Engine upgrade for 1960 falcon.

oldgriz

Active member
Hi I have searched the forum with no luck in what it will take to install a late model 250 i6 into a 1960 falcon any help
would be appreciated before we start this project . Already have engine and three speed trans. Also thinking about a t5.
 
oldgriz":22qqswyy said:
Hi I have searched the forum with no luck in what it will take to install a late model 250 i6 into a 1960 falcon any help
would be appreciated before we start this project . Already have engine and three speed trans. Also thinking about a t5.


Your regular pre middle 1962 model year Falcon, Fonteanc and Meteor won't take the bellhousing of a 250 in line six engine. The firewall section is too small. People keen on doing it have to strip it down, and pound the floor pan to make space.


Once that's done, its just a swap over of the idler and pitman track rod, with a chamfered plung cut via the right tool, and a regular 157 teeth flexplate C4 auto or 157 teeth 3.03 manual 3 speed/4 speed or T5 will go in with some carfull work on an axle upgrade, taking care to get the pinion axngle right to clear the floor.

If you don't want to pound the a$$ out of your floor pan, you find a Mustang II 302 SR4 bellhousing and trans, or a Mustang II C4. These had either a smaller 148 teeth flywheel or a 141 teeth flexplate, small enough to clear the firewall and tunnel restrictions.

You'll have to remove the 28Oz unbalance off either of the last Mustang II parts.


A last resort is using the Luiz Camilo adaptor. See the Luiz Camilo adaptor link below. Its a bit of an act getting to it, click on "Giulia Brasileira - Luis' 1974 Alfa Romeo GTV V8" on the side bar

http://www.rickwrench.com/index79.htm


Rick Wrench from Ford Six Performance has a close friend from Brazil who makes the adaptor to fit 302/5.0 Pushrod Winsors into Alfa Romeo GTVs, Spiders and Fiats.


LUIS_C_1974_GTV_ALFA_ROMEO_302_V8.jpg



See 7th and 8th picture down in this link

any of the small, lightweight aluminum gearboxes, the Mitsubishi 5 speed, Toyo Kogyo (Mazda m5od) or 5r55 trans behind a 138 tooth Ranger, Explorer or Mustang with a Cologne V6 can be used to mate to a 250 in line six just as this 302 conversion.

I sent this to RickWrench about his Brazillian mate who used and perfected the kit back in the early Naughties

xctasy":22qqswyy said:
Way back, I remember your brilliant Brazillian friends Alfa Romeo GTV 5000 with 302 Small block Ford with a Cologne V6 gearbox adaptor plate, 138 tooth flywheel and its 5 speed gearbox mated up to down size the 141/148/157/164 tooth bellhousing enough to fit in the 1750 derived engine bay.

Done a heap of research, mixed and matched some photo's




and I'm gonna use the idea myself. I can ad lib it from here, but do you still have any contact with him, and if so, what thickness was used, and how does the little 138 flywheel mate to the 3" pitch 6 bolt 3.625" crank flange. Is he making a kit. If not, its a really good idea and would allow all the stronger, compact 5 speed gearboxes to fit behind any 302 small block.

Best wishes,

Dean from New Zealand
 
also:
a book on that (250 ina '60 falcon):
"Performance Handbook"
written by 2 of our members, & offered by
Matt (nother member) at vintage inlines dot com ($20/25?).
(Done a lill differently there, just another option. Book also
has lotta other info on these tqie lill beasts).
Additionally:
more (but free) info at the "Classic Inlines archive" on any of the forum
Index pages for the many forums on this site. More component oriented
but some info on motor swaps, etc.
 
Thanks for the info, so it's not going to be a drop in. But that's ok we are well equipped in the shop.
Now I'm thinking at looking at using the bell housing, clutch and pressure plate etc from the old engine
And fab up adapter plates to make it fit, I'm a pretty good machinist and have the tools.
That being said I've never done this before.
 
That is a pretty awesome project you are working on, the 250 is my favorite six. The torque makes a nice driving experience even in stock condition. You may have to get a bigger rear diff.
 
oldgriz":3mqcstwl said:
Thanks for the info, so it's not going to be a drop in. But that's ok we are well equipped in the shop.
Now I'm thinking at looking at using the bell housing, clutch and pressure plate etc from the old engine
And fab up adapter plates to make it fit, I'm a pretty good machinist and have the tools.
That being said I've never done this before.


No way a high mount bellhousing will work with a SBF flange, which the US 250 has. The starter occupies the flange the 250 has. Even if you drilled it out, it is an insanly big piece of cast iron which if fettled away, would hurt the integrety of the block.


The great news is that you can work backwards from a Canfield SBF to Lima/EAO adaptor. That transfers the 250/SBF Bellhousing and 157 teeth flywheel to a Lima 2.3 OHC 132 teeth flywheel. You'd have to do a reverse adaptor. As above with the Brazilian SBF 5.0 to Cologne V6, your I6 has more room to go to the Ford 2.0/2.3 starter postion. The 5.0 conversion, if you use the passenger side 2.3 starter, you can go down to 132 teeth even with a 5.0.


Stinger have stopped making there version, but Canfield Industries still do still do.

http://www.cididit.com/adaptor_plate.htm


adaptor_plate_motor.jpg


Both are basically the same .

AdapterPlate.jpg



2.3 to SBF Bellhousing Adapter Plate
This billet aluminum plate converts any Ford 2.3L OHC engine to the small-block Ford bellhousing bolt pattern. This allows 2.3 owners to run the larger 5.0 Mustang clutch components, T-45, T-56, and other manual transmissions, as well as any of the automatic transmissions available for small block Fords. Adapter use in manual transmission applications will require the use of a zero balance small-block Ford flywheel with a 2.3 crank bolt pattern (also available). Includes all hardware shown, as well as an instruction sheet.
(No Longer Available)



The 2.3 is on a 2.75" pitch center for the six bolt crank flange.

From a very good engine builder, merk from Four Eyed Pride.

20140316_120113_zpsb6ac096c.jpg
.
20140316_214658_zpsf78781c5.jpg


You can then use the SR4/T5 or even Rocket ET 78 4-speed/ RAN Tremec 140 5speed bellhousing. Any 2.3 or even Pinto 2.0 or possibly T9 5speed Merkur bellhousing will work.

The T9's and ET78's are being given new parts supply from the British suppliers Burton and Quaife, and can be upgraded to close ratio and alloy case versions with torque capacity up to 250 lb-fts or more, with power to 300 hp easily.

The SR4 was always just Mustang II 137 HP/ 220 LB-FT levels, , BUT IT WILL TAKE BASIC 4.2/5.0 grade power, and a T5 generally goes where a SR4 goes, with a few cross memeber matters.

You would be going to this arrangment.

2300TURBOCARBMUSTANGstreetlethal011.jpg

2300TURBOCARBMUSTANGstreetlethal010.jpg

2300TURBOCARBMUSTANGstreetlethal010.jpg

2300TURBOCARBMUSTANGstreetlethal009.jpg
 
It'll be easy to tunnel the body than reuse the old bell ect. The beauty of it is you can use a 4R70W or any sbf manual trans you want on the 250.
 
I think any auto too, no?
The falcon 250/4.1 is the same bell as any "sbf" (a misnomer applied frm che^^ys as we have 'families').
Yeah - 250, 289, 300, 351 & so on wid dis bell…

(I'm doing the above subject line swaps myself in the vehicle in the sig).
 
Thank you for more information guys. the more info I digest on this , the more it is looking like it will be easier and more
cost effective to modify the transmission tunnel. This will also help with drive line angle as my son also would like to lower
The car a little too. We like to do the research and figure it all out on paper first.
Thanks again for the information much appreciated.
 
chad":98pbi1ft said:
I think any auto too, no?
The falcon 250/4.1 is the same bell as any "sbf" (a misnomer applied frm che^^ys as we have 'families').
Yeah - 250, 289, 300, 351 & so on wid dis bell…


Ugh hugh! (y) Nearly any auto. Anything C4 will work, as long as you don't have to change the spline count to suit someother part. Some C4's, you can't rip the bellhousing off 'em. All of the later FMX based AOD's, AODE's and 4R70W's are one piece...although you can saw them up and fit other bellhousings, they are often bigger. There are no 2.3-2.0 Lima/2.0 EAO kits to fit to those. Some Cruis-o-Matics are FMX seperate bell, and really good parts scavangers will find some specisl versions for sixes. But they are mostly big a$$ 157 or 164 teeth bells of way over 14 "flexplate sizes. Just like the Truck C4's and 1982-1985 C5 gearboxes. Ford did some really cool thinking. Some Bronco II's had a so called C5 without a lock-up clutch.


For every Ford rule, and exception, which normally makes it easier, not harder, if you know where to look.


As Henry Ford said...."Thinking...the hardest work there is".

You've also gotta know to understand, and "you don't know whatcha don't know"

Regards C4's.
The bellhousing at the front is the difference between any small six C4 and the 250 C4. If you don't reduce from the 157 teeth flywheel or the 157 or 164 teeth flexplate, you will still have problems with the trans tunnel.


Ford sort of did most of the ground work with the V8 Mustang II gearboxes, so you have lots of easy options.


But drop the heater, grab a fire extinguiser, and you can give some hammertime to it, and get the clearance results. 61 Ranchero had a gunmetal grey pickup with 250. Powerband has his little 250 beastie.


Or think outside the square and fit a smaller 4.0 or 2.3 trans. Anything from 1995 to 2000 are your best candiates. Then you've got simply massive options...any manual 5speed Ford used, and even a 5R55 5 speed from a junked Explorer or Ranger 2wd. All those oddball French autos need are smart lock deactivation, a TPS code and you little 60 Falcon could be flying with all the gears you could ever want. In a sub 2800 pound car, they like it a lot better than in a 3500 plus pound SUV.
 
Oh yea I also ordered the falcon 6 book.
Bmbm40 I have a 4 lug rear out of my 70 Maverick grabber that were going to use after we up grade it to disks and positrack.
Im stealing the 5 lug rear and spindles from the 72 comet GT were working on and upgrading the grabber drivetrain . there just isn't a lot of cool rim choices for 4 lug. My son wants to keep the falcon stock as much as possible . With upgrades for reliability and safety.
Seat belts and getting rid of the death spear steering column are on the list been doing a lot of research.
I'll post some pictures tomorrow.
 
Ecstasy I have 4 or 5 c-4 autos in the shed to play with . I just bought and dismantled a 70 Maverick I picked up on Craig's
List for a couple hundred bucks, I cried when I cut up the body (no title) rust free. but it had 200 i6 and three speed 3.3.
As far as the five speed explorer trans I hate em I've had nothing but problems with em . I haven't learned to rebuild them
either. 250 i6 are on Craig's list all the time down here for cheep 150 to 300 bucks. I'm going to go look at one tomorrow
Not that I need another but there not marketing anymore.
 
Ecstasy I have 4 or 5 c-4 autos in the shed to play with . I just bought and dismantled a 70 Maverick I picked up on Craig's
List for a couple hundred bucks, I cried when I cut up the body (no title) rust free. but it had 200 i6 and three speed 3.3.
As far as the five speed explorer trans I hate em I've had nothing but problems with em . I haven't learned to rebuild them
either. 250 i6 are on Craig's list all the time down here for cheep 150 to 300 bucks. I'm going to go look at one tomorrow
Not that I need another but there not making anymore.
 
Every one's different but I like the restomod (heavy on the resto & light on the mod).

A '78 E150 column & wheel fits my bronk for the tilt function. The key is still on the dash so
it's gone in the vehicle for low hanging branches when the top is off & windshield's on the hood.
Some day I'd like a one piece tonneau cover for the bed/passenger's compartment/doors w/3 zipper accesses.

The Handbook will show you much as will the CI Archive. Tell us more and we may have ideas you like (& some U don't, course)
8^0
Stick around (we can learn frm U as well) and shoot us some pic as U go!!!
We (I) luv pic !
Good luck with your research, like ur idea about "workin it all out on paper B4 beginning".
 
oldgriz":njn8gigm said:
Oh yea I also ordered the falcon 6 book.
Bmbm40 I have a 4 lug rear out of my 70 Maverick grabber that were going to use after we up grade it to disks and positrack.
Im stealing the 5 lug rear and spindles from the 72 comet GT were working on and upgrading the grabber drivetrain . there just isn't a lot of cool rim choices for 4 lug. My son wants to keep the falcon stock as much as possible . With upgrades for reliability and safety.
Seat belts and getting rid of the death spear steering column are on the list been doing a lot of research.
I'll post some pictures tomorrow.


Yeah, the death spear...



Three things


1. You can use the 3N71B 3 speed auto RX4/RX5 automatic gearbox,

Mazda-RX4-600x400.jpg


Datsun 810 transmission
also used on the 1977-1979 Jatco 250 Granada's
and Holden RoadPacer.

zzzfrontroad.JPG


Yes, heavy Ford and GM intermediates, with the gearbox from Mazda.....


The gearbox was from Mazda and Nissan, used on the Mazda designed, Ford assembled Ford Courier truck from 77-82. What many don't realise is that Mazda and Datsun/ Nissan built there own Ford C4 in Japan via Fords 25% ownership of Toyo Kogyo (Mazda), and imported it to the US for use in certain US models, and it was even more reliable than the C4. It was made by JATCO, a co-op company. Because it was a C4, it was reliable, but even more so as it had insanely well kitted out fully converted internals. Nissan Diesels (ld24/28's 810 Maximas, and other engines in Datsun pickups and the rotary and four cylinder Mazdas) were commonly fitted with it in overdrive 4N71B form.

Its 85% a fully rollerised 76-80 Ford Granada/ 74-82 Ford Courier JATCO , but with a huge OD unit added in between. Get one of these, and its one of the best gearboxes ever made. You found it on the 250 engined Granadas, they had a SBF bell housing, and mated to a 1982-1985 JATCO Overdrive, 0.68:1 if you got the right one, and a shorter Datsun/Nissan extension housing.

Behind a 5.0, a great gearbox.

The team the designed the AOD at Ford US had access to this transmission via there techncla link with Mazda.

As a result, the AOD is supperior potentially because of the Jatco 3N71B 3speed auto. Info I have is that the AOD is a reheated 1962-1966 XT-LOD (Extension Lock-Up Overdrive) design, shelved during the gluttony of the 60's and early 70's, then revisted exactly when Jatco started building the 3N71B and 4N71B.

The AOD difference being the integrated forth, not an add on. In terms of names, words, and Pearsons tech divisions, its layout , its techncially all different.

To this day, each is a supreme piece of stout drag racing equipment in RX-7's, Zeds, ...though it may just have a passing C4 resembalance, they are a straight interchange..anywhere a C4 goes, a 3N71B or 4N71B can . Even the overdive units were added to the 3N71B without anything but a valve body mod and a stator backout bearing.

One 5.0 with an od 3N71B

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/jatco-3n71-trans-219310.html

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/foru...5-mustang-unusual-engine-set-up-good-bad.html


Another 289 with a stock 3N71B without the early Nissan over drive added. Its a 100% factory 77-80 Granada auto gearbox.

124992d1300491315-1965-mustang-unusual-engine-set-up-good-bad-nissan-3n71b-transmission-cleaned-1.jpg



They don't look the same as an AOD outside, don't have a bolt pattern the same asside from the SBF bell housing, share no interchanagle parts, but the hard dimsions and narrow ratios are the same.There is even a wide ratio set, aka 4W70R...Who was aping who?

83250d1257976545-early-c4-vs-1965-c4-c4-transmission-11-11-09-002-resized.jpg


Ford really should have bought the rights to it, as the owned a huge share in Mazda, and for a time, all automatic RX-7's, JDM Mazda Cosmos and 929's, even the GM Holden Permier based Mazda RoadPacer, had this 3N71B based gearbox, a Ford gearbox with a few Mazda inspirerd tweeks. The US AOD is internally like it.

L4N71b_Diesel_03c.jpg


2. Keeping things Nissan Satsun and at the same junkyard.....14 by 5.5 and 14 x 6 j 4.5" spacing wheeels, Datsun/ Nissan Maxima and the aftermarket 24, 26 and 28 Ounces.

Search "rwd Datsun Nissan Maxima 810/ 240, 260 and 280z wheels" Fairlady, 510, 720 ETC too.


They rust, but the wheels roll on and on...and they have a tight offset for their strut susepension, and are great on 60's.

125a6099-918b-43bd-8023-e3ff549889d6-364x204-thumb-force.jpg



810_pic1.jpg



090eae9db96d61a14f8603e680c87ae1.jpg



001.jpg




Lastly

3. Your options are limitless from junkyard parts...if going manual trans, using the self adjusting quadrant and T5/5.0swaps are so popular, that type will be found.

The inside end of the cable hooks to the cable quadrant


Quadrant_Top.jpg



Non standard or post 1996-2004 cables have an adjustment fulcrum.


On a Fox Mustang or Fairmont without brake booster, the hole is a little clearer.


BOXTOP200.jpg




This is the danger zone for adjustable cables.


34pgdq9.jpg




On other cars, like old Falcons, they just need to use steel tube reinforcing

clutchcable009.jpg


or an alloy fulcrum like MustangSteves' DIY stuff for X bodies at http://www.mustangsteve.com/

FirewallBrackeCableFt-211x158.jpg


Cables can come in other lengths too, just be aware that the standard FoMoCo one for 1980-1985 should be best.
 
"...commonly fitted with it in overdrive 4N71B form.
Its 85% a fully rollerised 76-80 Ford Granada/ 74-82 Ford Courier JATCO , but with a huge OD unit added in between... You found it on the 250 engined Granadas, they had a SBF bell housing, and mated to a 1982-1985 JATCO Overdrive, 0.68:1 if you got the right one, and a shorter Datsun/Nissan extension housing…."

so the doner is 76-80 (what motor/model?) Grenade-a, 74-82 Courier (the diesel model?), 82-85 D/Nissan (know the model?) ?
Sounds like a nice find. (Kinda the link between C4 & AOD)?
May B that fitted to the pinto/Lima turboed (isn't that what the pic in #6 post are) would spirit the 57 y/o falcon along?
 
If you're thinking of going to an automatic, go with the 4R70W and buy the controller. You can control the shift points and dial it in electronically without the vagaries of hydraulic control.
 
Econoline":2rgan2nl said:
It'll be easy to tunnel the body than reuse the old bell ect. The beauty of it is you can use a 4R70W or any sbf manual trans you want on the 250.

Econoline":2rgan2nl said:
If you're thinking of going to an automatic, go with the 4R70W and buy the controller. You can control the shift points and dial it in electronically without the vagaries of hydraulic control.

Amen, great advice e

but its just HUGE. It might j-u-s-t fit after what is called Persuasive Percussion...




Not just at the firewall, but right a long the too small transmission tunnel. The pre 62-1/2 Fords, they are Pinto size in that area. Its just like fitting a small block C6 trans into a Pinto. Then, you have to decide How to Hang It... there isn't anything where it should be, and parts get in the way...

In 1971 Ford Australia had to graft in the 70-1/2 Falcon chassis bulge from firewall to transmount to fit a 250 Falcon engine with its TopLoader or sedan C4 gearbox into a Pinto sized Cortina.

The amount of work just can't be comprehended untill you move between a stock Cortina, and an Aussie one. The difference is MASSIVE. Expanding the tunnel in a steel unibody, you'll potentially nerk your classic car. It can be done, but it requires some serious smarts with what Rick Wrench calls


the American BFH to flatten the end, it is very similar to the much more civilized British VLH

If its just the short case AOD, you'll J-U-S-T be okay. The 4R70W will be the straw that breaks the cammels back with the 60 Falcon. The AOD is FMX/ Truck C4/ C5 sized, the 4R70W is almost C6/ E4OD sized.

In the small six 2.77 trans equiped Fords (1960 to 1966 Falcons, first and 2nd year Mustangs) , people in Holland tend to use the Sierra/Merkur T9 5 speeds. Certain versions can take 205 lb-ft with ease, often a lot more.

viewtopic.php?t=34376

But not everyone; jdn21758 uses the stock 1968 Ford Mustang floorshift, a boomb proof transmission.

This guy isn't the other fellow identified in the post above , new user since Tue Jun 08, 2010, J.D.N. is a friend, and is not Harrie... jdn21758 profile is

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=40208

jdn21758":2rgan2nl said:







Way ahead of anyone else, an awesome guy...in a 250 powered 60 Falcon, jdn21758's gearbox is all you need.

and in the US, smaller sedan C4's, or C4's with Gearvendors overdrives because its such a cramped area. Even in Mustangs, which have the Fairlane chassis hump, a smaller than T5 gearbox helps avoid too much tin work.

I think you'd be better off doing a floor pan update like 62Ranchero200 Bob the Builders. The whole section needs so much hammer time to clear, and a special transmount in a place where there is just no space...
 
Re-drill a Lima 8.5" flywheel, 135 teeth, and get the 2.3 Turbo clutch , and then use the Lima 2.3 bellhousing on a 5/16 adaptor. Then use the S10 Chevy 1354 5 speed. No floor work at all. The 4 cyl pilot bearing has to suit the 250/SBF Pilot bearing, but that's covered.


Speaking of Persuasive Percussion, Follow Rock Drummer Rick Wrenches post on it. It has the strength, the compact size, and ease of fitment that would impress anyone at a car show.

"7-25-03 Falcon Transmission Updates" on http://www.rickwrench.com/index79.htm

rickwrench":2voxunp2 said:
This is the location of the shifter in relation to the seats when using the S10 tailhousing. The S-10 tailhousing will fit on any T5, GM or Ford, just make sure you use the right tailshaft bushing, as Ford and GM slip yokes have slightly different OD sizes. The slip yoke may fit with the wrong bushing, but you will have driveline vibration. More about THAT issue on the Maverick 4 lug 8" rear page.
The S-10 tailhousing locates the shifter well forward of the tunnel brace, a great location for bench seats, or if you have a console. I bought a Hurst quick shifter for S10, it made a HUGE difference in shifter throw. Shifts are precise and positive compared to the stock (with a modified stick) S10 shifter. It also has shifter stops to prevent overshifting. The S10 T5s have two 1st gear ratios, 4.03 and 3.76. The 3.76 works great with the I6 engines and a 3.0 rear. It wasn't bad with the 3.50 rear either.

T5S10shifterlocation.jpg



There are some crazy 1970-only Maverick 250 2.33:1 8" axle ratios, aside from the more common 2.79, 2.93/3.00/3.25/3.40/3.80 etc.

If you can't track that down, AMC use a foreign Fox body axle used in Mexican Fairmonts and Mustangs....they have an I6 ratio of 2.21:1, for a DANA 36 gearset used in the '1980/81 Concorde.

Either axles are easy swaps due to there width, and allow you to run the hugest ratio spread ever. 1.85:1 is not too tall for a 250 in a 1960 Falcon....Basically the same as the 86 and 87 Mustang 5.0's with T5 and 2.73:1 axle.

62 mph, 1570 rpm, right where maximum torque is in 5th gear.
 
Yeah it's definitely huge. And it's an inch or so longer than an aod. But having complete control is priceless, I wish I had one. My 15" drive shaft would be 14" lol
 
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