DIS help

blmhawkeye

Well-known member
I've been looking through the forum :banghead: trying to find the posting about a user that got his ignition system that he put together using a v6 ranger ignition block with a custom crank sensor he put for his harmonic balancer.

If anyone happens to have it bookmarked it would be greatly appreciated if you could post it here. Gonna still keep looking myself.

Thanks :beer:
 
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=72285&p=564967#p564967

thesameguy":1v6i4sbn said:
The size of the DUI distributor was a huge driver in me going to EDIS. I saw a couple cars at a show with those things and I did not like the big ol' dizzy hanging off the little six. ;) Crazy that a big six tower coil pack hanging off the side is more discrete, but it sure seems like it to my eyes. ;)

So, does it start now? :)
 
He decided to do it after a whole lotta ingition idle problems.

Here's the 61 post article, started #1 by thesameguy » Tue Mar 27, 2012.

viewtopic.php?f=98&t=67718&p=563638#p563638

thesameguy":1629o5es said:
#16 by thesameguy » Wed Nov 07, 2012
Took a while to get my bracket made, but it's done.

falconcoilbracketinstalled.jpg



Threw it on a spare motor to see what it looks like - going to paint it to prevent rust this weekend.

I'm currently buried fixing up a friend's PT Cruiser, but I'm going to order the controller in a week or two... the last piece of this puzzle!

The Megajolt or the Megqsquirt Version 3 has a "stim" or shield which operates the EDIS 6

Like this

assembled_board_v1_0_small_zpsibxh8fvg-jpg.533339



Mike1157 used the same Megajolt system, but its integrated to the EFI computer.

Both guys found the DIY wiring quirky because its built around and existing manual which is more V8 or V6 arrayed, not really for in line sixes.

#23 by thesameguy » Wed Jan 16, 2013 covers the same issues Mike1157 did.


The VR sesnor, TSG and Mike1157 got em to fly pretty good with stock V6 Essex 90 or Vulcan 60 degree parts.

78febd86-77f7-4800-92a2-f2c349b34abd_zpspyrvchhu-jpg.532936




Where you hide the EDIS6, its up to you

a9657467-c360-4d83-99a7-454eba04bee4_zpsdtomykxe-jpg.532719




viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65507&start=150

Post #178 by thesameguy » Mon Jun 25, 2012
thesameguy":1629o5es said:
The accelerator pump is working, and working pretty well. The rebuild instructions came with specs for all those adjustments, and they're dialed in. On the road, the car is great although it seems pretty apparent what a lack of SCV + lack of centrifugal advance does for ignition timing... nothing good! :) I am betting that's why the car is running a little warmer than it used to - it must be requiring a lot of throttle get the same amount of power at speed.

It *seems* the issue might be idle mixture coupled with the timing dumping at tip-in. I've been bumping up the mixture in 1/4 turn increments, and am probably right about 2.5 turns out right now. The stumble is much, much better. Now it's driving like my old Trans Am - just a slight lack power at tip-in followed by good response. I think one more 1/4 turn will probably dial that out. I think I am using fuel to cover up for a dead spot in ignition timing - ie making it worse but it feels much better. :D

I went by the junkyard on Saturday and grabbed a pile of coil pack brackets from various Ford vehicles. I think I have the whole collection now - 3.8l V6 (Fox body), 3.0 V6 (Taurus), and 4.0 V6 (Explorer). I guess the early DOHC V6s had the coil pack mounted to the rear valve cover, so I feel deprived. Anyway, I'm hoping one of these can be reasonably modified to mount on the I6 somewhere. Then all I will need is a Megajolt controller and I can kiss the entire distributor goodbye!


viewtopic.php?f=51&t=70909&p=543779#p543779
mike1157":1629o5es said:
I plan to start building my ECU in a week or so, but wanted to gather this info before I get to the part of the build where I have to answer config questions w/o knowing the answer.

I'm building a mod-logged 200 MPFI just as a guinea pig to get the fuel, and spark maps correct before I convert it over to turbo, & upgrade to my other engine (250).
I plan to use Ford edis and modify the stock distributor to just drive the oil pump.
I am unsure about what edis to get for an inline 6.....(I just don't know that much about my options here).
I also want to know if anybody has a base start up map for stock config, using small injectors that they might be able to share.

Thanks.

thesameguy":1629o5es said:
You might check my thread on the subject -

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67718

and the ignition map I started with:

viewtopic.php?p=533410#p533410
 
As always your on top of things. Thank you very much

Hopping maybe this will be the answer for me having a TBI efi setup with the computer controlled spark since it doesn't appear to be feasible with a DUI ignition
 
The problem is that the DUI and the Duraspark systems all use a magnetic pickup to fire off and efi computer have issues detecting it to run because of all the RF interference the systems produce. Otherwise I'd just cut and wire up the DUI 4 wires and lock it out to use
 
Electronics are about casting your net wide so you don't end up stuck on a mircro managed study of a pannel screw. Ford's DIS all about not being too smart to hang yourself.

It is the natural progression from EECIII, the brown box, locked Duraspark system, and TFI, the Gray box didital system. Thats why Durasparks had three generations, I, II, and III.

Radio Frequency interferrance screwed over many engines.

Originally Posted by Henry Ford
Look at all the dummies I got here.....

Before the Model A launch, stuck with a bunch of faulty ignition parts....

An all roads go to Rome grounding matter, I'll bet. Or inductance.

This is why others build Megasquirts and EMS 'Stinger' Controll ECU's in race cars.

EECIV is upset by low voltage matters, but because its upset by them, you can find the problem.


I've seen Pinout 30 pull ground in EECIV in this video....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LkxGx5WJzA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAfoe5ncm9M
[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LkxGx5WJzA[/bbvideo]

Fords smartest guys just did a full case ground check. Que 42 to 52 minute mark...its an eye popper!


This is Power Spectural Density, and Bob Stelmasak said it best

"We'd discussed about measuring the high and low points on the voltage changes to avoid this problem.....We can do that..."7.17 to 7.45min

I've seen a host of "other" problems with those too. EECIV is best darn system for the money for its time anywhere, but small voltage changes take it offline real easy..


Sucess! They found rouge signals at 5 to 7.45 minutes...they had a plan....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RCdRKkt4ds
[bbvideo=560,315]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RCdRKkt4ds[/bbvideo]

....

Even before EEC-III was released into the wild, Ford was already developing EEC-IV to meet the new Onboard Diagnostic (OBD) rules coming down the road.

EEC-IV is the most prolific of Ford’s engine computers. In one variety or another, it was found on every Ford vehicle starting in 1984. It would not be phased out of Ford’s inventory until the late 1990s. Using an Intel 8061 processor with a memory chip that could store 1 kb of ROM and 128 kb of RAM (late 2 8 kb ROM and 128 kb RAM chips were used), the EEC-IV could control nearly every aspect of the engine. In 1986, Ford introduced sequential fuel injection which would allow precise metering of fuel to each cylinder. The EEC-IV could do that. OBD-I was required, and the EEC-IV could do that. Also, thanks to a long run and some computer savvy gearheads, the EEC-IV was cracked and many homebrew systems designed to allow people to upload their own calibration to the EEC-IV. The EEC-IV was even used on Formula 1 cars, one of the earliest digital control systems for F1.

TFI down graded the traditional DS1, 11 AND 111 reluctor to a low RF trigger, and then added a PIP and SPOUT system to condition the square wave form needed to run a pure digital system.




Although all the other on line experts rabbit on about how a Crank Position sensors is for port injection and sequential injection, that's note true. Only Ford would use a Crank postion sensor to allow a Throttle Body Injection or even just an electronic feedback 2-bbl 2150 Motor Craft or Variable Venturi 2700 or 7200 2-bbl Carb to operate.

Inductance is everything Ford engineers dealt with during the EEC prgram, from EECI, right on up to EECV.

PSD "Power Spectural Density" is about finding the pulses that can be picked up by the kind of pickup your using.

Like this

psd_001-jpg.591707


I'm lucky because I've had the best helpers in the world.

To see this stuff Mike1157 and thesameguy unfolded is a thing of true beauty, people.


Electronics pass a low pass fliter so a 100% reliable square wave form can be made from any source, then that gets baged into the Spark Timing Algorihm.

All Ford senosors are analogue, witha filter pass to make a digital signal. In the Kncok sensors, all used with the old G code 351 Windsor "Pnather" LTD's and Crown Victorias, you have to find the start of the peak, and the end of the peak, and then count the pulses. So any RF is eleimanted, its easier just to use an external circuit from another sensor if you can't get pasts other interferance.


ks_calibration_006-jpg.591581


ks_calibration_007-jpg.591582




As Paul Simon said once about his music. Start small, then go BIG.

"A man walks down the street
He says why am I short of attention
Got a short little span of attention
And wo my nights are so long"



Ford went through all that with the Duraspark III from 1980 to 1985 in the Lincoln and later Thunderbird/Cougar XR 7 California models. The 84-85 CA cars were still EECIII

The 100% foolproof way is to just add the 1980-1985 EEC III crank sensor, as used on the 49 States 1980-1983 Fuel injected 5.0's, the Califonia EECIII 1984-1985 Fox 5.0's

The Variable Reluctor crank sensor found on all Windsor 5.0's and all Varaible Venturi 5.8 and 6.6 liter 351m/400 engines with the Durasaprk III.

Yep, even the 335 Series Cleveland based engine in the Bull Nose Bronco 4WD's with the 5.8 351M or 400 had the crank sensor.



esqford5812.jpg





I've linked the pure TBi GM EST module details many times in the Mega Squirt forum here.

Full info.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... istributor
 
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76333
xctasy":33n95ghl said:
Econoline":33n95ghl said:
I'm starting to settle on the idea of converting to fuel injection with the spare head I have. I just discovered that fuel injection guru and owner of Hamilton Fuel Injection is 20 minutes down the road. I'd been toying with the idea of using two 1 bbl cfi units and I came across a posting where he built a system for an inline chevy using 2 gm 1v tbi's. I don't really want to be an expert in fuel injection or design my system so I think I'm going to get a hold of him. But in the mean time, one thing I'm pondering and questioning is whether it is better to use a 2v TBI vs 2 1v's with our log head. My thinking is that with 2 1'v you have some injection closer to the ends but the other half of the charge is further away. The center cylinders would still be in the sweet spot. Where would they best be mounted on the log, on either end? Or is it best just to go 2v and call it good enough?

Another thing I don't understand is electronic spark timing. I see all these trigger wheel setups and stuff but are they needed with TBI or only MPI? Can you use the DSII distributor with the vac advance removed, mech locked down, and an 8 pin HEI module to do EST with a GM ECM?



See this.

http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_li ... swap.shtml

Full list of wiring a 2.8 TBi system to a 2bbl 2.8 Ford Ranger 114 hp V6, basically the ages old 2.6/2.8 Carb Capri. Mustang II/ Fox 2.8 and Bronco II/Areostar engine.

Shows you how to did it without software mods.


The wiring...

2_8TB-1.JPG


Shows you how to lock a Ford distributor.

2_8TB-18.JPG


and how to transition the 2bbl Autolite2100/ Motorcraft 2150/ Holley 2300 Ford 2bbl mount to the 2bbl TBi throttle body.

2_8TB-11.JPG


2_8TB-12.JPG


Direct mount using Stanyons method.
http://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t394 ... og-milling

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72198&p=554386#p554386

stanyon":33n95ghl said:
Milling or machining the head for a direst mount for the Weber really isn't that hard, a couple of hours is what it took me . Search Milling Intake.

http://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t394 ... og-milling


cuttin11.jpg


78_log11.jpg



And MPG Mustangs

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=68406

IMG_20120807_221537.jpg
 
It is my understanding that interference is not a problem when using an 8-pin(or 7 pin) hei module. The module communicates a square wave to the ecm and the magnetic pickup is the timing reference the 8-pin is made for, variable reluctor = magnetic pickup. Yes the mechanical advance has to be lock-down, removed or otherwise disabled completely, vacuum advance removed etc. And the reluctor/rotor has to be phased properly. This is after all the stock GM TBI factory setup. VR in the distributor to 7 or 8 pin module to ecm. If interference was a huge problem they wouldn't have made thousands upon thousands of production cars this way. The 7 and 8 pin modules are not like the 4 pin module.

http://www.useasydocs.com/details/GM_7pinHEI.htm
 
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72783&p=559468#p559468

by 67Straightsix, XFlow_Fairlane and thesameguy

xctasy":1t29ww8z said:
LOL, :cool: :LOL: good choice. If your expecting to fly soon, your happy day is here again...

:cool:


Between XFlow_Fairlane and thesameguy in this post, http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67718, a plan was hatched out with the Lima 1992 year 2300 cam synchronizer.

Ranger, Mustang should be the same about those later years. It was XFlow_Fairlane who used the 2.3 drive way back in the day, and it didn't take much to set thesameguy on the right path.


These two posts give you the vitla ingredients..

thesameguy":1t29ww8z said:
I went by the junkyard last weekend, and amazingly there were two '92 4-cylinder Mustangs there. I almost pulled the whole motor I was so happy (can't have too many 2.3l Lima parts around!), but instead I just pulled the oil pump drive.

Here is what it looks like removed:

falcon_edis_pumpdrive1.JPG


Couple things are true:

1. The gear is different compared to a six. It's at least a different diameter, didn't bother counting the teeth.
2. The shaft size is the same between the two, but there is a crown on top of the six's gear that interferes with the body of Mustang part.
3. The shaft on the Mustang part is about 1/4" longer from gear to nose than on the six. The recess/drive for the oil pump shaft is about 1/4" deeper than the six's distributor, so it could lose some length.

Here's an image approximating the gear interference:

falcon_edis_pumpdrive2.JPG


So.... I dropped the gear and pump drive off at a machine stop. They are gonna turn down the gear and trim the nose off the shaft. Hopefully that does it. I can't see any immediate reason why it won't.


thesameguy":1t29ww8z said:
Got the oil pump drive back from the machine shop.

This picture shows the modified drive versus the original. Notice the top of the gear (post above) has been machined off, and the nose of drive has been removed. The 2.3l four is thicker than the small six here, so the drive is about 1/4" longer.

falcon_edis_drivecomparison_sm.JPG


Here is the measurement between the tip of the drive the hole for the roll pin. This measurement is on a 200ci six distributor shaft with the gear removed. This is what you need to get the shaft on the 2.3l oil pump drive down to.

falcon_edis_drivelength_sm.JPG


And, finally, here it is installed. Although a total anachronism, it just about looks like this motor was designed to have distributorless ignition from the beginning! I used the hold down from the 2.3l motor, as it fits much better of the drive that the stock piece. I had to hack it in half and redrill the hole, but it's a better fit and I won't have to worry about the drive floating out the block. ;)

falcon_edis_driveinstalled_sm.JPG


Only point of concern for me is that I got the gear installed properly vertically. Pretty sure my measurements were all good, but I snapped some pictures of the teeth on the drive gear and will check out wear in a while to make sure it doesn't need adjustment.

This project is pretty much DONE. I am really looking forward to many months of driving this car and NOT working on it. :)


Maybee the 49.447 mm reading (if that what it is, 1.9467" decimalized) can be used to your advantage
 
viewtopic.php?t=74307
67Straightsix":2hxi7szr said:
I got a few more things done - decided to change the intake design to give more room between the plenum and the headers. Also, mounted the crankshaft sensor- it ended up being 180 degrees off of where I planned on putting it. It looks simple in the picture, but it took a long time to figure out :banghead: Getting very close to having all my engine fabrication done - next step is to wire in the computer and start it up! I decided to abandon the 40 EDIS and go with coil on plug because I can fine tune the dwell more precisely. Hopefully the next time I post the engine will be complete and painted - getting excited :D pmuller9 thanks for the information. I'll be contacting them soon.
Wgrm0M.jpg

4AUsPs.jpg

DMPZrF.jpg

67Straightsix":2hxi7szr said:
66Sprint6":2hxi7szr said:
Looks awesome! Your headers make mine look like less of a headache!!! I was happy to design something that would fit nice and tidy and not interfere with anything along the way...yours take up every bit of room and then some.

Matt

Your set-up is clean - I had the a/c to work around, which made things complicated.
I've finished the adapter for the 5.0 bell housing and have got my coil bracket made - I just have to make the throttle body adapter and then all my fabrication
on the motor will be done!! :beer: Then the wiring begins...

plxzfwcaj

plrrxrfjj
 
If you have the 4 pin DUI now, on your 240 I6, it can be converted to 7 pin, and then the whole thing can run Chevy EST and TBi like MPG Mustang did.

If you want to go EDIS 6, then your best off with a 2 wire VR sensor (as recomended), or 3 wire Hall Efffect sensor (1997 on 3.8 V6).

Then decide on what fuel system you'll run.


EDIS 6 always went hand in hand with port EFI.

except thesameguy.

He's special.
 
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