rust down there? F'ing brilliant product. Never found anything like it, it doesn't even damage paint as it de-rusts.

http://vintagetriumphparts.com/Rust_Des ... Ah5G8P8HAQ


Also what, if any, CAD software do you have? I might want to send you some files to show what I am thinking.
 
Asa,.. I just measured a D3 it was.210 by 3-4 and .235 at 1 and 6.
I know it would be more work but why not contour the adapter to the manifold, if it would get a better footprint.
 
drag-200stang":2ztfms92 said:
Asa,.. I just measured a D3 it was.210 by 3-4 and .235 at 1 and 6.
I know it would be more work but why not contour the adapter to the manifold, if it would get a better footprint.
Excellent news. 0.200+ is pretty good, easily within the range of some of the better helicoils.

As for the footprint, unless we're talking about different things, I hope be able to nail a flat surface by going just past the bottom of the casting numbers. At least drawing on the centerline, it looks like that.

rtg8tIj.jpg



Rough design of it, although I don't trust it yet. I need to find some way to verify it.
vBmMHzp.jpg



X, going back to the orientation of the carbs, unless I make a spacer that's over 1" thick or more, I don't think I'll be able to do anything but have the venturis go OoOo as I have in the model (unless I brain farted and put them in backwards, of course.) The fuel inlet wouldn't be hitting the valve cover, it would be hitting the valve train.
 
It depends what 32/36 DGAV you use. There are bleed back, non bleed back, and 5 versions of Bresel or Italian built Weber.

Mine are the Brtish market Cortina, bleed back from 1972, Bresell 32/36 DGAV3 with water heated choke.


Your mock up is perfect


32_36_carb%20Jetting.jpg


Wall thickness should be about 190 inside....in excess of 200 on the outside of the head, it'll be thickerin parts based on core vaiance. Nothing to above 60 thou core shift. . Inside, the sand casting was pretty acurate. It was all about metal reduction from 1969 onwards.


If you use the US HW 5200 style standard external Ford Motorcraft fuel filter, no room.

The brass integrated filter hex nut gets very close to contact, so does the press in suply and return line juctions.

23903.jpg


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As stated in the triple Weber turbo schematic with the owner of the T4 4 speed Mustang 3.3, you can lock the barrels to open at the same time, open the venruris up to a uniform 27 mm each, and then jet to suit, or change it around to suit your goals. "Right and wrong are just words,,,, what matters is what you do...."


The pre 1968 XK-XR rocker cover(USA 60-66)without the baffel works, the 1972 XA and 1981 EO Mustang (USA 72 TO 83) one doesn't unless you use a half inch phonlic adaptor.

Even the US 1974 Emission conrol era compliant 1983 ADR27C Australian/ Swedish/Swiss Taunus and TF Cortina carb was basically 1972 bleedback Weber 32/36 with no changes.

32_36DGAV_Adjustments.jpg


32_36DGAV_Emmissions.jpg


99007.551-1.jpg

JEEP CJ7 Wrangler Cherokee 4.2 Redline Linkage kit for WEBER DGV, DGEV, or DGAV

k12%2038%20weber%202bbl%20rod%20operated%20accelerator.jpg

Bill's k12 38 weber 2bbl rod operated accelerator linkage for his 38 DGAS is here

1579-002.JPG



WEBER-DGVDGAV-TWIN-CARBURETTORCARB-THROTTLE-SYNCHRONISING-LINKAGE-KIT-222155632569-2.jpg


WEBER-DGVDGAV-TWIN-CARBURETTORCARB-THROTTLE-SYNCHRONISING-LINKAGE-KIT-222155632569-600x600.jpg


WEBER DGV/DGAV TWIN CARBURETTOR/CARB THROTTLE SYNCHRONISING LINKAGE KIT
 
Update:

Machined some flat surfaces, didn't completely cut out the size of the Weber's footprint as I'm not 100% sure where the carb will be mounted (I want to ensure they're both centered, and in reference to a proper centerline.) I figure I'll use Engineer's Blue and scribe the exact pattern once I mount the flanges.

The flanges are what I want to talk about, though. Based on the height measurements, I should have a decent amount of room to move up so I can get some more clearance for the linkages. Based on that height, I'll be at more than 1.5" high for the flanges. Not a big concern for me, but I'm wondering if (while I do that) I might be able to aid the flow transition, and maybe cut down on a little bit of turbulence? I know that the log itself doesn't flow the best anyways, so is aiding initial turbulence any sort of worthy effort?


The entire album
http://imgur.com/a/JgHx3



If I do that, I'm thinking of something like:
IMLma65.png


n8pXIE5.png



Flange mockup
W5T0ofc.jpg


6nGbe1E.jpg


Height concerns
D0TIBDS.jpg


nXYHQ66.jpg
 
Lookes like you got it all going on fine.

The log is an abyss with no easy 2 bbl into 3 cylinder flow pattern. You can't file the air fuel evenly into 3 cylinders from a 1 bbl to 2bbl carb source.

So just start with opening everything up as much as you can to stop the fuel air mix getting lost. Webers are shallow, so as long as you preserve the 4-1/2" rocker to hood line curve with you two 32/36's, your good to go.


Twin carbs are much nicer to pacakge than any other carb.

Air fuel mix? It'll bounce around, and with a bigger cam, you'll get the same kindof idle to transittion problems and flat spots that Ak Miller talked about with the Quad 37mm Keihin constant velocity carburettors from Honda 450 motorcycles he attached to the four 1.5" external diameter stubs brazed to the old 200 cylinder head in "Horsing Around with the Mustang Six".

http://cometcentral.com/tech/hm6/index.html

http://www.cometcentral.com/tech/h2/index.html

As a matter of fact, the idling adjustment on these Keihin carbs proved to be something to behold. This setup came with a smoother idle than 99 percent of all the stock cars I have ever played with. We did, however, encounter flat spots in the extreme low end of the rpm range, but, after all, when playing around with 5.8 square inches of carburetion on such a small engine, one must learn to expect that all cannot be "peaches and cream." To offset the flat--spot disadvantage, the price of these units is only $25.00 each.


Tuning and having the carbs staged takes car of flat spots. Its caused by reversion in a six cylinder manifold, and its more a twin two barrel, non staged thing. Fiat 2300's suffered from it to, so Lampredi just played around with emulsion tubes to richen and lean off the problem.

viewtopic.php?t=27696
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=74255&p=570915#p570915

This is a rework of FTF's noble linkage join up for multiple carb in line Sixes.


I had to regig it from his orginal customary small sized image, turn it, and then, presto, you see that its a 2-bbl link rod, wsa111 style, but in duplicate.

gk_tftf_2150_motorcraft_300_six.jpg



I started out on the 4-bbl thing, then decided to continue on with the 6-bbl.
 
I guess I also don't need to worry about having different intake runner lengths fore and aft either in order to get the carbs on plane. (Do I need to get the carbs level on the same plane? I would assume so, but other than for linkage reasons, I can't think of any other reason to keep them on the same plane, just have both of them level.)

I also need to refresh myself on rebuilding the small six head. Are 302 springs still the hot ticket? I do know a guy locally that I work with second hand that cuts his own Moldstar valve guides and seat inserts, but he normally does ATV stuff so I don't know if the Moldstar stuff would work for my application.
 
Asa":1ebkevpw said:
I guess I also don't need to worry about having different intake runner lengths fore and aft either in order to get the carbs on plane. (Do I need to get the carbs level on the same plane? I would assume so, but other than for linkage reasons, I can't think of any other reason to keep them on the same plane, just have both of them level.)

I also need to refresh myself on rebuilding the small six head. Are 302 springs still the hot ticket? I do know a guy locally that I work with second hand that cuts his own Moldstar valve guides and seat inserts, but he normally does ATV stuff so I don't know if the Moldstar stuff would work for my application.



Yes, with 4.0 OHV Cologne V6 retainers.

Asa":1ebkevpw said:
xctasy":1ebkevpw said:
As long as you can adjust the modular distances back to the 4.08" bore centre line, you are golden. In one of the many 1969 to 1982 on line articles, Ak Millar said that the casting wall thickness averages out as 189 thou based on the production line quality assurance. So you actual accuracy will vary.

X
In this, are you saying that I can expect a wall thickness of 0.189" on the log?

Mainly trying to figure out how much thread engagement I can expect. I think I'll try to take the head into the shop Monday or so and start machining flats on it.
First I might want to de-rust it all, though. You guys have Evap O Rust down there? F'ing brilliant product. Never found anything like it, it doesn't even damage paint as it de-rusts.

http://vintagetriumphparts.com/Rust_Des ... Ah5G8P8HAQ


Also what, if any, CAD software do you have? I might want to send you some files to show what I am thinking.

Oh, and the head has 187 thou casting thickness, nominal. Everything C9 onwards. If you got 210 and 235, then its just in the log part of the head, the rest will be wound down below that.



The complete Ford book page 45, Ak Miller, 187 thou head casting.


The_complete_ford_book_page%2045_187_thou_head_casting.jpg


https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... 452/page-2
 
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