200 65 Mustang

Econoline":1mow3jur said:
+1, you'll know everything you need to know after you do a leak down or do what B RON CO says. It may be a valve or lifter/valvetrain issue.

The #6 cylinder seems to be the most susceptible to lean burn and detonation damage from too much timing or heat. I wouldn't be surprised if a ring land is broken or damaged.

Well, unfortunately, it's my understanding that the engine hasn't been run since the rebuild the owner before last did. Which means if it's a problem with the rings, it's probably an actual broken ring, which means hoping it didn't score the hell out of the bore, or get stuck in any of the bearings.

Econoline":1mow3jur said:
Or swap to a V8, once you go down the path of the lowly straight 6 you can get hooked. Turn back while you still can! ;)

Unfortunately, that's the likely scenario if the motor needs pulled and rebuilt. The car would have already gotten an upgraded rear end, and then new 5 lug hubs in front to match, so dropping a V8 in isn't going to be that much extra work when it comes to it. It's probably also likely to be a similar price, which really doesn't leave much downside to doing it in my mind.

I'll check out the valves and wet test it before I write off the motor, but I'm not hopeful, a mechanical timing issue with the cam should result in low readings in at least one other cylinder, and any pushrod/rocker/valve issue should result in a reading of closer to 0.

The problem here is that getting it to run if it has low compression is great for moving it around as needed, but I'll never actually be ok with it. It's just ignoring an obvious issue. I've wanted this project for a long time, and got rid of my MK3 Supra Turbo in order to make room for it, so I'm not going to cut corners and half ass the project. If I drive it around, it's going to be because it's ready to be driven around, not because I'm willing to ignore an obviously sick motor.
 
may depend on the "sickness"?
Also
ur interest in application (end goal)?
 
Is there an adjustable rocker set on this engine? It could be the original owner either set the timing 'by ear' and burnt something or he over adjusted some rockers and has one hanging open or even bent. I take proclamations of "rebuilt" with a grain of salt. Who knows what was done, by who and how. Could be a "Tijuana tune up" for all we know.
 
same w/carbs - right outta the corporate 'rebuilder' (just sales, really).
 
You know, it's possible the rings haven't fully seated as well if it truly is just rebuilt...

Those compression #'s won't keep it from starting and running. Get it started and drive it like you stole it
 
ob1murry":1rkc9fe1 said:
Econoline":1rkc9fe1 said:
+1, you'll know everything you need to know after you do a leak down or do what B RON CO says. It may be a valve or lifter/valvetrain issue.

The #6 cylinder seems to be the most susceptible to lean burn and detonation damage from too much timing or heat. I wouldn't be surprised if a ring land is broken or damaged.

Well, unfortunately, it's my understanding that the engine hasn't been run since the rebuild the owner before last did. Which means if it's a problem with the rings, it's probably an actual broken ring, which means hoping it didn't score the heck out of the bore, or get stuck in any of the bearings.

Econoline":1rkc9fe1 said:
Or swap to a V8, once you go down the path of the lowly straight 6 you can get hooked. Turn back while you still can! ;)

Unfortunately, that's the likely scenario if the motor needs pulled and rebuilt. The car would have already gotten an upgraded rear end, and then new 5 lug hubs in front to match, so dropping a V8 in isn't going to be that much extra work when it comes to it. It's probably also likely to be a similar price, which really doesn't leave much downside to doing it in my mind.

I'll check out the valves and wet test it before I write off the motor, but I'm not hopeful, a mechanical timing issue with the cam should result in low readings in at least one other cylinder, and any pushrod/rocker/valve issue should result in a reading of closer to 0.

The problem here is that getting it to run if it has low compression is great for moving it around as needed, but I'll never actually be ok with it. It's just ignoring an obvious issue. I've wanted this project for a long time, and got rid of my MK3 Supra Turbo in order to make room for it, so I'm not going to cut corners and half ass the project. If I drive it around, it's going to be because it's ready to be driven around, not because I'm willing to ignore an obviously sick motor.

The compression numbers you have are more indicative of a valve seal problem (top end) than the rings! If you have adjustable rockers it maybe as simple as a rocker arm or two on # 6 that needs readjustment, or with non adjustable rockers it might be that a push Rod is too long. Pulling the valve cover and rocker arms (keep the push rods in order and check the lenght of them against each other) also put a straight edge across the tops of the valves to check for any differance in the valve heights especially on those of # 6's valves compared to the rest. With non adjustable rockers it is important that valve stem tops all match closely in height sadly many machine shops don't take the time to check that this is done correctly. All of these above checks are fast to do and very low cost at only the price of a valve cover gasket and maybe a couple different lenght push rods.

Lastly it could also be a valve or valves in #6 chamber that haven't sealed due to a poor valve job you could hand lap those two to get a good seal. This would be fairly easy & fast too check or repair, cost wise would also only be a little more (for a valve grind gasket set or just the head gasket) to pull the head yet it would still be quite reasonable to be able to fix your engine right. It would also allow you to see the condistion of the cylinder walls on #6 Ie to be able to verify if there is any damage from a ring problem. In my experience and in my OPIN when I see a compression test result like this then it usally a valve seal (top end) problem. Though it's possible it can be a ring it isn't too likely if the engine was rebuilt and the compression numbers on all the other cylinders seem to verify a recent rebuild. Good luck on your repairs. :nod: Edited
 
chad":13wq2pbs said:
may depend on the "sickness"?
Also
ur interest in application (end goal)?

Agreed. As I said though, in the problem winds up being the bottom end, I'll almost assuredly just go for a V8 swap. It just makes better sense.

As for goals, it's hard to say. I've built cars in the past that I always just wanted to be "fast enough" and it never ends there. My first DSM was supposed to "just run good", but is now a low 12 second car even with a junk trans and slipping clutch, and is being replaced by the Galant VR4 currently next to the Mustang in the garage, with a built stroker that I'm hoping to hit 500-600hp on.

Just making the point that plans change, so it's tough to say. Ultimately, I can say that I want the Mustang to be a cruiser with enough power to have fun, but not so much that it's a handful to drive.

Econoline":13wq2pbs said:
Is there an adjustable rocker set on this engine? It could be the original owner either set the timing 'by ear' and burnt something or he over adjusted some rockers and has one hanging open or even bent. I take proclamations of "rebuilt" with a grain of salt. Who knows what was done, by who and how. Could be a "Tijuana tune up" for all we know.

It's possible, but again, I would expect an engine with a bent/open valve to produce much less than 70 psi. Perhaps I will pull out my leakdown tester and see.

As for "rebuilt", based on what the guy I bought it from relayed to me, it was a reuse of rods and pistons, new bearings and rings, and a rehone. No idea what the tolerances were or anything like that. If this was a motor someone had just "didn't run", I'd be much more inclined to believe it wasn't anything requiring a shortblock rebuilt. However, my experiences with parts that someone else "rebuilt" are not very good.

Econoline":13wq2pbs said:
You know, it's possible the rings haven't fully seated as well if it truly is just rebuilt...

Those compression #'s won't keep it from starting and running. Get it started and drive it like you stole it

I Agree, that compression isn't so low that it would cause a no start, it's just clearly an issue, and one I'm not comfortable just forgetting about. I mean, I guess if it winds up needing torn out anyway, for a rebuild or a swap or whatever else, then there isn't any harm in beating on it for some fun for a while though.

bubba22349":13wq2pbs said:
The compression numbers you have are more indicative of a valve seal problem (top end) than the rings! If you have adjustable rockers it maybe as simple as a rocker arm or two on # 6 that needs readjustment, or with non adjustable rockers it might be that a push Rod is too long. Pulling the valve cover and rocker arms (keep the push rods in order and check the lenght of them against each other) also put a straight edge across the tops of the valves to check for any differance in the valve heights especially on those of # 6's valves compared to the rest. With non adjustable rockers it is important that valve stem tops all match closely in height sadly many machine shops don't take the time to check that this is done correctly. All of these above checks are fast to do and very low cost at only the price of a valve cover gasket and maybe a couple different lenght push rods.

You think so? Like I said before, I would have thought that a valve that wont close would produce compression numbers alot lower than 70.

I assume there is a specified range for clearance between the pushrod and rocker arm? Can anyone provide it for verification?

bubba22349":13wq2pbs said:
Lastly it could also be a valve or valves in #6 chamber that haven't sealed due to a poor valve job you could hand lap those two to get a good seal. This would be fairly easy & fast too check or repair, cost wise would also only be a little more (for a valve grind gasket set or just the head gasket) to pull the head yet it would still be quite reasonable to be able to fix your engine right. It would also allow you to see the condistion of the cylinder walls on #6 Ie to be able to verify if there is any damage from a ring problem. In my experience and in my OPIN when I see a compression test result like this then it usally a valve seal (top end) problem. Though it's possible it can be a ring it isn't too likely if the engine was rebuilt and the compression numbers on all the other cylinders seem to verify a recent rebuild. Good luck on your repairs. :nod: Edited

I suppose that if nothing else fixes it, I have nothing to lose by popping the head off and having a look.
 
Bubba's advice is spot on as usual. For sure check the valve clearance if it has adjustable rockers before you beat on it.

Yeah, I mean to run it hard to break it in. You know you won't kill it unless you really try or in fact the ring lands are blown or a lobe is wiped and eating the bearings, that's the beauty of these engines. And then who cares anyway? But no sense in hammering a valve that just needs a tweek right. You could be sitting on a nice build that will run for decades, I'm sure you're aware. If it wasn't over bored it was shade tree, but who's to say what you've got.

It'll be interesting to see what you find on a wet compression test or a leak down. Or after you pull the valve cover and check the rockers.

ob1murry":1e6364vz said:
As for "rebuilt", based on what the guy I bought it from relayed to me, it was a reuse of rods and pistons, new bearings and rings, and a rehone. No idea what the tolerances were or anything like that. If this was a motor someone had just "didn't run", I'd be much more inclined to believe it wasn't anything requiring a shortblock rebuilt. However, my experiences with parts that someone else "rebuilt" are not very good.

I hear that

ob1murry":1e6364vz said:
Econoline":1e6364vz said:
Is there an adjustable rocker set on this engine? It could be the original owner either set the timing 'by ear' and burnt something or he over adjusted some rockers and has one hanging open or even bent.

It's possible, but again, I would expect an engine with a bent/open valve to produce much less than 70 psi. Perhaps I will pull out my leakdown tester and see.

I'd expect the same with blown rings on 1 cylinder, esp on a rebuild.
 
ob1murry":25h2f3w0 said:
chad":25h2f3w0 said:
may depend on the "sickness"?
Also
ur interest in application (end goal)?

Agreed. As I said though, in the problem winds up being the bottom end, I'll almost assuredly just go for a V8 swap. It just makes better sense.

As for goals, it's hard to say. I've built cars in the past that I always just wanted to be "fast enough" and it never ends there. My first DSM was supposed to "just run good", but is now a low 12 second car even with a junk trans and slipping clutch, and is being replaced by the Galant VR4 currently next to the Mustang in the garage, with a built stroker that I'm hoping to hit 500-600hp on.

Just making the point that plans change, so it's tough to say. Ultimately, I can say that I want the Mustang to be a cruiser with enough power to have fun, but not so much that it's a handful to drive.

Econoline":25h2f3w0 said:
Is there an adjustable rocker set on this engine? It could be the original owner either set the timing 'by ear' and burnt something or he over adjusted some rockers and has one hanging open or even bent. I take proclamations of "rebuilt" with a grain of salt. Who knows what was done, by who and how. Could be a "Tijuana tune up" for all we know.

It's possible, but again, I would expect an engine with a bent/open valve to produce much less than 70 psi. Perhaps I will pull out my leakdown tester and see.

As for "rebuilt", based on what the guy I bought it from relayed to me, it was a reuse of rods and pistons, new bearings and rings, and a rehone. No idea what the tolerances were or anything like that. If this was a motor someone had just "didn't run", I'd be much more inclined to believe it wasn't anything requiring a shortblock rebuilt. However, my experiences with parts that someone else "rebuilt" are not very good.

Econoline":25h2f3w0 said:
You know, it's possible the rings haven't fully seated as well if it truly is just rebuilt...

Those compression #'s won't keep it from starting and running. Get it started and drive it like you stole it

I Agree, that compression isn't so low that it would cause a no start, it's just clearly an issue, and one I'm not comfortable just forgetting about. I mean, I guess if it winds up needing torn out anyway, for a rebuild or a swap or whatever else, then there isn't any harm in beating on it for some fun for a while though.

bubba22349":25h2f3w0 said:
The compression numbers you have are more indicative of a valve seal problem (top end) than the rings! If you have adjustable rockers it maybe as simple as a rocker arm or two on # 6 that needs readjustment, or with non adjustable rockers it might be that a push Rod is too long. Pulling the valve cover and rocker arms (keep the push rods in order and check the lenght of them against each other) also put a straight edge across the tops of the valves to check for any differance in the valve heights especially on those of # 6's valves compared to the rest. With non adjustable rockers it is important that valve stem tops all match closely in height sadly many machine shops don't take the time to check that this is done correctly. All of these above checks are fast to do and very low cost at only the price of a valve cover gasket and maybe a couple different lenght push rods.

You think so? Like I said before, I would have thought that a valve that wont close would produce compression numbers alot lower than 70.

I assume there is a specified range for clearance between the pushrod and rocker arm? Can anyone provide it for verification?

"Yes I do think so and I have seen it often. :unsure: Yes and no the compression numbers it produces all depends on the amount it is open. The specified range of clearance between the pushrod and rocker arm is "Zero" for all Ford 200 six'es (as they all were originally built with hydraulic lifter cams) so unless someone installed a solid lifter cam in the past and then they would also need to have had the early adjustable set of rocker arms installed too pulling the valve will clue you in on that real fast. Hydraulic lifters have a working range of about .120 to .150 of an inch so therefore if some valve stem tips are sticking up significantly higher than the rest of them then with the non adjustable rocker arms it's easy for valve not be fully seated yet still have a partial seal. When set up and installed properly the lifter is compressed half that lifter working distance or about .060. The valve is also suppose to have about 80 pounds of valve spring seat presure to provide a good seal too."

bubba22349":25h2f3w0 said:
Lastly it could also be a valve or valves in #6 chamber that haven't sealed due to a poor valve job you could hand lap those two to get a good seal. This would be fairly easy & fast too check or repair, cost wise would also only be a little more (for a valve grind gasket set or just the head gasket) to pull the head yet it would still be quite reasonable to be able to fix your engine right. It would also allow you to see the condistion of the cylinder walls on #6 Ie to be able to verify if there is any damage from a ring problem. In my experience and in my OPIN when I see a compression test result like this then it usally a valve seal (top end) problem. Though it's possible it can be a ring it isn't too likely if the engine was rebuilt and the compression numbers on all the other cylinders seem to verify a recent rebuild. Good luck on your repairs. :nod: Edited

"
Ob1murry":25h2f3w0 said:
I suppose that if nothing else fixes it, I have nothing to lose by popping the head off and having a look.

Yes that for sure and it wouldn't take you very much time to find out. However after pulling the valve cover and checking out some of easy top end items first before you think about pulling the head and its disassembly. X3 then you might just as well try starting it even with that low of compression on # 6 it should be able to run fairly well. And with it running (y) that could also shed some more light on the engines over all condistion as well as giving the rings a chance to seal even better with some run time.

One other thing I have found on pulling apart numerous engines is that in measuring the cylinder wall / ring wear is usally somewhat higher on the front cylinders. Your compression numbers look real good on number 1. Good luck and I hope you don't give up on the little six just yet. :nod:
 
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