can i bore and stroke a 64 144ci to a 200ci

falcon_master

Well-known member
I was thinking because pre 1965 200 six engines bad only four heading and the blocks are almost identical that i could bore and stroke my old 1964 144ci inline six to 200ci. Would that be possible or would it destroy the block thanks
 
you could possible bore the block out, but you would be getting well into the water jacket. however, if you can find an early 200 four main crank, and find someone to make you a custom set of pistons, you could make a 188ci engine from the 144.
 
The previous poster probably knows a lot more than me, I always thought the block generally was the same, so I didn't think about water jackets being a problem. However, at the least, you would need a 4-main 200 crank (probably fairly rare) and you would still need to use solid lifters, since the 144 does not have the oil system for hydraulics. Also, you would have to stay with the original distributor with the 1/4" drive shaft. Not to mention, the valves for a 200 are larger, so you'd probably need a new head, or serious work on that one. I would just find a 200, 7 main to rebuild, and keep the 144 in case you ever wanted to go original again.
 
adamscm":26io5012 said:
The previous poster probably knows a lot more than me, I always thought the block generally was the same, so I didn't think about water jackets being a problem. However, at the least, you would need a 4-main 200 crank (probably fairly rare) and you would still need to use solid lifters, since the 144 does not have the oil system for hydraulics. Also, you would have to stay with the original distributor with the 1/4" drive shaft. Not to mention, the valves for a 200 are larger, so you'd probably need a new head, or serious work on that one. I would just find a 200, 7 main to rebuild, and keep the 144 in case you ever wanted to go original again.


^ best advice from adamscm (y)
A little back ground info on how far you can streatch the frienship...



A thinwall engine is Detriots re-inventing in 1955 the Northern Italy firm OS's thinwall casting techniques. They made little 121 cubic inch sixes with thinwall cylinders back in 1919....pre-dating Flint and Dearborn 36 years or more. Harvey Earls 265 V8 and Stirrets 221 Thin wall Fairlane were landmark engines, they killed off aluminum engine construction for 30 pluss years, and Chryslers alloy slant six, Buick Ols Pontiac 215 V8's, AMC's 232 aluminum sixes became uneconomic due to Fords 62 Winsor 221/260 engine. Score Ford!


The 1955 Small block ChevThin wall engines could be overbored 1/8" in most cases. Fords landmark 1962 Thinwall Windsor engine was much thinner in casting than the SBC ended up being. 180 thou between the cylibder walls with a liitle over 200 tho elseware.


The six cylinder production line took a little while to adapt to the Winsdor way of doing things. By 1969, the 170/200/250 engines were down to 193 thou averge casting thickness according to Ak Miller in 1970. The cylinder walls of pre 1969 3.5" bore engines are the thickest of all so called thin wall Ford engines, except for the 370/429/460 and the last of the post 1977-1983 351m and 400 engines. FE 332-428's were never really thinwall engines, and that's why people still stroke, alloy head and play with these engines today.

From another post on overboring a 144....

Nominal piston size for the 144 was 3.50" piston, 1.698 or 1.738" compression height if used with 7.803 "0" deck. They were not made that way with 0 decks. The rods were approx (IIRC) with 4.815 or 4.855" inch rods, have to check the handbook again.

The South Americans turned there 144/170 engines into the Argentine 187...it is a 144 engine with a 62.5 thou overbore (3.5625" or 3-9/16") and a US four bearing 200 crank sloted in. No new headgasket, stock block, just

1. overbored pistons and block
2 a special oil pump and
2. 200 cam with the scollops to clear the pistons and
3. 4.715" forged 200 Ford conrods .


The engine decks were about 7.830 from factory.


GM or Mopar aftermarket white box Sivolite pistons would work. A 3.68 +180 thou oversize is possiable , but there is a chance core shift or wall thickness might not be uniform, and sleeving won't save somehting if you are going up on bore size from stock. Sleeving is used to maintain a stock bore size if a cylinder wall has cracked or failed to suvive a moderate overbore.

The bigger 200 engines didn't fully adapt to Thin wall untill after 1963, were shell molded Cleveland 351C style from 1969 onwards.




1/8 over bores are possiable, just like the old Kent OHV fours with 80% sucess rate at 1/8"...

144/170 were not 130 thou wall thibkness engines at the thrust faces, they had more metal in the early versions. Drop a frost plug on any early 144/170, and you'll get well over 180 thou wall thickness


In the 1970's Cosworth asked Ford to make some overbored Kent and Essex 60 degree blocks, and the British Unions refused to rework the blocks on the production line.

Cosworth had been through this excersise with Chevrolet over the Vega engine, so the solution was to get a whole lot of stock blocks, and overbore them, and collect statistics on failure % verses blocks bore. 100% is a 100% chance you can overbore the specfied amount without failure. For example 2, the 4" piston RS3400 Quad Cam coversion to the stock 3 liter Essex 60 degree V6, only 20% of 320 thou overbored engine blocks would survive the machining process.

The details below in Example 1, 2 and Example 3, is a non thinwalled Holden engine about the same era as the 144 Ford. I'd expect similar chances of sucess. Ford decided to recast the block to make 200 engines , even early 200 4 main bearing engines in Fairlanes were different to the 144/170 casting. Cams will interfer with the crankshaft, there are lots of little clearancing issues with the oil pump.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71410&p=548263#p548263
xctasy":26io5012 said:
mike1157":26io5012 said:
But......will they be able to bore the block .230 w/o turning it into garbage?

Yes. I know for a fact that in a production block 250 with a liner, that will work fine. The Australian Geelong plants made there own versions of the US Cleveland engines, AND THEY categorically used to have liners attached from the factory at greater wall thickness than that. GM England's Vauxhall division used to have a recommendation with the four bearing L6 3.25" 2651 cc and 3.625" bore 3294 cc engine that a standard sized bore be used with a 3.375 or 3.875" overbore. This was a 125 thou wall thickness liner. That's 250 thou over.

You can certainly re-bore some of the older non siamese cast iron Ford and GM engines 230 thou without a cylinder liner, and get an engine to survive. The standard Detroit thinwall non linered rules have always been 60 thou over is the most, with 20 to 30 thou the suggested maximum if its a Cleveland 351, Windsor 5.0, or iron block Chevy 305/350. With a liner, Ford and Chev generally said take it back to stock bore, with a 125 thou thick liner the suggested minimum. Factory Cleveland 302 and 351 Aussie engines were partly linered from the factory from 1972 to 1979; the whole of those short deck 335 engines had way to much core shift in there production processes and failure in service ment Ford Australia had to recoup the scrapage rate, and so until a landmark case in 1979 which ruled the process unacceptable from a consumer perspective after Ford Australia got taken to court by a 1978 XC Fairmont V8 owner, you'll constantly find many reports of production RPO blocks reworked with liners in them.

A thin wall iron block Chevy V8 under a high load drag or circuit racing situation certainly won't cope with as much overbore as an iron blocked i4 or I6. Strongest thin wall engine ever made was the 180 thick cylinder walls of the early 3.875" 283 and then the better low core shift 350 Chev cylinder blocks. The early 283 ones could take a 125 thou over bore and survive in a hardfill drag race engine, but the later 350 blocks would break with just 60 thou over, but they were in 12:1 compression engines under extreme duty.

Eg 1. X Flow Ford Kent 4 cylinder found in early Pintos, Cortinas, rear drive Escorts and Fiestas could be taken out to +153.5 with 80% reliability in stock 711M blocks to +212 thou with 80 % reliability in an South African AX blocks from a stock 1500 or 1600 cc 3.19" bore size. They used to furnace braze old Ford production iron blocks for BDA racing engines before the HART blocks.

Eg 2. The 3 liter 60 degree Ford Dagenham 'Essex' engines could be taken out to 330 thou to 4" from a stock 3.672" bore size with 80% of blocks so bored becoming scrap. They used those in 450 hp quad cam GAA racing engines.

Eg 3. The thick wall 1948 to 1958 and Holden 132.5 cubic inch I6 Grey Motors . +187.5 thou from an un-rusted early 3.00" bore block without bore distortion, and +247.5 with quite a lot of distortion.

Eg 4. Linered iron Nissan 1985 to 1996 RB24, 26, and 30 blocks converted to Skyline GTR spec can make 900 to 1000 hp turbo charged, and can cope with 103 thick liners from a stock 85 mm bore with perfect reliability.

As soon as you add a liner with a bare minimum of interference fit, you get a great deal of strength back.
 
Its a crazy idea. You can get a 200 cheap and easy and it will have 7 main bearings
 
Thanks everyone for the info where can i find a 200 6 i saw one on eBay but its local pickup only any online store that have this.
 
Craigslist, people are still pulling them from mustangs. Also yards for any 70's car that may have one, mavericks, fairmonts, ect
 
Where are you located? Someone from the forum may be able to help you locate one.
 
car-parts.com
place "Denver area" in the correct box
(as well as yr, make, model, etc).
Upcomes a list of local (state, region, national) junk yrds.
w/$ & condition~

* Our '4sale' forum
* Fleebay
* Craig's List
* Monthly local 'wheeler dealer' (someXs free - local cars/prts 4sale, someXs small change mag w/newspaper paper cover/pages)
* on line "clubs" named after the model w/dat motor
etc

Good Luck, let us know what U find!
Don't 4get to do ur 'due diligence' B4 da buy...
 
All of the above sources are good suggestions. I would also add to check with some of the local machine shops and Mustang specialty shops like Colorado Mustang Specialist in Aurora. If you are patient you can watch craigslist for a while an one will show up. Most people are uninformed and consider these boat anchors so they are usually cheap which is part of why I like them so much!

While I agree that a 7 main bearing 200 would be the most desirable I see from you Want Ad post that you would look at a 170. There is one for sale on Craigslist in Colorado Springs for $200.00

https://cosprings.craigslist.org/pts/6075659946.html
 
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