Yet another static compression ratio question

ledslinger29

Well-known member
I finally got my head back from the shop today for my 170. I feel like its my birthday! So I crunched some numbers on what my SCR will be, and this is what I got:
Bore =3.56" (previous owner bored .060 over)
Stroke = 2.94"
Head gasket thickness = .045 (advertised crush thickness for the FelPro gaskets)
piston top volume = 0 cc
Combustion Chamber = 52 cc
Deck height = .052?
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If I mathed this right, that should give me an SCR of 8.07, and if I have them take a little off the bottom of the head to bring the chamber down to 48 cc's that should put me at 8.51.

SO, i got the oversized valves from Matt, put a Schneider 248/56H cam in it, and had hardened seats, fancy valve seals, stiffer springs, and a three angle valve job down with the 30 degree backcut. Also had the port divider installed, in the event I want to go with headers one day.

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For a weekend driver, with a little extra umph, what do you guys think i should push for on SCR? I don't mind buying premium fuel, and I live in Florida (at sea level).

IF my math is correct, I'd have to take the combustion down to 44 cc's to get to a 9.01 SCR. would that be a bad thing?
 
:unsure: I think you may be off some on your piston to deck height measurement, stock they were about in the .019 to .025 range. In any case you would probally gain better results by Zero decking the block thereby tightening the quench area instead of cutting the head down more. The ideal quench is about .035 to .045 so with the new style gaskets you would be right in the ball park if its Zero decked. Good luck on your build :nod:
 
I can't think of a better way than what I have pictured to measure the deck height. What I did does leave room for error as you have to rotate the arm the depth gauge is mounted on...
 
The piston depth is good. It is better if you check it near the center of the piston where there is no piston tilt.
If you move the dial indicator from the deck to the piston center several times and get good repeatability then I would say you are good.
Check both cylinders #1 and #6 for piston height.

I will agree that it would be better to machine the block deck to increase the compression ratio.
 
I forgot about a couple of tools I had in my box, I had some feeler gauges and a digital caliper, and measuring the deck height along the axis of the crank I got somewhere b/w .05 and .06, so thats a little better. Now I've got to decide if I really want to pull my whole block back apart and go through the whole degreeing process all over again after I get the block decked.
 
that part's only labor… C what the 'zero deck' mill costs
then decide !
"...gain better results by Zero decking the block thereby tightening the quench area instead of cutting the head down…"
2X (y) :nod:
 
Somthing seams to be a bit different in your combo, the stock compression ratio on a 1965 to 72 170 is rated at 8.7 to 1. The 170 Heads can CC at anywhere from 48 to 53 with yours being more towards the higher amount plus the new style thicker head gasket that would drop the compression ratio quite a bit. So maybe your estaminet of 8.07 to 1 is really close, so your giving up quite a bit power with that loss of 3/4 of a point in compression. :unsure: The early 200's were also rated at 8.7 to 1 with a .019 deck height. As far as taking it apart you shouldn't have to re-degree the cam as that shouldn't change any from where it is now if its reassembled as it is now. Ie cam gear positions. Good luck :nod:
 
I think I may have figured out way my deck height is so much more than advertised. I assumed the stroke was 2.94 as advertised, it's actually only 2.924, measured on multiple cylinders. That would account for the extra head space. Crank is ground .010 under, and has .010 under bearings, so I wouldn't think it would change, but I could be wrong.
 
With stroke of 2.924", .044" gasket, 52cc chambers, your cam specs, .0525" deck clearance, 3.56" bore

I come up with: 7.93:1 Static and 6.86:1 Dynamic. Almost a point off oem.

With 48cc chambers & a .025" steel oem shim gasket= SCR- 8.78:1/DCR- 7.58-1
 
So what's the consensus? Y'all think I should try to find one of those steel shim gaskets and mill the head, or take .050 off the block?
 
No problem.

If you took .050" off the deck(not sure how much is safe) left the chambers @ 52cc's, and calculate using a compressed gasket thickness of .044"(safe), figuring deck clearance @ .0025", you'd be @ 8.86:1/7.65:1 with a quench distance of .0465". Also take the head to 50cc's = 9.13:1/7.87:1
 
DO NOT FORGET, the octane of regular gas when the 170 was new was 92! My 65 Mustang came with 9.2-1 compression and like most old V8 Hot Rodders, I bumped compression up too much and busted #6 compression ring. That caused a .060 overbore which is not normally recommended for the 200 six. My Static is now 8.7 and my dynamic is 7.4 so I use 89 octane mostly. Lower 87 can be used if I drop the static back about 2/3 degrees. I don't go over 36 degrees total because I have found here in Texas some stations sell 86 octane as regular. Throw alcohol (Ethanol) into this mix and problems surface very fast. I am 73 years old and an ASE certified engine rebuilder who spent my youth racing small block chevies in the 60's - 70's in a 1940 Ford coupe. I got serious about Fords small 6 about 25 years ago, and todays gas, our Ford 6 design, hot Texas weather, ethanol, too much compression coupled with too much timing advance can AND WILL cause serious damage! Stay with dynamic timing at or below 7.5-1. Formulas are available on-line. The cam intake valve closing is critical on our six. The later it closes the less dynamic (think REAL) compression we have. Rod length also plays a factor and thin head gaskets don't last as well as Felpro new style. Better to have a few less ponies and still be able to ride!! Charlie Cheap, retired car builder, federally licensed gunsmith, Mustang 6 Association 1st gen. SIX cylinder GURU and late blooming SIX cylinder freak! Stay safe sixers.
 
Welcome back CC
thnks 4 da post
 
ledslinger29":1724pf0p said:
I think I may have figured out way my deck height is so much more than advertised. I assumed the stroke was 2.94 as advertised, it's actually only 2.924, measured on multiple cylinders. That would account for the extra head space. Crank is ground .010 under, and has .010 under bearings, so I wouldn't think it would change, but I could be wrong.

Yes you are right that crank being ground .010 under shouldn't normally affect anything, that's a real shame they probably weren't too careful about indexing the crank when it was reground under. If it had the stock 2.94 stroke it would be better and if they had offset ground it in the other direction ie like .036 more then (the 2.94 stock stoke) that would have helped in getting you too a zero deck height. Can you find another 170 crank? :nod:
 
My current engine has .040" under rod bearings. This allowed offset grinding the crank & gives me another .050" of stroke. Very little had to be taken off the deck to zero deck it. This with a .030" over pistons gives me 205 CI.
 
Given the wealth of information you guys have so generously provided. I'm thinking about maybe just biting the bullet and taking the whole bottom end back apart and get it decked down .050. I had time to do a little better measuring tonight, and I'm getting .052 on all cylinders. If I get it ground down .050 and stick with the Felpro gasket I should be a hair under 9 on the SCR, which will give me power but hopefully keep me out of the danger zone. I did som looking around for 170 cranks, and they all look pretty rough or are more expensive than getting the block decked. But keep the advice coming, I've always got time to make an informed decision
 
Charlie Cheap":2n9qgw3o said:
DO NOT FORGET, the octane of regular gas when the 170 was new was 92! My 65 Mustang came with 9.2-1 compression and like most old V8 Hot Rodders, I bumped compression up too much and busted #6 compression ring. That caused a .060 overbore which is not normally recommended for the 200 six. My Static is now 8.7 and my dynamic is 7.4 so I use 89 octane mostly. Lower 87 can be used if I drop the static back about 2/3 degrees. I don't go over 36 degrees total because I have found here in Texas some stations sell 86 octane as regular. Throw alcohol (Ethanol) into this mix and problems surface very fast. I am 73 years old and an ASE certified engine rebuilder who spent my youth racing small block chevies in the 60's - 70's in a 1940 Ford coupe. I got serious about Fords small 6 about 25 years ago, and todays gas, our Ford 6 design, hot Texas weather, ethanol, too much compression coupled with too much timing advance can AND WILL cause serious damage! Stay with dynamic timing at or below 7.5-1. Formulas are available on-line. The cam intake valve closing is critical on our six. The later it closes the less dynamic (think REAL) compression we have. Rod length also plays a factor and thin head gaskets don't last as well as Felpro new style. Better to have a few less ponies and still be able to ride!! Charlie Cheap, retired car builder, federally licensed gunsmith, Mustang 6 Association 1st gen. SIX cylinder GURU and late blooming SIX cylinder freak! Stay safe sixers.
I think this is a valid warning. I've fought compressions issues on my build. But I think it's pretty safe to say that 8.7:1 with a dcr of 7.5:1 is going to be fine on regular and that's a good target. Anything under 8:1 is low, like hurricane jeep motor low. The fact that the only thing that's keeping the compression from the stock figure is the gasket size is reassuring. Other than a slightly longer duration cam, and the replacement pistons may have lowered it as well with a lower compression height from stock. Ironically it's supposed to help keep the compression in check for head milling, but our gaskets are twice as thick as they were stock :banghead: If you were to deck it to near zero and have ~.045" quench, you may be able to safely go to 9:1 SCR or better. I have no problem with saying you'll be fine @ 7.5-7.7:1 DCR. You're in Florida and it gets hot and humid. The last thing you want is to have to dial back the timing b/c you're pinging the damned thing. It will just get hotter.
 
The D7xx head on my '63 170 wagon was milled to 48cc chambers, back-cut valves, 302 springs and upgraded V seals. . With a stock C8DE (Mav') block and cam and deck height @ .024, the CR calculator yields @ 8.8:1 scr with typical composite gasket (@.044crushed) . With the #7916 Steel shim gasket (@.025 crushed) yields @ 9.3:1 scr on the calculator.

anecdotally:

The 48cc head 170 has been running with the steel shim gasket and 93 octane for @ 12 years with excellent results. With stock cam the 170 does not 'power up' much past 3500 rpm but has plenty of low end torque. With an 1:.68 Overdrive T5 tranny and OEM 3.50:1 axle, the 170 cruises at safer 65-75 mph interstate speeds effortlessly. It's travelled to Falcon Natl's' in RI and regionals in Vermont and MA and efficiently carves the rural backroads while rowing through the 5 spd'.

have fun

'63 Wagon
OEM C8DE Ford 170, Precision Machine D7 Head . Oversize intake valves/1.50 exh with- silicon springs and HD retainers, . Milled head w/ Steel Shim Gasket. CR= 9.3:1. H/W 5200 - 2.8 series (32/36) progressive 2Bbl carb., Exhaust ¾ siamese port divider, Champion racing spark plugs, Contact Point/Condensor distributor, Diaphragm Clutch. T5 Adaptor/5speed tranny, Short throw Hurst Indy shifter, OEM 3.50: rear, Shelby sway bar, Addco rear sway bar , Fabricated subframe connectors / crossmember, Hooker 6601 dual out longtube headers. Shoulder belts front and belts for three in rear, Dual chamber master cylinder, OEM wide-wagon brakes, dual air line rear shocks, 14” wheels & tires, Countersprung Tailgate, Original tube radio …


.
 
ledslinger29":201076wd said:
Given the wealth of information you guys have so generously provided. I'm thinking about maybe just biting the bullet and taking the whole bottom end back apart and get it decked down .050. I had time to do a little better measuring tonight, and I'm getting .052 on all cylinders. If I get it ground down .050 and stick with the Felpro gasket I should be a hair under 9 on the SCR, which will give me power but hopefully keep me out of the danger zone. I did som looking around for 170 cranks, and they all look pretty rough or are more expensive than getting the block decked. But keep the advice coming, I've always got time to make an informed decision
If you go with a victor gasket it is .044" compressed. I have build many engines & the Victor seems to weep less from the drivers side.
195# cranking compression is the max on 93 octane fuel.
The following is a copy & paste from an article on gasoline.
Octane ratings explained
So now we know what engine knock is and how to prevent it. We are ready to look at how anti-knock properties are measured: octane ratings.
There is only one way to measure the anti-knock properties of a fuel: burn it in an engine and see how much it knocks. Obviously, fuel companies don't just tip samples into the gas tank of an old Camaro and drive around listening for the pinging sound. They use special engines which are precise scientific instruments costing in the region of a million dollars each! (The exact price isn't advertised, because if you have to ask, you can't afford it.) These engines allow scientists to precisely measure the amount of knocking caused by a fuel, but they need some kind of standard scale to compare fuels to. This is why the octane rating was developed.(Some rights reserved)
The octane rating isn't really anything to do with octane, but rather its cousin iso-octane that we met on the previous page. (So strictly speaking, an octane number is actually a 2,2,4 trimethylpentane number, but octane is less of a mouthful.) We have already seen how iso-octane is an excellent fuel that is highly resistant to detonation due to its compact, branched structure. Therefore scientists created the octane rating, where iso-octane scores 100. At the other end of the scale is a fuel that scores 0 (zero), and the fuel chosen for this end of the scale was heptane (C7H16). Heptane is highly susceptible to detonation as it consists of 7 carbon atoms in a long, flimsy string. By burning the fuel in a special engine, chemists can measure its anti-knock properties and assign it an octane number relative to mixtures of heptane and iso-octane. There are a couple of different ways to calculate octane number, but they are outside the scope of this guide. Normal unleaded gasoline has an octane rating of around 90 to 95 depending on where you live and the exact method used to calculate the rating. (Fuel that scores 90 octane in North America would be considered roughly 95 octane in Europe due to the different calculation methods.) Gasoline with an octane rating of 90 has the same anti-knock qualities as a mixture of 90% iso-octane and 10% heptane. Octane ratings higher than 100 are possible, as some fuels have better anti-knock properties than 100% iso-octane.
You might wonder what the octane rating of actual octane (known as n-octane) is, as it is even longer and flimsier than heptane. The answer is, bizarre as it sounds, that n-octane has an octane rating of -10 (yes, minus ten!), and is therefore an extremely low-octane fuel. In fact, n-octane has such atrocious anti-knock properties that it is present in pump gasoline only in small amounts. (Gasoline isn't a simple mixture of iso-octane and heptane, but is a carefully blended mixture of various compounds.)
Once scientists had created the octane rating, they could use it to test all fuels, regardless of what they actually contain. In other words, the octane rating is a measure of anti-knock properties, not of the octane content or energy content of a fuel. For instance, ethanol (C2H5OH) has excellent anti-knock properties and has an octane rating in excess of 100. However, ethanol contains less energy per gallon than iso-octane. LPG also contains less energy than gasoline, but is an excellent fuel with an octane rating greater than 100. Similarly, it is possible for two fuels to contain virtually identical amounts of energy but have different octane ratings (n-octane and iso-octane are an excellent example of this as they contain almost identical amounts of energy but there is an enormous difference between their octane ratings).
There is no point using fuel with a higher octane rating than the engine was designed for. So long as the fuel doesn't cause engine knock, it's good enough. Some cars are optimised for higher octane fuel, but can run on slightly lower octane fuel by electronically detecting knock and delaying the spark timing, at the expense of power output and economy. You should use fuel with the octane rating recommended by the car manufacturer. Flex fuel cars that can run on either gasoline or an alternative fuel such as ethanol or LPG must make a compromise, as an engine designed to run on high-octane alternative fuels would knock when running on normal gasoline. Modern, turbocharged flex-fuel cars can alter the boost from the turbocharger to suit the fuel being used, giving good power and performance on both fuels.
Summary
Engine knock is caused by fuel molecules breaking apart and detonating before the flame front in the combustion chamber reaches them.
The engine will be irreparably damaged by the shockwaves from this detonation if it is allowed to continue.
Designing an engine to reduce knock tends to reduce its efficiency and power output. Using a fuel with good anti-knock properties allows designers to squeeze more power and efficiency out of the engine.
Compact, highly-branched fuel molecules tend to be more resistant to knock.
The anti-knock properties of fuel are measured as an octane rating, with zero on the scale producing equivalent levels of knock to heptane (very poor) and 100 being equivalent to iso-octane (excellent). Pump gasoline with an octane rating of 90 has the same anti-knock properties as a mixture of 90% iso-octane and 10% heptane.
Octane rating does not measure octane content or energy content of a fuel, only its anti-knock properties. A fuel with low energy content that contains no octane whatsoever can still have a high octane rating.
Note, the different ratings in the USA vs Europe.
 
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