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Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

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Pashley67
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Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #1 by Pashley67 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:41 am

New fella from SE Alberta, Canada.
Picked up a nice little 1968 Ford Custom Cab out of the neighboring province...Saskatchewan. Some 'down home' guy swapped an engine and auto tranny out of a 1978 Ford / Mercury car into the truck. Put a lot of work into the job, swapped in a power steering box out of...well, I'm not sure?
Image
But upon pulling off the timing cover...little pieces of piston are peeking at me from the oilpan...this is kinda bad.
There is an old '78 Mercury car down the creek a Mile or two, 57,000 kms on the odometer...but bad mouse eaten interior. Put out the word that I would drag it home and give a couple hundred bucks for it...no response.
Oh well, I work at the oldest and largest scrap yard in the surrounding area...we'll have an engine. Well, we do...5 of them.
But here is the twist, they are all 'Ford Industrial' engines in farm equipment...200's all.
Pretty simple engines the Small 6's...they should work. The camshaft will be a sedate grind, I'm guessing. Get it running then worry about putting in a hotter cam are my thoughts.
Image
Questions for helpful members.
The head off of the grenaded 250 seems fine. Shave it and port it for better flow...install it on the 200 for more power? The 250 has a touch bigger valves IIRC, and these engines are somewhat retarded as far as flow...correct?
Port divider too?
What about Carb upgrades? I am handy with a torch, perhaps some brazing on the 250 log manifold for an adapter for a Ford 2V?
I'm a single father on a budget, so I can't afford to order up high $$$ parts and do it the easy way. Got to be handy and ingenious about squeezing power out of it.
But there is a menagerie of turbochargers at work, they are laying around quite regular...too much work?
Thanks for your time.
Pashley

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B RON CO
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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #2 by B RON CO » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:28 pm

Hi,get the Falcon Performance Handbook and learn what the best parts are to get the most out your Ford 6. Also read some old posts to see what the guys are doing. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

1933 Ford Pickup - 59A Flathead V8
1966 Ford Bronco - U14 - 170/200 Straight 6
1966 Ford Mustang - 289 V8

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #3 by CZLN6 » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:22 am

Howdy Pashley:

And Welcome to The Forum. I love your conundrum and your approach.

On the industrial engines you will need to note the casting numbers on the head (top rear of the intake log) and the block (below the exhaust manifold on the side of the block. THe casting code will tell you what you have and what it was originally designed for. Also take a close look at the bell housing.

On the head, all 200 and 250 heads are the same. Some are better than others for performance such as valve size and intake tract volume but a 200 and a 250 from '78 will be the same, for example.

On the carbs a 250 carb will be rated at 210 to 215 cfm depending on year and maker. A 200 carb will be rated at 180 to 185, again depending on year and maker. A good one to look for from a 250 would be a Carter RBS (easy to rebuild and to tune) from early 70s 250 or a Carter YF from a 300 ford six.

You will want to mill the head .025" to make up for CR loss due to todays thicker composite head gaskets. All a good valve job with a back cut on the intakes. Limit porting to cleaning up casting flashings and smoothing the chambers. What will you be using for an exhaust manifold? What is your CR goal?

On the head, I'd be looking for a late 70s or 80s casting for the largest valves, hardened seats, largest intake tract volume and a 1.75" carb hole. On the block, in your case, I'd be looking for a mid to late 60s casting for a little better cam timing (Not as advances as later, so called metric sixes).

Also, while you're looking around, see if you can find a set of adjustable rocker arms from a pre-65 170 or 200. It can be adapted to any later engine to maximize cam timing. Be sure to get the pushrods as well.

The DuraSpark II ignition is a great system. Keep it.

Turbos are for another day.

PS- I love the Model A coach in the back ground. It reminds me of my wasted youth.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #4 by Pashley67 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:07 pm

Thanks for the reply.
As far as what I'm looking for? Well the short version is to get the truck moving, I snapped it up for the nice lines of the truck. But a truck / vehicle that won't move under it's own steam isn't a vehicle IMO, it's a body.
The small six is odd to me, but it's all set up so I'm going to try to roll with it. I know as it sits it'll be underpowered and likely not give good mileage. So little things like shaving the head or going to a header ( likely an impossibility as this engine was never installed in these trucks ) are going to be my 1st choice. I'm not a mechanic, so the more intricate stuff is best left to the serious aficionados.
Oddly enough the truck is a manual unit, but the tranny is an Auto...still has the clutch pedal, lol.
I can likely source the older adjustable rockers pretty handily from the scrap yard, are they required to run a little bigger cam?
And the Tudor Sedan? Thanks, but it's a formidable ( and stalled ) project. 413 SD backed with a 727 Loadflyte and a Dana 41. 3 or 4 " chop.

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #5 by bubba22349 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:58 pm

:hmmm: I think from what your saying about not being a mechanic that maybe a 200 isn't all that good of an option for you! A 200 isn't going to bolt up to your current transmission set up without some addistional "work a rounds". But yes a 200 (or a 200 industrial version) can be made to bolt in but to do so will require you to also find and change to a 200 flex plate, a 200 torque convertor, a 200 bell housing, and also the 200 auto type starter or at least the tail housing to swap onto yours. This is also assuming that you now have a C4 auto trans in your truck (there likely is real good chance it is, but you will need to ID or take a picture of that too).

The better way to go might be to keep looking for another 250 engine or at least a good 250 short block so it would all bolt togeather just as it is now, plus the 250's have much more torque than a 200 which is better in a pickup truck. On the plus side your 1978 250 engine already has one of the best heads (to use on a 200 or 250 six), plus a decent Carter 1V Carb, and the excellent DuraSpark II ignistion system it doesn't get much better in the way of stock small six parts. If your block is not cracked or damaged you could put a set of new or used pistions in it too.

One other option that could also work is to find a 240 or 300 the bigger Ford six engines these would also bolt to your transmission. Both of these bigger Ford six engines would have also been available stock in your 1968 pickup so should be a mostly bolt togeather deal too. Good luck on your truck. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #6 by Pashley67 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:32 pm

Thanks Bubba, that is definitely ' Need to know' info. It's a pity that the fellow up the road with the 'Moused out Merc' wouldn't help my quest.
I'll hang tough for a 250 then.

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #7 by xctasy » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:52 pm

Ask Coupe Boy if you can buy a DXF file for his own home grown Ford 200 to Ford 250/SBF adaptor, and use a slotted 164 teeth F150 C5 flexplate. Then any industrial 200 will fit your C4 250 gearbox.

You got five Industrial 200's in the hand, so do the conversion.

Coupe Boy's 1830 Skid Steer with 200 industrial engine.

/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=73236

Coupe Boy's 250 six/ SBF to small 200adaptor.

I did one a while ago.

You need a crank spacer too.


Image


The SBF starter can foul the block flange in some applications, so you sometimes have to die grind or lay the trans or engine over a few degrees to clear it.

Ron has the talent to help.

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=74669&p=574352&hilit=200+adapter+plate#p574352

CoupeBoy wrote:
bubba22349 wrote:
pinkys68 wrote:Is there a way to put an aod transmission on a 68 200l6


CoupeBoy made an adapter plate to mate the SBF V8 trans pattern to the early 200 small six'es so yes it could be done like that.
That guy really should get back on that.. he needs one more piece.. a spacer the same thickness as the adapter plate, it needs to be machined with tight tolerances to fit the rear of the crank and have the same shape on the backside of it so the torque converter or pilot bearing to seat into.

Adapter with small i6, adapter, SBF plock plates.
Image
a 170, the adapter, a SBF C4 bellhousing.
Image
Image


Then use the Coltan Anderson triple YFA instillation...


xctasy wrote:The linkage defines how you tune the carb.

On the little sixes, they stage the out carbs, and run the primary center carb all the time.

On bigger engines, like the 250, it pays to have each carb on all the time.

Three YFA's are like a mechanical secondary 700 cfm Holley with a 1:1 linkage, missing the forth barrel.


You have to adjust the accelerator pump shot, the squirters, and the base jetting, but as long as you can link the carbs together, a Tri YFA runs real nice.

The typical 300 six set up of YFA Carters is very easy to swap into a small I6. Colton Anderson's youtube 79 F150 is a typically early American example of what can be done on a budget.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOKbQLEv1pA

606 cfm of carburation was never, ever easier than three 1.4375" venturi, 1.6875" stock emissions era Carters.


Image


Image



Lasly, you'll need a hand made replicar version of the Bristol 400 1948 to 1950 air cleaner, which housed three carbs.

Three Tempo carb hats, or three Jeep throttle body 4.0 truck air cleaners welded together will do.


Image


The turbo goes on the brake booster side, and feeds all three carbs at once.

Just like the old 2.3 Carb turbo.
Image
Image
Image

One Holset HX should do the job....12 pound of boost would be a good start. The low compression nature of the 200 lends itself to endless supply of well fueled boost.


US Stock engines were always 85 hp net, so a boost ratio of 1.81 will give an easy 155 hp net, and 280 lb-ft at about 2200 rpm if you do it right.

Our tall deck Aussie engines were used in similar Industrial Applications, with similar 93 to 102 net hp ratings...they were 130 and 155 hp gross rating engines just like yours.

Image

Never, ever turbo a 1-bbl carb engine unless you do the poor mans tripower swap.


Feed it an endless supply of 200's...if its fueled right, it won't blow up. One stock carb feeds 85 hp with the lean three step YF jets.


Use a Duraspark II distributor, lock it back to no more than 25 degrees total with about 16 degrees static timing. Keep the 1940 Holley or Motorcraft Industrial carbs for others.
Last edited by xctasy on Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:41 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #8 by xctasy » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:53 pm

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... 200-inline

xctasy wrote:Don't use the Offy intake,the offy is too tall and too small in porting to work well, so your better off making a low deck welded intake like on rwbrooks50's website

http://s529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/rwbrooks50/1963%20Ranchero/

ImageImage


Have a good arc welded cold weld with Ni99 rods two outer pipes onto the existing head. Use YoUTubes ChuckE2009's cold welding process of cast iron. Get some 3/16"steel plate, and arc weld it like this set up. Arrange the bolts the way shown.

You then plunge drill the two outer holes at 1.6875 with a diamond tipped cemnet core drill, with the head postioned at a 4 degree rake.

Use carter YFA carbs, three of them with a 1:1 linkage. .

Here's a close up of a set for the 300. Use the same linkage with an intermediate shaft, or copy the welded up headTriple YFA set up from MustangSix

Three YFA's are like a mechanical secondary 700 cfm Holley with a 1:1 linkage, missing the forth barrel.


You have to adjust the accelerator pump shot (the small shot ones are from the few different (Smaller) metering needles and jets from the 2.0liter 72 hp version of the 82-85 Ranger YFA), the squirters, and the idle screw base jetting, but as long as you can link the carbs together, a Tri YFA runs real nice.

Follow 1-4 or 4, Mikes Carbs YFA rebuild,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF1rMhCtjME
(they folow on) and

YF identifaction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz3p76vtCyE

The typical 300 six set up of YFA Carters is very easy to swap into a small I6. Colton Anderson's youtube 79 F150 is a typically early American example of what can be done on a budget.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOKbQLEv1pA

606 cfm of carburation was never, ever easier than three 1.4375" venturi, 1.6875" stock emissions era Carters.


http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... 0Pict2.jpg


http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... 0Pict1.jpg



Here is that MustangSix 250 with three YFA triple

Image

Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #9 by xctasy » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:24 pm

Never run a turbo out of fuel. I'm a luddite, I don't like submersible electric fuel pumps, they are a stupid idea, and create in service reliabity problesm becasue fuel isn't ever clean, and none of the parts can last the same 50 years my old AC fuel pumps could.

The best bet , the Rolls Royce mechanical fuel pump for a Ford I6, is the Carter M4891 Super Strip pump for 350 Chevs It's a little X'y regards dollar purchase but it works.

Image


Then you boost refrence it. For sub 9 psi boost, thats about it

Image
https://www.theturboforums.com/images/i ... ine8-1.jpg


Image
https://www.theturboforums.com/attachme ... pg.459271/


For 12 psi and more, people need to see where the Chebby boys have headed.


General sub 9 psi boost level rules are:-

https://www.theturboforums.com/threads/ ... mp.314799/
Dave Emanuel--Super Tuning and Modifying Holley Carburetors:

In blow-through systems using a mechanical fuel pump, the upper chamber must be referenced to boost so that the pump will develop sufficient pressure to deliver fuel to the carb float bowls. A sealed operating rod is also required so boost pressure does not escape into the crankcase.

The area above the pump diaphragm must be sealed off from the crankcase. By connecting this chamber to boost pressure with an external line, the pump will always be supplying fuel at its normal pressure above boost pressure.

.... you can see the modifications necessary to the mechanical fuel pump. Basically a fitting is threaded or epoxied in this case to the atmospheric vent on the side of the pump. I added two in this case to ensure adequate pump operation at high RPM. The other end of the hose is connected to the bonnet, BEFORE THE CARB, this is required. With this modification fuel pressure to the carb is increased 1 psi for each psi of boost to maintain fuel flow into the carb under boost. This can also be done with a high pressure electric fuel pump and a boost referenced regulator. Also seen here are the turbo oil supplys from the oil sending unit location in the engine block.



Long time turbo 200 Ford Sixers

hasa68mustang
&
kirkallen143

are two guys who have found the mechanical pump idea wanting...like everyone who tries to run over 9 pounds finds...they weighed in on the thread above. They towed the Ak Miller Ford party line, that above 9 psi boost is a bad idea with any mechanical pump.

I don't, tt350 chevelle's system really works, For Fords, we don't have the Chevy pocketed fuel pump arrangment. You can use the same scheme if you use a shortened Chevy pushrod, and hold it to the cam with a honed intermediate plate.

Here's tt350 chevelle's decription of his SBC carb turbo with Carter Super Strip fuel pump. It allows the pump to be mounted with the diaphram downwards, although if you want to, you can run the pumps either way.

tt350 chevelle wrote:This mod closes off the the drain area and allows proper boost pressure to be seen at the diaphram, the "leaking" boost from the pump seal has no place to go.This worked as I expected but the fuel pressure would rise at a greater rate than 1:1, it was easy to get 20+ psi of fuel pressure (running about 8psi boost)


The solution to boosting well past the 12 psi level safely is to seal and pressurise the fuel pump with a SB Chevy method.

Run the pump off a shortened Chevy pushrod, and drive the Carter Super Strip pump via the Chev rocker arm.

They have a 1/2" rod 5.75 or 5.95" long, which operates off a 0.337" max lobe lift.

Image

Fords I6 era pumps had Eccentric total lift of 0.290-0.310 inches. Basically, you add an additional steel plate with a 0.505" hole, and seal the fuel pump off, and use tt350 chevelle's presurised chamber method. Splash lubrication works for the times of lower speed, lower pressure.

Image
https://www.theturboforums.com/attachme ... pg.459273/

Image
https://www.theturboforums.com/attachme ... pg.459272/

The SBC pushrod operated pump has an intermediate plate covering a vented to the crankcase pocket.
Image


Inside, the pushrod moves in the cast iron machined bore, with the drain hole below...
Image

All the FE era onwards Ford V8 stuff traditionaly had 2.5" eccentrics, with strokes of 0.581 to 0.700 via a pushrod, so they don't work. Nor does the old 0.200" stroke Flathead Ford system.

I haven't worked with them yet, but the SBC Billet Piston fuel pump is pushrod operated, and it looks like the ideal solution


Image
Last edited by xctasy on Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #10 by Pashley67 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:28 am

Wow...that is a lot of info to ingest 1st thing in the morning :)
The Oilpatch is still somewhat in the crapper here, so the machine work for the adapter / spacer should be easy enough to source locally.
I really like the Tri-power setup! I don't think I'd stage it initially, the KISS principle applies. " A man has to realize his limitations ..."
But it looks like a nice workable step that can also accommodate a turbo at a later point. Usage of common carbs is a bonus as well, common parts re-purposed in an affordable way to inprove induction...cool
Debating whether or not to invest the time in a header, the engine would definitely benefit from the better breathing....but the requirement for custom fitment is problematic in my world.
One step at a time, 1st step will be getting a 200 CI I6 out of a Versatile swather, then the adapter, then the Tri-power plate and welding of it onto the manifold.
There is a 170 CI I6 in a crush pile at work, should the Rockers be checked for adjustable and considered for re-purposing on a 200?
And thank you very much for the help, it is greatly appreciated.

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #11 by xctasy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:03 am

I've swapped over the old adjustable 170 head rocker on

Image

Image

Image

pulled out the old pushrods

Image

for the older adjustables

Image

length differences are like this

Image

End treatments likethis

Image


Then the adjustables hit the baffels in the rocker cover

You'd be advised to stack the gaskets, or make a steel spacer 1/8" thick out of alloy or gas axed 1/8" steel plate, or make divets in the baffels to clear the rocker adjutment nuts.


Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #12 by xctasy » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:15 pm

Pashley67 wrote:Wow...that is a lot of info to ingest 1st thing in the morning :)
.....
Debating whether or not to invest the time in a header, the engine would definitely benefit from the better breathing....but the requirement for custom fitment is problematic in my world....



No header. I'd just use the later 2" or even 4.25" cast iron header with a romatically ar-"ching" tube to the best sized turbo you have. 2001-2002 Holset HY35 should be common in your friends yard. Its the 9cm housing and 7 or 8 blade compressor, able to make 450 hp. Use Ford Ranger or Explorer 90 thou thick mandrel bent pipe to lsh it together. Lincs200 did his that way.

the HY-35 turbocharger used on 2001-2002 Dodge Cummins trucks with an automatic transmission.

A truck with an automatic transmission has to meet soot emissions standards when torque converter slip allows the engine accelerate quickly. This does not usually happen with a manual transmission because for the engine speed to increase, the truck must accelerate - and that takes time. The HY-35 builds boost a little more quickly than the HX-35 does when the engine load is light, so from an emissions standpoint the HY-35 is better suited to stop-and-go driving with an automatic transmission.

FWIW: The HY-35 and HX-35 are functionally equivalent under most engine loads, and the wastegates on both turbos are set for the same boost level. The HY-35 does not breathe as well as the HX-35 at higher speeds under a heavy load. The choke point of the HX35 is around 35psi; the HY35 chokes at about 29psi.



Its flanged and big as heck, but if you remote mount it, it'll be easy.

I'd place the turbo way the heck the other side of the engine. Even if you have to put a tube through the sump....

Image

here's how they mount in somthing like my RB25

Image

Here is a blue low mount starter engine with a custom sump that allows a 2.3 carb turbo crossover pipe

Image
Image


If boost is your goal, then its all very easy if you follow

Derangedfords90,

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75863

FirstFox,
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=72509&p=557417#p557417
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=66675&p=552254#p552254

and Lincs200
/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24859


Only don't EVER turbo a 1 jug Ford 200 six....



But others do stuff they way that suits 'em

Linc's 200 wrote:Let's see how these come out - - - - -

J -pipe

Image

housing mounted

Image

Image

Image

Test run for leaks

Image


Between post #4 by Linc's 200 » Fri May 27, 2005 and by Post #136 by Linc's 200 » Mon Aug 15, 2005, he'd blown its azz up by lean detonation.


Linc's 200 wrote:LOOK MOM, NO DAMAGE ?!?

Took it all apart, aside from oil EVERYWHERE (last run was pretty smoky) I don't see any carnage!! I am kind of relieved and disappointed at the same time... :wink:

There are little "pock" marks on piston #6. I labeled the photo "detonation damage" as that is all I can really relate it to. No burns or melted stuff, just all these little marks like someone got in there with a center punch!!

Image

Here are 6 and 5

......
Really, it looks like I could clean it all up, add a new head gasket and go racing again!!

I can't really see anything wrong.....the stock steel shim gasket is fine (no swapping spit between cylinders) and the oil seems to be getting into the cylinders through the pushrod area?? (??!!???)

I am going to pull the engine, clean everything up, machine parts as necessary, port the head a little, and put it all back together again.!


Linc's 200 wrote:
Funky Cricket wrote:yah. get back to the track already and give us some times. :wink:



Got it together (THNX to the help from friend Joe Fuqua) and ran Saturday night with alcohol injection, I had too much timing but still pulled off a 14.25 @ 98 MPH!!!!!!!! (2.40 second 60' time)

I was trying to dial in the combo when the 100 psi Shur-Flo pump popped a line.....more to come later..... Trying to run big numbers on pump gas with alcohol injection




He never did fully rebuild that 124 thousand mile engine, although maybee he could have with his planned 2bbl and forged pistons.... 60 to 70 hour work weeks, trips to Siberia, and work as an areonautical technician, then a theater tech... and his ultra busy life got in the way, so he sold up his Mustang, planned forged pistons, 2150 Motorcraft and special intake plans were shelved, and continued on with other pursuits. Guns and a lovely lass....Somehow, I'll bet he finds guns tame by comparsion....
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #13 by CoupeBoy » Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:52 am

I really want to get back to that i6/SBF adapter.
I think it would be much better as a CNC machined part.

Look at your chunk of material.
Image

Now if I were to get a 1/2" thick piece of aluminum and offset recess the i6 and SBF patterns, I should be able to remove the need for the crank spacer completely.
Image


I think an intermediate step is going to be (2) 1/4" plates.
(1) with the i6 bell pattern with extra material for the outer perimeter, 1/2-3/4"
And the other with the v8 pattern that also has a perimeter on the inside of it, again 1/2-3/4"

ideally I'd have some alignment holes or marks built in to reduce alignment issues.
And weld them together.

My only concern is that the v8 flywheel/flexplate may have interference with the i6 adapter plate.

Back to the original topic..

Do any of those industrial small sixes have working carbs?

The industrial carbs don't have accelerator pumps and the 1904 that I am using on my skidsteer isn't working properly and I'd like to get acquire a spare.

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #14 by xctasy » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:45 am

No, according to Michael Mayben, the Post Apocalyptic IHI Guru

https://vimeo.com/8149690
the vast majority of little snow blowers, offroad snow travel vehicles used the 1940 Holley supplied by Autolite, and there are just generic differences with that carb.

Holley 1940 ,Part Number R 6123 Autolite PN D0JJ-F Rekit 3071.Its a small bore, small throttle carb, not the big one.



Stationary engines, often 170, no pump. Often Holley 1904 or 1908 often with CENTRI-VAC Governor # List 2806 S, or the other G kind without the non plunger non rubber piston seal in the accelerator plunger.
http://forums.ihpartsamerica.com/showthread.php?t=6056

i have a similar carb, this one off a versatile 400 swather (ford inline 6 200cid). it also lacks an accel plunger and has a similar screw that bears against a small button in the accel valve diaphragm (as in your photo), and a spring that bears on the same side of the diaphragm. the parts look original. i assume that this is a vacuum activated accel pump. when vacuum below the throttle plate is high (at idle) the diaphragm is drawn toward the screw, against spring pressure. when the vacuum drops (throttle opens) the spring pressure overcomes the vacuum and the accel pump delivers additional fuel. the screw located in the bore where an accel pump shaft would be seems to control the volume of fuel that the accel pump can deliver. this is a governed engine so acceleration from idle is infrequent but loads may change frequently so an accel pump linkage with the throttle shaft may be undesirable.

i haven't been able to find a rebuild kit with a short shaft on the accel pump diaphragm so i'm considering a similar mod to the one in your photos, i.e. cut the accel pump diaphragm shaft short. just posting to let you know that the accel pump arrangement on your carb may be original as mine apears to be.

best,

rod.


there are three different length accelerator pumps used in this carburetor series. that also entails three different pump actuators and between three and five different accel pump actuator levers. then we have two positions for mounting the actuator pivot on many list numbers.

these carburetors are far from being "all the same" for a unit that was in production for more than thirty years. the "g" versions (governor) are even more demanding regarding correct components. and some of the ford industrial engines used a governed 1904 and some used a regular 1904 with a different form of governing system.


there are three different length accelerator pump elements,
three different pump actuator cams, and
two different length plungers used on these carbs.

all parts must match or it's impossible to get a correct pump shot.



Image

Image

other 1940's, pump.

The breakout codes for 1940's with pumps are the 26 historic Part Number listings of the Holley 1940

Be aware that there are 26 historic Part Number listings of the Holley 1940.Some are generic, non Ford Std parts, others are full Autolite/Motorcraft listings with a Ford basic part number (BPN) with a letter suffix, and with that tag, you can find with 100% certainty that are carb is a big or little item.

I'll bet the 212 CFM ratings with the 1.352" venturi on 250, 240, 300 and older I block 223 and 262's won't be the same as the generic 144/170/200 item.

It is a big 223/262/240/250 or 300 carb if its PN coded:
R 4454-AAS
R 4468 AAS
R 4509 AAS
R 4520 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix A
R 4522 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix C
R 4523 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix D
R 4524 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix E
R 4525 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix F
R 4526 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix G
R 4527 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix H
R 4528 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix J
R 4536 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix Y (an early 223 replacement)
R 4537 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix Z (an early 262 replacement)
R 4692 AAA
R 4696 AAA

It's the little 144/170/200 stand in item if its PN coded as one of the following:-

R 4529 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix K
R 4530 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix L
R 4531 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix M
R 4532 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix N
R 4533 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix R
R 4535 AAS, additional BPN plate suffix T
R 4693 AAA
R 4694 AAA
R 4695 AAA
R 4697 AAA
R 4701 AAA


The listings for doubting Tom Co's, um Thomas'

3 listings http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Carbs/Holley/MasterList/index30.html
16 listings http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Carbs/Holley/MasterList/index31.html
7 lisings http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Carbs/Holley/MasterList/index32.html
Last edited by xctasy on Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #15 by xctasy » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:13 am

Versatile 400 swather's or standby water pump's or wood chippers with 170 or 200 Ford's all used the repostioned 1904 Holley 1-bbl.

That was the one with plunger missing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu8zVXRQZT4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8c7VINO-pk


They all leak, so you have to use the propane/butane method of idle setting.

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... le.703586/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFwpmNjEV-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmthYvGzYXg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yq35sIM1CE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw_NQ9CNU0c


Great thing is you can spend 169 bucks, and have a substandard rebuild like everyone else.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Holley-1bb ... 2584990355

Or 524, and have an Edsel 223 I6 spec rocket....

or
Spend the $40.00 and rebuild it. This is one of the easiest carbs next to a lawn mower to rebuild.


Often the problem with older single and 2B carbs is the throttle plate shaft wears the bushing holes in the carb body until an air leak develops. Unfortunately most rebuilders don't check the cores for this wear, and checking it yourself is difficult. The older and/or more popular the carb the more likely the risk of getting a freshly rebuilt leaker is.



Image


Ron also has the 2.3 turbo carb style mount pipe worked out.

It was just supposed to be a skid steer 170 conversion, but it automatically works as a turbo pipe, and removes 99% of the hassles that Ford six turbos have.

http://www.skidsteerforum.com/DesktopDe ... stID=86222
Image
Image
Image
Image





It amazes me that in the first six months of I6 144/170 production, they had triple carbs, fuel injection, and triple carb supercharged strokers made, and we can't put a J tube and three carbs on a Industrial 200.

Over thinkin it!

Image
Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTz93Y-qeq0
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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xctasy
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Posts: 6925
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Re: Small 6 swapping and mixing parts conundrum.

Post #16 by xctasy » Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:30 am

extra shots showing how easy it is to relocate a turbo to the drivers side.

first the exhaust header to turbo pipe

Image

Image

Image

Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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