Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

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ssg66stang
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Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #1 by ssg66stang » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:53 pm

Hi everyone,

I am looking for recommendations for mini-starters that will work with a 200cid block and headers, preferably Clifford's Performance headers. My existing starter is going out and although a lot of people recommend certain mini-starters I haven't been able to find someone that has first hand experience with a mini-stater on a 200 cid block. I have called PowerMasters but even they can't guarantee me that a particular starter will work. Does anyone currently have one installed that they like and that they can give me the specifics so I can order one.

Any recommendations on an alternator?

Thank you
Aaron

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chad
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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #2 by chad » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:13 am

Hi Aron,
been following ur progress alill. Starting 2 get folks mixed up tho. :oops:

If U have the Handbook there's 2 listed in there. There may B the same 2 listed in the "Tech Archive" above.
I used 1 on a 250/headers - the 3.8 bent6 'stang. I forget what yr but again - may B listed in the 2 sources just mentioned in more detail (like yr for instance). I go low budget & these (esp the oe ford) fits that bill (esp compaired to the after mrkt 'mini starters').

Alt same - can't U just go to the local big box store and order by Y/M/M of what U drive?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #3 by ssg66stang » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:42 pm

Chad, Thanks for the reply. I have my Falcon handbook on the way to me from VI. I have read several (not all) of the articles in the Tech archive but I haven't seen one that has to do with starters.

I apologize for any confusion that I have created in my posts but I am battling (and losing) several issues. I recently installed a new HEI dizzy and am still trying to dial in my timing. While I have been working that issue I have been having a hard hot start issue that I have been trying to remedy. I thought it would be best to try cheaper fixes first, so I bought a heat shield wrap for starters from my local auto parts store. After installing the wrap, the starter was still giving me some issues, but this time the engine wasn't even fully warm. I tapped on the starter with a ballpeen hammer and she started to work again, so I am assuming that my starter is going out. Hence, me asking for recommendations on a mini-starter. My though process at this point is to get a mini-starter because I need to replace the existing one and I might as well spend the extra $50-$80 for a mini starter and hopefully that will help address any "heat soak" that my current starter may have been experiencing. I was also asking about any alt. recommendations because I am at the point of finding a local shop that can help me get the car running well enough to get the tags current and then I can tackle projects as they arise.

I just figured that I would replace the starter and the alternator before I took it to a local shop because I don't want to give them the opportunity to try and feed me some crap about "well, this might be the problem"...

My current setup is the following -

1966 Coupe
1966 200cid block, 1978 250 head milled for a CR of 9:1, Weber 38 carb and Clifford Performance Headers with Cherry Bomb mufflers

Any help anyone can give would be great. I need to get this car road worthy in the next few weeks. If any knows of good local shops in the Houston, TX area that can help me get my mustang running and not cost me an arm and a leg, that would be great.

Thanks
Aaron

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alt. from: NAPA, Advance, AutoZone, O'Rilley's, etc

Post #4 by chad » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:40 pm

ssg66stang wrote:...If any knows of good local shops in the Houston, TX area that can help me get my mustang running and not cost me an arm and a leg, that would be great.
Thanks
Aaron

C our "mechanics and machinists" forum 4 recommendation
(if avail to ur geo area. I have not looked for Huston's entries).
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #5 by bmbm40 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:28 pm

I got the mini starter for my 250 from this guy and he was very knowledgeable. Been in the business for a long time so can probably get you the correct starter. He rebuilds alts and starters and sells new ones. In Dallas.

https://www.google.com/search?q=alterst ... fox-b-1-ab
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

'81 F150 4x4 300

New guy? Get this>http://www.falcon6handbook.com

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #6 by drag-200stang » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:54 am

ssg, the starter bolts to the bell housing , so what matters most , is what bell housing you have bolted to your block, 277 8-1/5 ", 303 9", C4 and what flex plate,etc.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #7 by Matthew68 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:52 am

Mustang Monthly put an article out back in 2008 about a mini starter from PA Performance. They don't break it down by engine size, but rather year and transmission type. I'm sure if you call them they would walk you through it.

Here's the article: http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/e ... r-upgrade/

Here's the PA Performance website: http://www.paperformance.com/

I don't have this setup currently so can't provide firsthand feedback, but found them when I had (what I thought was) starter problems. Turned out to be the neutral safety switch.

Cheers,
M
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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #8 by B RON CO » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:57 pm

Hi, Ford made alternators in the sixties rated at 38 amps, 42 amps, 53 amps, 55 amps, and 60 amps, depending on the car and options list.
When I need a replacement alternator I go for the biggest one available. I also change to the electronic voltage regulator. I want better name brand parts, usually from Napa. The bigger alternator and modern regulator are bolt ins. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

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ssg66stang
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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #9 by ssg66stang » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:40 pm

drag-200stang,

I have a 200block bolted up to a C4 A/T. Does that help?

Aaron

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #10 by drag-200stang » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:19 pm

ssg66stang wrote:drag-200stang,

I have a 200block bolted up to a C4 A/T. Does that help?

Aaron

Yes, now we know what you have, the year of the trans would be good to know also...Hopefully some one has that combo and can help..I run a V8 sbf scatter shield bolted to an adapter so I am of no help...If you think that you have starter fitment problems I am switching to a sb/bb Chevy bellhousing. :) .the ford is to old to cert. and the Chevy is readily available and cheaper.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #11 by RobbMc » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:41 pm

We offer five different mini starters for Ford. I can quickly narrow it down to one of these two:
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/produc ... arter.html
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/produc ... arter.html
Read all the info on both pages and you can determine which one will work.
Note: All of our Ford starters have three mounting bolt holes. Some applications will only use two of the three.

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #12 by chad » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:47 pm

RobbMc wrote:We offer five different mini starters for Ford. I can quickly narrow it down to one of these two:
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/produc ... arter.html
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/produc ... arter.html
Read all the info on both pages and you can determine which one will work.
Note: All of our Ford starters have three mounting bolt holes. Some applications will only use two of the three.


difference for the two: 3/4 or 3/8 inch ring gear offset.
Cool, thanks for the post.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #13 by The Blue Box » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:02 pm

Are ford v8 and 6cy starters the same? Mine blew up after being rebuilt due to a crappy gear (must of been cast because it shattered) any ways i replaced it with one i took off of a mid 60s FE 351 that i had laying around. It looked identical to the 6 starter. Maybe the v8 starters have more aftermarket? I dont know but it works just fine without any grinding or anything.
1964 Econoline with 2bbl converted 200 six

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #14 by ssg66stang » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:03 am

The saga continues... So I have called PowerMaster and PA Performance and neither of the people that I spoke to at either place can tell me if they have a mini-starter that will fit a 200 block bolted to a C4 tranny. They all say "I think this will fit". So instead I was thinking about going with a OEM starter wrapped in a heat shield and using DEI titanium header wrap on my Clifford headers. Both of these items are readily available at my local auto parts store so there is no wait time. Does anyone have experience with DEI header wrap? The reason I am willing to try an OEM starter is because the starter that I currently have in the car is at least 10 years old, so I'm hoping that its age coupled with the heat from the new headers played a part in it starting to fail. (on of the bad parts about an OEM starter is that if I ever have to replace it I will have to drop the headers again because of clearance issues)

Anyone have any thoughts on this or advice to give?

Thanks
Aaron

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #15 by drag-200stang » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:26 am

RobbMc wrote:We offer five different mini starters for Ford. I can quickly narrow it down to one of these two:
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/produc ... arter.html
http://www.robbmcperformance.com/produc ... arter.html
Read all the info on both pages and you can determine which one will work.
Note: All of our Ford starters have three mounting bolt holes. Some applications will only use two of the three.

What is wrong with this ? ..Did you talk to Robb mc? There is measurements on the site, match it up. See if he will take it back if you do not start it or ding it up... , look at all ford starter pages. A straight edge and a 6" caliper should be all you need.
I do not think that it is heat soak, just crappy starters that are available today especially at the auto parts. I never had problems with headers , that is a chevy thing.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #16 by wsa111 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:05 pm

I bet the 3001 will work. If it mates up to the ring gear you are all set. Only problem i had with my nippendendo unit was the converter bolts hitting the housing nose below the pinion gear on acceleration. The nose housing had to be relieved where the bolts hit it on acceleration. A flex plate moves back & forth during heavy throttle application.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, duraspark II dist. with MSD-6AL. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #17 by ssg66stang » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:04 am

Bill,

God-willing I will have time to drop the headers, to remove the existing starter, this weekend and measure the distance from the mounting surface of the bellhousing to the ring gear. I measured a C4 that I have laying around in the garage and it was between 3/8" and 1/2". According to what Robb posted, the 3008 would be the one that I should order. We shall see. I will let you know what I find out.

Thanks
Aaron

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #18 by revherbel » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:11 pm

I run your set up in my '63 Comet currently. I have a 200 with Clifford headers (on a modified head, too, so I can help with those questions too) and a C4. I have the PowerMaster 9406. It's sold as an FE starter but the FE three bolt pattern works on the 200. Measure with a set of calipers to make sure there's a good mesh. I removed the shim before installing mine (the shim on the mini-starter).

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #19 by ssg66stang » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:44 pm

So...I finally just had the opportunity to finish installing the mini-starter that I purchased from Robb over at RobbMC Performance (great guys to deal with and super responsive. Every time I called I was able to speak to someone and several times I spoke with Robb himself). The starter is well built and solid. In addition to that the solenoid position is adjustable, so thats a plus and makes this starter great for several applications/headers designs.

This afternoon, I had enough time to finish bolting up my headers and I was finally able to take the car off of jack stands. And that is the end of my good news. For some reason the starter doesn't sound like it is engaging the ring gear. When I turn the key to start the engine, there seems to be a whining noise from the starter. I'm pretty confident that there isn't anything wrong with the starter but can there be another issue with my car? Do I need to shim the starter? Can a bad solenoid cause this? If so can someone PLEASE give me instructions on how to test my existing solenoid?

This is so frustrating, I'm tired of it!!(sorry for the vent)

Any help would be great.

Thanks
Aaron

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #20 by wsa111 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:55 pm

How did you wire the Starter ?? Is there a jumper wire from the starter terminal to the solenoid to engage it.
Pull the bottom converter cover & look if the bendix is moving to engage the ring gear??
Call Robb. Man you can't get a break.
67 mustang,C-4, with mod. 80 hd, custom 500 cfm carb with annular boosters, hooker headers, dual exh.-X pipe, flowmaster mufflers, duraspark II dist. with MSD-6AL. Engine 205" .030" over with offset ground crank & 1.65 roller rockers. 9.5 comp., Isky 262 cam.
2003 Ford Lightning daily driver. Recurving Distributors. billythedistributorman@live.com
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solenoid gear to engage FW or Flex Plate

Post #21 by chad » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:02 pm

the wine might B it spinning (a good thing).

"...test my existing solenoid..."
As Bill sez look for the solenoid to B jumpin out during the wine/when key is held over...

"...Do I need to shim the starter? ..."
I can't tell frm here. Does solenoid push that lill gear out ...far enuff to engage the ring gear? What came in directions concerning the snout length for ur application? Any idea on need for a 'block plate' in this app? Some remove them.

Keep talkin~
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Mini-Starter & Alternator Recommendations

Post #22 by ssg66stang » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:45 am

I wired the starter per the instructions that Robb sends with his starters. Positive battery cable to the remote solenoid, positive cable from the same post to the starter and then a smaller 10ga wire from the post on the other side of the solenoid to the solenoid on the starter(to a different post than the battery cable). I am planning on giving Robb a call later this morning. I'll post pictures when I get home this evening.

Thanks
Aaron

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