So, i recently bought my first Mustang, a 1964 1/2 (Originally a 170 but now has a 200 from a 1966 Falcon i believe). The previous owner did not know much about cars so i think im mainly fixing his screw ups. The car currently has a different carb on it and im not sure what model it is, but was hoping someone could identify it in the pictures, because it seems to run pretty rough with whats on it and ive heard that these 200's are picky about there carbs. Ive also heard that this engine should have the Load-O-Matic distributor in it, and im not sure that it does. If someone could tell me if i do from the pictures that would be great. I do have what the owner thought was the original carb, but it appears to be a 1969 carb because it does not have the vent rod or the spark control valve. So my question is, would i be better off switching to this other carb since it is more original, even i have the load o matic and not the SCV? Or should i stick with whats on there and see if i can tune it in? Knowing what carb and distributor are currently on it would be a great help.
Distributor/Carburetor Setup Questions
- Thread starter SeikoSon
- Start date
Howdy SeikoSun:
And welcome to THE FORUM! yes, it is that good.
To answer your questions, the carb in the photo is a Holley Model 1904. It was used on 1960 and 1961 144 engines. It was enlarged and used on the '61 170. 144 carbs were rated at 125 cfm while the the 170 carbs were rated at 150 cfms. They only came with manual chokes. The carb in the photo has a Spark Control Valve (SCV) which makes it compatible with the Load-O-Matic distributor shown in the photo. The SCV sends a load sensitive signal to the vacuum canister on the distributor that advances the ignition. Is this the distributor that was on the 200 engine? The mismatch causes me to think that the vacuum signal is not the correct one for this engine. It would be for a '60 144 engine.
The stock '64 1/2 170 engine came with an Autolite 1100 rated at 156 cfm. It would have a SCV. A 200 engine in '65 would have an Autolite 1100 rated at 185 cfm and also have a SCV. This combo remained in place through the '67 model year. In '68 the Autolite 1100 carb was down sized to 156 CFM with no SCV. They had a ported vacuum source on the carb that matched a new distributor with both vacuum and centrifugal advance.
It will be important to match the carb and distributor. SCV and a LoM distributor or post '69 carb and distributor
A photo of the original 200 carb would be helpful in advising you on which way to go.
Also some more info about you and the car would be helpful in advising. Where are you located (elevation)? Is this a do-it-yourself project? Does the car have a manual or auto trans? How long since any engine work? Carb rebuild?
Have you done any basic maintenance such as a good carb cleaning, checking for vacuum leaks as well as spark plug maintenance like cleaning and regapping? In general, alot of carb problem end up being ignition related.
Do you have a shop manual to help you along?
I hope all this isn't scaring you off. Keep it coming.
Adios, David
And welcome to THE FORUM! yes, it is that good.
To answer your questions, the carb in the photo is a Holley Model 1904. It was used on 1960 and 1961 144 engines. It was enlarged and used on the '61 170. 144 carbs were rated at 125 cfm while the the 170 carbs were rated at 150 cfms. They only came with manual chokes. The carb in the photo has a Spark Control Valve (SCV) which makes it compatible with the Load-O-Matic distributor shown in the photo. The SCV sends a load sensitive signal to the vacuum canister on the distributor that advances the ignition. Is this the distributor that was on the 200 engine? The mismatch causes me to think that the vacuum signal is not the correct one for this engine. It would be for a '60 144 engine.
The stock '64 1/2 170 engine came with an Autolite 1100 rated at 156 cfm. It would have a SCV. A 200 engine in '65 would have an Autolite 1100 rated at 185 cfm and also have a SCV. This combo remained in place through the '67 model year. In '68 the Autolite 1100 carb was down sized to 156 CFM with no SCV. They had a ported vacuum source on the carb that matched a new distributor with both vacuum and centrifugal advance.
It will be important to match the carb and distributor. SCV and a LoM distributor or post '69 carb and distributor
A photo of the original 200 carb would be helpful in advising you on which way to go.
Also some more info about you and the car would be helpful in advising. Where are you located (elevation)? Is this a do-it-yourself project? Does the car have a manual or auto trans? How long since any engine work? Carb rebuild?
Have you done any basic maintenance such as a good carb cleaning, checking for vacuum leaks as well as spark plug maintenance like cleaning and regapping? In general, alot of carb problem end up being ignition related.
Do you have a shop manual to help you along?
I hope all this isn't scaring you off. Keep it coming.
Adios, David
Howdy again:
I just reread your question. Sorry, It's late.
Q- So my question is, would i be better off switching to this other carb since it is more original, even i have the load o matic and not the SCV?
A- No. Because the '69 1100 were downsized in cfm to 150. That is a serious downsize from previous 200 1100s that were rated at 186 cfm. That would mean that you would stick to the L-o-M distributor, for now and hunt up a stock 1965 Autolite 1100 for a 200 engine.
Q- Or should i stick with what's on there and see if i can tune it in?
A- While not the best, because the little Holley is also down on cfm, it is an option and an opportunity to get a little dirty. The engine looks fairly clean with alot of new blue paint dressing it up and the carb does too. The spark plug wires look fairly new also. Those are good signs. A good fuel system cleaning by spraying an aerosol carb cleaner over the outside and inside of the carb as well as a can of fuel system cleaner in the gas tank is a good start.
Next take a look at the inside of the distributor. It should be as clean on the inside as the out. It still has the factory original metal vacuum line from the vacuum canister to the carb. That is less likely to leak vacuum. I already mentioned the spark plugs. clean and regap.
Have you checked the initial advance setting? IF you have a vacuum gauge (a helpful tool and not too expensive) check that and the damper pulley to make sure the timing mark is at TDC.
This could be a fun and rewarding afternoon, but in the end the engine will be down on power because of the puny little (but cute) Holley carb. But- know that the side bowl Holleys are popular with the 3 X 1 guys so don't throw it.
Questions?
Adios, David
I just reread your question. Sorry, It's late.
Q- So my question is, would i be better off switching to this other carb since it is more original, even i have the load o matic and not the SCV?
A- No. Because the '69 1100 were downsized in cfm to 150. That is a serious downsize from previous 200 1100s that were rated at 186 cfm. That would mean that you would stick to the L-o-M distributor, for now and hunt up a stock 1965 Autolite 1100 for a 200 engine.
Q- Or should i stick with what's on there and see if i can tune it in?
A- While not the best, because the little Holley is also down on cfm, it is an option and an opportunity to get a little dirty. The engine looks fairly clean with alot of new blue paint dressing it up and the carb does too. The spark plug wires look fairly new also. Those are good signs. A good fuel system cleaning by spraying an aerosol carb cleaner over the outside and inside of the carb as well as a can of fuel system cleaner in the gas tank is a good start.
Next take a look at the inside of the distributor. It should be as clean on the inside as the out. It still has the factory original metal vacuum line from the vacuum canister to the carb. That is less likely to leak vacuum. I already mentioned the spark plugs. clean and regap.
Have you checked the initial advance setting? IF you have a vacuum gauge (a helpful tool and not too expensive) check that and the damper pulley to make sure the timing mark is at TDC.
This could be a fun and rewarding afternoon, but in the end the engine will be down on power because of the puny little (but cute) Holley carb. But- know that the side bowl Holleys are popular with the 3 X 1 guys so don't throw it.
Questions?
Adios, David
"...the side bowl Holleys are popular with the 3 X 1 guys so don't throw it out…."
U might have seen the models w/a glass (sight) bowl? they're distinctive enuff to not forget
(if only more cfm - I'd mount one, but 3 would B da bomb! check our thread on that)
Keep visitin, wanna know how ya do!
U might have seen the models w/a glass (sight) bowl? they're distinctive enuff to not forget
(if only more cfm - I'd mount one, but 3 would B da bomb! check our thread on that)
Keep visitin, wanna know how ya do!
Wow, I had heard the guys on this forum were good, but Damn. Thanks for the quick and knowledgeable response guys, you've already been a huge help. To clear up some of what I said last night (it was late ), the car is a 64 1/2 but it has a 66 falcon 200 in it. The car has had a previous restoration done at some point, but obviously not a terribly good one. I haven't done much to it yet because I've mainly been trying to figure out what has been done to it and to figure out what needs to be done. The car has a massive oil leak (2 qts in about 90 miles) coming from what seems to be the head gasket so I'm going to tear it down tomorrow and replace it. I'm mainly focused on getting that fixed first.
The car also has some electrical issues, turn signals and radio doesn't work, has a dead short somewhere that blows the fuse after 3 blinks. Some tomfoolery has really been done to this car, but on the upside it's 95% rust free and actually is very early (mustang number 5055).
Getting back to the matter at hand, I'm pretty sure the other carb I have is a post 68 Autolite 1100 carburetor even though the engine is a 66 200. The owner thought it was the original but apparently not. I'll put pictures on here to confirm it with you guys. It is apart as I was rebuilding it to put it back on the car, before I found out it wasn't the right one.
As for vacuum and ignition checks, I haven't done then yet because like I said I haven't messed with it too much, I've mainly been trying to plan a course of action for what to do to the engine.
The car also has some electrical issues, turn signals and radio doesn't work, has a dead short somewhere that blows the fuse after 3 blinks. Some tomfoolery has really been done to this car, but on the upside it's 95% rust free and actually is very early (mustang number 5055).
Getting back to the matter at hand, I'm pretty sure the other carb I have is a post 68 Autolite 1100 carburetor even though the engine is a 66 200. The owner thought it was the original but apparently not. I'll put pictures on here to confirm it with you guys. It is apart as I was rebuilding it to put it back on the car, before I found out it wasn't the right one.
As for vacuum and ignition checks, I haven't done then yet because like I said I haven't messed with it too much, I've mainly been trying to plan a course of action for what to do to the engine.
Attachments
Your SCV carb can be converted to ported vacuum then you can use a 68 & later distributor with centrifugal advance.
The DS11 is the way to go but you need a module such as MSD, GM module, Chrysler & Ford Duraspark. MSD is the best, but more expensive. MSD Blaster 11 or 111 coil. I also sell real HEI new curved distributors. I do not recommend a DUI cause of problems & design issues.
I can modify your SCV carb to be compatible with the later distributors.
On another post a member purchased a rebuilt one from Autozone.
A lot depends on your wallet.
CZLN6 can advise the best years for carbs.
The DS11 is the way to go but you need a module such as MSD, GM module, Chrysler & Ford Duraspark. MSD is the best, but more expensive. MSD Blaster 11 or 111 coil. I also sell real HEI new curved distributors. I do not recommend a DUI cause of problems & design issues.
I can modify your SCV carb to be compatible with the later distributors.
On another post a member purchased a rebuilt one from Autozone.
A lot depends on your wallet.
CZLN6 can advise the best years for carbs.
Howdy Back Son and all:
There should be a number/date code stamped on the base of the '69 carb to further identify it. If it is a '69 1100 it will not be plumbed for a SCV. And it is down on CFM from '67 and earlier 1100s. In either case it is either a mismatch or too small for reasonable performance on a 200.
I like your idea to research and plan before you get too far into it. Please add the head casting code to useful information. It is on the intake log toward to firewall. And, standard or auto trans?
I'm trying to picture a way for your engine to leak that much oil. Are you sure it is a leak? or burning it? How does the exhaust look?
Keep it coming.
Adios, David
There should be a number/date code stamped on the base of the '69 carb to further identify it. If it is a '69 1100 it will not be plumbed for a SCV. And it is down on CFM from '67 and earlier 1100s. In either case it is either a mismatch or too small for reasonable performance on a 200.
I like your idea to research and plan before you get too far into it. Please add the head casting code to useful information. It is on the intake log toward to firewall. And, standard or auto trans?
I'm trying to picture a way for your engine to leak that much oil. Are you sure it is a leak? or burning it? How does the exhaust look?
Keep it coming.
Adios, David
or the oem 'box' that comes with a '77 plus DSII ("DuraSpark 2"). Get a 'blue grommet' model (the strain relief where the wires come out) variant.wsa111":w640l31i said:
"...not able to comment as often as I want…."
no worries, the post will be here '4ever' & we (including U) can all add to the post in our own time - as is convenient…
8)
Howdy Back SeikoSon:
The C6DB is probably a C6DE.That reads "C" = sixties, "6" = year or 1966, "D" refers to Falcon (60 - 69), and the "E" = Engine. Was this the casting on the head/intake log? The block date code is on the side of the block under the exhaust manifold.
When you say the right side are you refering to the passengers side?
When you get time take a close look at the base of the 1100 carb for any stamped markings. If it has any they could be helpful in iding this carb.
In planning be sure to read threads here extensively. Also look into the archive from Classic Inline.
Can you identify more closely where the oil seems to be coming from. Most likely it will be the valve cover gasket and not the head gasket. That's an easy fix.
Are you planning to do a restoration? or a rest-mod rebuild? A well done restorations of '64 1/2 Mustangs are getting pricy. If this will be a driver, safety should be a prime considerations.
Keep it coming.
Adios, David
The C6DB is probably a C6DE.That reads "C" = sixties, "6" = year or 1966, "D" refers to Falcon (60 - 69), and the "E" = Engine. Was this the casting on the head/intake log? The block date code is on the side of the block under the exhaust manifold.
When you say the right side are you refering to the passengers side?
When you get time take a close look at the base of the 1100 carb for any stamped markings. If it has any they could be helpful in iding this carb.
In planning be sure to read threads here extensively. Also look into the archive from Classic Inline.
Can you identify more closely where the oil seems to be coming from. Most likely it will be the valve cover gasket and not the head gasket. That's an easy fix.
Are you planning to do a restoration? or a rest-mod rebuild? A well done restorations of '64 1/2 Mustangs are getting pricy. If this will be a driver, safety should be a prime considerations.
Keep it coming.
Adios, David
The code I gave is the code both on the block and on the intake log. And yes the passenger side is where the oil leak is. I bought a 1100 carburetor for a 66 engine and plan to put it on once im done. As to the oil leak, I did find that a bolt was missing from the valve cover, however it was on the passenger side about 3/4 towards the rear of the engine. And I was finding oil all over the passenger side of the engine bay, but especially so towards the front of the engine near the battery. So I find it unlikely that it was the primary leak, since it seems unlikely that wind would have blown a leak from the rear of the engine so heavily towards the front right. Unfortunately the reason it was missing the bolt was because someone seems to have broken it off and left a botched attempt at extracting it, so i may have to send it out to repair it. I'm about to go back out and take a closer inspection of the head and block, and see if I can find exactly where it was coming from.
As for my intentions with the car, once I have the engine purring and the electrical bugs worked out i intend to use it as a daily driver.
As for my intentions with the car, once I have the engine purring and the electrical bugs worked out i intend to use it as a daily driver.
Hi, fixing the broken bolt with an EZ out or other broken bolt remover is something we all go through. The little cap on the side of your distributor is for lubrication with a squirt can, and is often neglected. The only oil leaks on the right side front are valve cover, timing cover, and crankshaft seal in the timing cover. It is possible you are getting blow by out of the oil fill cap. Good luck
Chad remember you still need a harness to connect the Duraspark Module. Painless wiring sells a harness, but the cost is high.chad":3h450sdj said:
The junk yards are almost bare. That makes the DS11 with a GM Module & the MSD a better deal. Also the Mopar Module is also a good choice.
I am partial to the MSD, harness to connect to the DS11, rev limiter & multiple spark up to 3000 RPMS.
As I said before do you want to spend the $$ for the best or are you limited to an antiquated design???
Well i still cant find where the oil leak is coming from. I really dont think its coming from the valve cover, looking everything over. The valves are pretty gunked up so im probably going to send the head out to a machine shop. And while im at it i think im just going to do the bottom end too. It doesnt quite need it yet, but i might as well do it since everything is apart and im going to have this car for a long time. Plus it would bring peace of mind. Bottom end doesnt seem in too bad of shape but does have some miles on it, cant see any hone marks, there is a fair bit of a ridge, and there is a fair amount of carbon buildup on the pistons. My plan right now is to order everything while the head is out being redone, and hopefully ill have everything ready to assemble on the weekend.
As for the ignition suggestions, i do find them interesting and may eventually look more into it. But im kind of a stickler for originality when possible, and ive never had any real problems with points and condenser setups with the couple of cars ive had with them. So for now ill just stick with the Loadomatic and the new 1100 i bought, see how it does and go from there. Speaking of which, does anybody have any interest in the Holley 1904 i took off? I dont need it so i figure i should sell it
As for the ignition suggestions, i do find them interesting and may eventually look more into it. But im kind of a stickler for originality when possible, and ive never had any real problems with points and condenser setups with the couple of cars ive had with them. So for now ill just stick with the Loadomatic and the new 1100 i bought, see how it does and go from there. Speaking of which, does anybody have any interest in the Holley 1904 i took off? I dont need it so i figure i should sell it
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Hi, get the Falcon Performance Handbook before starting your rebuild. You will get great advice on getting the most out of your Ford 6. You will kick yourself if you start with a machine shop before learning what is in the book. If you are near Long Island, NY I have a 200 short block for sale in great shape which is much less $ than rebuilding a motor. Good luck
Thought i would post a quick update. The cylinder head is off at a machine shop right now being worked on. Unfortunately the broken bolt is actually a broken tap, so hes not sure if he will be able to get it out. In the meantime I'm mainly just waiting, since I figure that there is no point in doing the bottom end if I don't know what's happening with the head. I'm having trouble finding another cylinder head so I might just buy another engine if the price is right. Though hopefully he will be able to get it out and that won't be an issue. Other than that the head also needs valves and valve guides, he said almost all the exhaust valves were burnt to some degree. Hopefully I'll hear something today about whether or not he was able to get the tap out.
How are you doing on the head repairs? 