144 vs 170 Head dimensions

matcox83

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Hi everyone. "This is not a which head should I use?" post. No advice about that please :)

Offy used to make a 3-1V adapter for the 144 then another for the 170/200.

Can anyone give a definitive answer on if there is a dimensional difference in the logs?

I'm going to check my Performance Handbook when I get home, but hoping somebody knows.

And yes, I expect to be carrying the adapters as soon as they make some!

Thanks,
Matt
 
matcox83":1n0sl8tq said:
Hi everyone. "This is not a which head should I use?" post. No advice about that please :)

Offy used to make a 3-1V adapter for the 144 then another for the 170/200.

Can anyone give a definitive answer on if there is a dimensional difference in the logs?

I'm going to check my Performance Handbook when I get home, but hoping somebody knows.

And yes, I expect to be carrying the adapters as soon as they make some!

Thanks,
Matt


Yes, Matt, I can confirm every casting from C1 170 on was different to the first 144.

The 144, it kept the same casting. adamscm has a 144 head on his car. I'll ask him to weigh in, he'll have the details i'm quite sure.

I used the C1 170 head because its the first revision, and was used on everything from 170's to the 1966 Aussie 200 I got the head off.
 
I pm'd adamscm, he has that amazing 144 rebuild.

Here are my first year of my head. Probably too late to snaffle every detail, but perhaps we can compare the following with his:-

1. C1UE 6049 A 170 head casting.

2. Date code 24 J 3

3. Carb Intake hole size 1.300"

IMG_6744.jpg


4. The thread is 1/8" BSP for the water temperature sensor(I looked at the 1960 to 1967 sensors for 144-170-200's [ your US XK200 which we called an XK, XL,XM, XP, and your US 1966 Falcon which we called an XR] and they are all standard US sizes coincident with those years)

IMG_7147.jpg


5. vac picup is 1/8" BSP, same as for the water temperature sensor

IMG_7254.jpg


6. My casting was unchanged, although I did put a kickdown lever mount on it, everything else was 100 % stock.

Here is the back exhaust port

IMG_7028.jpg
 
That's great. The carb bore might be one of the most important.

Any idea if the log diameter/circumference was different? The volumes are supposed to be very slightly different.

I'm talking to Offenhauser about the 144 version.
 
matcox83":qy6k9nfc said:
That's great. The carb bore might be one of the most important.

Any idea if the log diameter/circumference was different? The volumes are supposed to be very slightly different.

I'm talking to Offenhauser about the 144 version.

Yeah , much bigger. In side, Rick Wrench did a band saw through his and it had 1.125" 1-1/8" nominal ports. Looking at the early Strop Bros conversion, the 144 log is a heap smaller in diameter, probably the same 1-1/8" internally.

From Chris just before...

adamscm":qy6k9nfc said:
.... My head casting is a "C0 DE"', meaning 1960 design, even though it's a 62 head. I know that 170 heads, even from the same year, have slightly larger valves. And at some point (63?) they started using hydraulic lifters, so I don't know if that affected the head. Hope that helps, Chris


Rick Wrenches 1965 Squire Falcon had a non standard 200 from a 65 mustang

"12-25-05
250/2V head
Merry Christmas to me!"
http://www.rickwrench.com/index79.htm
Not sure if this C2 head was from the 65 200 Mustang.

Anyway,
Port comparisons:

C2 head with log sawn off to expose intake port. 1.125" across.
logportruler.jpg


C2 exhaust port. 1" across

logexruler.jpg
 
C1 head 170

choppedhead.jpg



viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12675
rickwrench":2qu81oxw said:
It was very easy to chop, I gave the head and a 12 pack of Sierra Nevada pale ale to my brother, and it came back chopped and milled about three hours later (we then drank most of the beer). He used a very large band saw and then a vertical mill to make it pretty.

This was mostly an information gathering experiment. I may not use this head for anything, depending on how the hex-log head looks. If I do use it, I think six runners to a plenum topped with a TBI unit would be just the ticket.

What I learned was:
The C1 casting's intake runners are nearly round in cross section with an inner diameter of about 1 1/8". They look oval in that original pic, but that's because they run at a 40 degree angle to the plane of the cut.
chop1.jpg


There is enough meat left for freeze plugs.
chop2.jpg


The valve guide boss on the intake is huge.
chop4.jpg


There isn't one on the exhaust side, but there is a big ridge that should be smoothed out.
chop3.jpg


I'm going to do a later hex-log next to see the what the differences are. Also I think I'll have it cut it at a little bit of an angle toward the valve cover. More pics soon.
Rick(wrench)
 
I guess only pictures help, Matt.


I've gone thru google, and the C3OE 6049 head below is legitimate!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/60 ... 1ba258.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... e2ce28.jpg

243 @ 6800 on the engine dyne, 144 Ford https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZDfMDIrVcU

Below (very bottom) is a C3OE head in blue paint below, showing the missmatch.



...Yellow valve cover, black block isn't listed, and the blue paint hue and color is legitimate.

CP is a common later boss casting, so are drain holes in the log flange


As you'll know from http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thre ... ion.91832/

re quoted from Ford Six anyway

1960 only available with 144. 1961-1964 available with 144 or 170.
Color of valve cover and air breather:
144-Ford medium Blue
170-Red/Orange
200-Red/Orange (after June 1, 1965 production date entire engine Ford Medium Blue)

" 1.the earlier 144/170 types from C1- C3 with 1.3" holes (660 cc intake runner)
2. the air injection 1966 head casting with 1.3" hole (got a photo!)
3. the first of the integrated emissions heads in 1969 (860 cc ) Flat top
4. the first of the big hole 250 heads in 1970 (which were not inserted) but had 1.5" holes ,
5. then a mix of large runner 74 (inserted seats)
6. the better bigger exhast 3.3/4.1 heads (seats which were inserted)
7. and the revision in late 82, which had a different shape, and a huge intake runner volume)."

Item 7 wrong, 1980 model year had the casting shape change


The 144 head at 660 cc's intake volume, its going to look a lot like the blue painted head below.


1. Offenhauser triple carb manifold #5017 (Officially discontinued)

On C0 OE 6090 head, no capacity


See the water heating conduit or the aluminum casting runner tract, the reduced height through bolt bosses, and no Offenhauser.

Lots of differences.


173_0312_six_8a_z.jpg


ford-170-244-250-jpg.159741



Regards the 5205,


2. Its not gonna fit the 144 head...https://fordsix.com//viewtopic.php?t=26778


Linc's 200":1f8ru8d9 said:
f0ssil":1f8ru8d9 said:
Anyone got close-up pictures on how they solved the throttle linkage, fuel linkage etc on these babies.

ofy-5205_w.jpg


The Summit catalog description says it comes with the linkage parts.

"Includes installation kit with progressive linkage."

http://store.summitracing.com/default.a ... p&x=47&y=8

Only $230 :)


beeker67":1f8ru8d9 said:
muddafugga":1f8ru8d9 said:
will this work on the 144? just curious.

Nope. 170, 200 , and 250 only.




3. 5205, it sometimes won't work with the C3 OE heads without work...

I found a C3 OE 6090-D Cleveland Plant foundary head....Member 61Falke's tried putting an Offy 5205 on it.


It was suggested it might be a C3 OE 6090 D "144" head; I'm sure it is.

Offenhauser triple carb manifold #5205 did not fit it, but it was close. You do get problems like this.


Regards the 5970 Offy, Summit screwed up the listing Applications....

Url ----> https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ ... plications


Application list wrong, says its Small bolt spacing C0 OE "170" head before the large C9 flat top revision, but clearly the later DE "170" log design.
This is for 1974 or earlier carb stud spacings

Offenhauser triple carb manifold #5205 Large bolt spacing post C9 Flat top log , Large bolt spacing D8 dog turd on wards
Url ----> https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ ... /year/1969

Application list right, Ford: 1960-69 170-200 Falcon 6 Triple Manifold (5205), but wrong for any year 144 head. Clearly for Small bolt spacing C0 OE 6090 144 head before the large C1DE 6090 "170" cubic inch revision

And your 144 head to 5205 Offy missmatch... care of the HAMBERS at jalopyjournal...some of whom walk umungst us...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thre ... ed.799127/


photo-1-jpg.1928047


photo-2-jpg.1928048


photo-3-jpg.1928049


photo-4-jpg.1928050


photo-5-jpg.1928051


6-jpg.1928052


8-jpg.1928053
 
I know you've been back for a little while now, but I'm very happy you are!! Thank you so much.

BTW- I have 6 144 heads in various stages of modification. Two different mechanical fuel injection styles. They came off hydroplane racers from the 60's. I hope to get at least one of the engines running. The Hilborn injection would look fantastic on a Model T if I could find somebody to make it even semi-streetable!
 
matcox83":3pnombuy said:
I know you've been back for a little while now, but I'm very happy you are!! Thank you so much.

BTW- I have 6 144 heads in various stages of modification. Two different mechanical fuel injection styles. They came off hydroplane racers from the 60's. I hope to get at least one of the engines running. The Hilborn injection would look fantastic on a Model T if I could find somebody to make it even semi-streetable!


Yep, time is against me again, but I hope I can die happy! Americans are finally talking to one another and having fun with these old piece of iron to the the tune of 200 hp or more. Job Done for me!


These engines get a lot of Luv....Little engines are the Next Big Thing!

I knew you'd have all the interesting bits...the engine was bored out to 156 cubes and used to 8500 rpm back in the day.


Any extra photos of the 144 heads to back up the differences, help Matt out.

1. head casting eg C0 OE 6049 X 144 , or where the firing order lexican is (thats Lexican, ie stensiled letters, not Mexican chad. I'm a Mexican since I'm so far South).

2. Date code eg 24 J 3

3. Carb Intake hole size 1.300"
and maybe How much the studs poke out



4. vac picup hole and how it sits compared to the base of the carb studs. It is the 1/8" BSP thread thingy below the carb on the passenger side temperature sensor


5. General shape of the top of the "log"with carb hole in the center.



hydro144":3pnombuy said:
Hello,
Ive been lurking around this site for a couple of years while building a 144 for a hydroplane and wanted to say thanks to every one for all the info here. I couldnt have done it without this site and the handbook!
I posted a video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThCyWKjW-6E

you may notice the transmission I am not building the boat to race ,just for fun and want to be able to dock easily

Dave
 
lexican / mexican
"…so far south…"
but
not as far south as Oz…
(thnx 4 not abandoning the 144 Matt).
(Try 4 more on da 300?)
 
:p

Just for you, my man!

It depends on iffing if your a flat earther, or NOT I guess. Place a piece of string on tha globe from your place...I guess the Great Oz is further away...neva thought of that...


BACK TO THE 144...


We luv pic, yes??
 
Any pics of the underside of the Offy intake? I'm curious how the outer carbs seal to the top of the log. What are the carb spacing dimensions between the carbs? It wouldn't be hard for me to make patterns to cast a manifold for either the 144 or other small 6's.
 
xctasy":1fcym035 said:
matcox83":1fcym035 said:
I knew you'd have all the interesting bits...the engine was bored out to 156 cubes and used to 8500 rpm back in the day.


]

i make this approx 150 thou overbore on the 144 ci 3.5" bore

does anybody know if the 144 blocks can take this as standard ?- or do you need to do a bit of selective searching to get a 144 block that will bore this far ?

anybody know what pistons they use ?
 
gb500":39vsbsow said:
xctasy":39vsbsow said:
matcox83":39vsbsow said:
I knew you'd have all the interesting bits...the engine was bored out to 156 cubes and used to 8500 rpm back in the day.


]

i make this approx 150 thou overbore on the 144 ci 3.5" bore

does anybody know if the 144 blocks can take this as standard ?- or do you need to do a bit of selective searching to get a 144 block that will bore this far ?

anybody know what pistons they use ?


3.5" piston, 1.698 or 1.738" compression height if used with 7.803 "0" deck. approx (IIRC) with 4.815 or 4.855" inch rods.


Holden pistons would work.

The bigger 200 engines didn't fully adapt to Thin wall untill after 1963, were shell molded Cleveland 351C style from 1969 onwards.


1/8 over bores are possiable, just like the old Kent OHV fours with 80% sucess rate at 1/8"...

144/170 were not 130 thou wall thibkness engines at the thrust faces, they had more metal in the early versions. Drop a frost plug on any early 144/170, and you'll get well over 180 thou wall thickness
 
xctasy":12ztotgh said:
Rick Wrenches 1965 Squire Falcon had a non standard 200 from a 65 mustang

Not sure if this C2 head was from the 65 200 Mustang.

My 1962 Squire has a '65 small bell Mustang 200. Courtesy of the PO. Still running fine at 200k+ miles.
The head I chopped in those old pics that X posted was a 1962 170 head.

Rick (wrench)
 
rickwrench":1r9qx1f6 said:
xctasy":1r9qx1f6 said:
Rick Wrenches 1965 Squire Falcon had a non standard 200 from a 65 mustang

Not sure if this C2 head was from the 65 200 Mustang.

My 1962 Squire has a '65 small bell Mustang 200. Courtesy of the PO. Still running fine at 200k+ miles.
The head I chopped in those old pics that X posted was a 1962 170 head.

Rick (wrench)


Thanks RW!


Heres the #5017 Offy kit.

mump_0312_10_+six_cylinder_performance_guide+_offenhauser.jpg




And the Hilborne 144 system.

mump_0312_22_%2bsix_cylinder_performance_guide%2b_hillborn_injectors.jpg


Way back in 2003 from Jim Smarts http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/mu ... nce-guide/


CNC-Dude":1r9qx1f6 said:
Any pics of the underside of the Offy intake? I'm curious how the outer carbs seal to the top of the log. What are the carb spacing dimensions between the carbs? It wouldn't be hard for me to make patterns to cast a manifold for either the 144 or other small 6's.


CNC-Dude, carb 1 and three lines up with the head bolt centres which are 4.08" cylinder to cylinder, so that makes it 4 times 4.08, or 16.32" from front to back (414.528 metra mathingamies), or 8.16 inch centers.
 
Any C9 or later head will work fine. Chances are any head needs a valve job. Up sizing the valves and/or putting in seats isn't rocket science for the machinist. The 'hardened' seats in a lot of the oem heads were induction hardened, not inserts. According to some I trust, it really makes little difference with today's fuel and good ford castings. Any increase in log volume is lost in the design.
 
The 5017 Offy adaptor. Some more pictures.




Like the Ford Industrial 170 and 200's made between the late 60s and early 70's for threshers and wood chipers and standy engines, the Governer forced the carbs to be swung thru 90 degrees, which is why all small Ford sixes have alloy adaptors.



Carb placement isn't as much of an issue with the three entry points for fuel air at wide open throttle.
 
(last pic)
Don't think I've seen em turned 90* like that…
in such a case the linkage needs total re-work? Y turn them (guvnah - never needed politics /or/ automobiles) like that?

BTW: Great article link above: the 1st paragraph sez it all. Most concise explanation I've seen for 6 v 8 design and tq results. Over on FTE when I mention this advantage & how it's created I get laughed offa da forum.
:duh:
People do agree the 300 / 4.9 is "a great truck motor" but chalk it up to a "mystery factor".
;)
 
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