250 Head Swap

65_Stang_170

Well-known member
Hello All!

I am purchasing/picking up a '69 250 (C9DE) engine this weekend for a steal of $80 (that's a steal right?). I am thinking about eventually swapping the head on to my 170 in my mustang, and had a few questions:

1. According to the handbook, this isn't the recommended late 70s/early 80s head, how big of a difference (between the '69 and later models) will this be? The main thing is getting the large log right?

2. The engine appears to have distributor/carb still on it: if it was stock, would this likely be a dsII? How can I tell? I will likely swap the dist/carb from the engine and remove my carb/LoM dist...

3. If it isn't a dsII, I should still swap out my LoM with this one right (if it's in working condition)?

4. Is there a market for a 250 without the head? I thought about putting it in my mustang, but i think that would be too much modification than I am wanting to do. Also, I don't think my 7.25 rear end could handle it?

5. I know what needs/should be done to the head (handbook) before plopping it on, but are there other things to consider?

It was advertised as running when pulled, obviously I can't rely on this being true.

6. What should I check on the engine before pulling anything off of it?

I've attached a few photos of the engine. Thanks in advance for the info! Sorry for all of the questions...
 

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69 would have a points distributor with both centrifugal and mechanical advance, a 77 DSII distributor is a drop in replacement. The carb looks to be an 1101. The main difference in the 69-76 or so heads and the 77-79 heads are smaller intake valves, 1.65" vs 1.75", and no hardened exhaust valve seats.

That head would be a good upgrade as is for your 170. If your 170 has a 5/16 oil drive you could also swap the 1101 over and the distributor, or put in a DSII with the 1101. It's got the good valve cover to, you'll probably want that. Heads aren't that hard to find, so I would think if the overall condition of the 250 is good, it will still be worth at least what you have in it or better.

Nice score! :beer:
 
Congrats, definitely a good deal.

Looks like the C9DE still has a Points distrib, If you have a '65 with C3 or C5 block, the diz probably won't fit block.

RBS 'teapot' carb is higher CFM and usually decent upgrade for freshened 170/200 .

The Cyl head if original probably has @ 62 cc chambers and will need to be milled to achieve your target compression ratio with modern composite gasket. ( ... when head is removed, IF there is a steel shim head gasket, you can presume it has never been off).

I haev a '63 4dr wagon with a totally stock (Maverick) C8DE 170 and 'built' D6 head milled @ .070 to @ 48CC chambers for @ 9.4:1 SCR. Been running great for @ 10 years with a 5200 (32/36)on a $15 2bbl adaptor, dual headers and points distributor.

Don't know where you're located but I would gladly dish out $80.oo WITHOUT the head for usable-intact 250 block.

(... probably from another foolish V8 swap ? 8) )

have fun
 
I would keep both heads. My opinion only.
No, the C9 is less desirable than the late models (but it is the rare "M" head - makes oneada best 'direct mount' machined carb mods).
I C the distrib. & looks like the OE for that motor (non-DSII) as the cap is small. Block has not been machined 4 bigger d. shaft (DSII).

Sooo, in simple terms (but not totally correct) '65 can't upgrade distrib to the DSII can't change out SCV (need SCV to match LOM in dizzy). Some would put the 250 in as it can all B upgraded (in 'both departments'). If U can build a stout (4X4 lumber, or if a welder - 1 inch angle iron) test/rebuilding stand U can run the 250 (if brief enuff, don't even need 2 set up a radiator) 2 assess the motor and decide on a machining/rebuild.

U R basically lookin at the same thing I have/had (but in a stang not bronk). A 170 change to the 250, again, my opinion only. Keep the 170 valve train as the rockers should B the adjustable / can go on the 250.

If no interest (possible machining either way) and having room, yes the 250 w/o a head is worth $80 to some1 else, save it. A simple Petronix & larger SCV carb is about all U can add of worth to pep it up (plenty other lill things to try & that's how we all get there anyway).

I am not a very clear writer (I can speak OK tho) so ask for more clarity, or anyother reason. Luv to hear more bout ur plans!
 
Keep the 170 valve train as the rockers should B the adjustable / can go on the 250.

.... (and the ball/cup PR's) good catch to keep in mind for the rebuild.
 
Do you know what year your existing block is? if a 66 or later you can go with DSII and there is a chance your original motor could have been changed at some point.
If you have room to store it I would get the whole unit. You may decide someday that you actually need a 250 in your Mustang.
Or depending on your location a member on here might swap a good 200 block for the 250. Then you can use that with you 69 head and have a real nice boost.
 
powerband":xd0c4olu said:
Don't know where you're located but I would gladly dish out $80.oo WITHOUT the head for usable-intact 250 block.

(... probably from another foolish V8 swap ? 8) )

have fun

I'll second that.
 
powerband":akjvc71x said:

.... (and the ball/cup PR's) good catch to keep in mind for the rebuild.
Sorry, yes - PLEZ do NOT 4get those Push Rods. I return the "good catch" & second Seth's idea.
Boy, I think you'd like a 200 in ur vehicle & a swap for the 250 is something to think about (as I will. I have a 170 & 250, 3 yrs now?). Absolutely no mods to the 200, a bolt in...

Do U have the "Handbook"? Have U seen the "Tech Archive" (4th big box above)?
 
You may want to consider installing the 250 into your 65.

In 1977 I installed a 250 in my first 65 Mustang.
It wasn't that difficult, only had a hood clearance problem (didn't know about slotting the engine mounts to lower it).
Kept the 7.25 rear end and it held up. Had the front V8 yoke mated to the 6 cyl driveshaft.

You may want to read these two articles in the Tech Section:
ci/250Swap.html

ci/250old.html
 
Econoline":2i3te153 said:
69 would have a points distributor with both centrifugal and mechanical advance, a 77 DSII distributor is a drop in replacement. The carb looks to be an 1101. The main difference in the 69-76 or so heads and the 77-79 heads are smaller intake valves, 1.65" vs 1.75", and no hardened exhaust valve seats.

That head would be a good upgrade as is for your 170. If your 170 has a 5/16 oil drive you could also swap the 1101 over and the distributor, or put in a DSII with the 1101. It's got the good valve cover to, you'll probably want that. Heads aren't that hard to find, so I would think if the overall condition of the 250 is good, it will still be worth at least what you have in it or better.

Nice score! :beer:

powerband":2i3te153 said:
Congrats, definitely a good deal.

Looks like the C9DE still has a Points distrib, If you have a '65 with C3 or C5 block, the diz probably won't fit block.

RBS 'teapot' carb is higher CFM and usually decent upgrade for freshened 170/200 .

bmbm40":2i3te153 said:
Do you know what year your existing block is? if a 66 or later you can go with DSII and there is a chance your original motor could have been changed at some point.
If you have room to store it I would get the whole unit. You may decide someday that you actually need a 250 in your Mustang.
Or depending on your location a member on here might swap a good 200 block for the 250. Then you can use that with you 69 head and have a real nice boost.

I have a C6 block, so I believe I have the 5/16 oil drive. I will probably end up swapping the distrib/carb to rid myself of the LoM until I snag a DSII, and I will probably do it next week once I rebuild the carb on the 250.

Seth, what makes it a good valve cover?

Powerband, what's an RBS 'teapot' carb? Haven't read/seen that term yet. Is that what's on the 250?

I don't have room, but I'm going to keep the whole engine for now. Thanks for the info gents!
 
chad":uytp78g5 said:
I would keep both heads. My opinion only.
No, the C9 is less desirable than the late models (but it is the rare "M" head - makes oneada best 'direct mount' machined carb mods).

If U can build a stout (4X4 lumber, or if a welder - 1 inch angle iron) test/rebuilding stand U can run the 250 (if brief enuff, don't even need 2 set up a radiator) 2 assess the motor and decide on a machining/rebuild.

U R basically lookin at the same thing I have/had (but in a stang not bronk). A 170 change to the 250, again, my opinion only. Keep the 170 valve train as the rockers should B the adjustable / can go on the 250.

chad":uytp78g5 said:
Boy, I think you'd like a 200 in ur vehicle & a swap for the 250 is something to think about (as I will. I have a 170 & 250, 3 yrs now?). Absolutely no mods to the 200, a bolt in...

Do U have the "Handbook"? Have U seen the "Tech Archive" (4th big box above)?

Chad, If I were to build a stand, I would go the wood route, as I have no experience/equipment to weld something up. Do you have any plans for building a stand? I was definitely going to (at some point) work towards a machined direct mount (either for 2 barrel or triple carb setup). I think I will eventually end up with a 200. Maybe I'll save the 250, and start compiling the parts needed to drop it in at some point... Thanks for the tips.
 
Powerband, what's an RBS 'teapot' carb? Haven't read/seen that term yet. Is that what's on the 250?

> on closer inspection I don't believe the carb is an RBS, can't quite determine from pic but looks like an 1100 variant.

RBS carb is a very short 1Bbl used on 250 Maverick's to aid hood clearance .

RBS:



have fun
 
rocklord":1iq2sd52 said:
You may want to consider installing the 250 into your 65.

In 1977 I installed a 250 in my first 65 Mustang.
It wasn't that difficult, only had a hood clearance problem (didn't know about slotting the engine mounts to lower it).
Kept the 7.25 rear end and it held up. Had the front V8 yoke mated to the 6 cyl driveshaft.

You may want to read these two articles in the Tech Section:
ci/250Swap.html

ci/250old.html

Dan, what transmission/bellhousing combo did you run with the 250? Did you move your radiator forward or put in an electric fan?

I considered dropping in the 250, but couldn't get a good gauge on the pieces needed/modifications. Thanks!
 
Howdy 65Stang and all:

You've already got some good advice on 1 thru 5, so I'll just add on #6-
"6. What should I check on the engine before pulling anything off of it?"
For a quick check on assessing the 250 prior to pulling the head, start by pullling and assessing the spark plugs. Oily and dark plugs is a good indication that the engine will need some work or rebuild. Bad valve guide seals can also cause that. White and chalky plugs could indicate a water problem as in a bad head gasket. All the plugs should look very similar. If not that could indicate an oiling problem from the rocker shaft. With the plugs out try to turn the engine over. If the engine rotates that is a good indication that the short block is a good core for rebuilding.

On the valve cover, the "Powered by Ford" late model valve covers have several advantages over earlier valve covers. They seal better, they have some brackets on the coil side that facilitate throttle cable linkage when using an across the valve cover cable, and they have a better system for adding oil and crankcase vents And they are cool.

The Autolite 1101 and later distributor will make a significant power increase to your 170. And it will be mostly bolt-in. The larger throttle bore on the 1101 will require just a little flaring to clear the butterfly valve.

Good catch on the 250 engine. Lots of possibilities. Keep in coming.

Adios, David
 
65_Stang_170":cidylkd7 said:
rocklord":cidylkd7 said:
You may want to consider installing the 250 into your 65.

In 1977 I installed a 250 in my first 65 Mustang.
It wasn't that difficult, only had a hood clearance problem (didn't know about slotting the engine mounts to lower it).
Kept the 7.25 rear end and it held up. Had the front V8 yoke mated to the 6 cyl driveshaft.

You may want to read these two articles in the Tech Section:
ci/250Swap.html

ci/250old.html

Dan, what transmission/bellhousing combo did you run with the 250? Did you move your radiator forward or put in an electric fan?

I considered dropping in the 250, but couldn't get a good gauge on the pieces needed/modifications. Thanks!

I ran the stock 250 bellhousing and 3spd 3.03 transmission. The 250 uses the same bellhousing as the 302 V8, so finding one shouldn't be a problem. The clutch Z-bar for a V8 bolts right in. The flywheel (157 tooth) from a 302 V8 will bolt right up to a 250, but it has to be zero balanced. You can find aftermarket V8 flywheels that have a removable weight; just don't attach the weight and the flywheel will be zero balance.

I didn't move the radiator at all and the 250 fit right in with the stock fan. A slim electric fan would be a nice upgrade, either a pusher on the front of the radiator or puller between the radiator and engine. I used the stock radiator that came with the 200.

The biggest problem I had was hood clearance; I modified a stock air cleaner to get the 1-inch+ clearance. Slotting the engine mount holes and using a low profile air cleaner should help. Finding 250 frame mounts from a 1969 Mustang, or Maverick would help in lowering the engine

I installed the 250 in my 65 Mustang before there was an internet, or articles that would have helped me through the installation.
Read the articles I previously noted; they will help.
 
CZLN6":14tljegq said:
Howdy 65Stang and all:
For a quick check on assessing the 250 prior to pulling the head, start by pullling and assessing the spark plugs. Oily and dark plugs is a good indication that the engine will need some work or rebuild. Bad valve guide seals can also cause that. White and chalky plugs could indicate a water problem as in a bad head gasket. All the plugs should look very similar. If not that could indicate an oiling problem from the rocker shaft. With the plugs out try to turn the engine over. If the engine rotates that is a good indication that the short block is a good core for rebuilding.

David, Thank you for the info. I will be sure to check for these things.

rocklord":14tljegq said:
I ran the stock 250 bellhousing and 3spd 3.03 transmission. The 250 uses the same bellhousing as the 302 V8, so finding one shouldn't be a problem. The clutch Z-bar for a V8 bolts right in. The flywheel (157 tooth) from a 302 V8 will bolt right up to a 250, but it has to be zero balanced. You can find aftermarket V8 flywheels that have a removable weight; just don't attach the weight and the flywheel will be zero balance.

I didn't move the radiator at all and the 250 fit right in with the stock fan. A slim electric fan would be a nice upgrade, either a pusher on the front of the radiator or puller between the radiator and engine. I used the stock radiator that came with the 200.

The biggest problem I had was hood clearance; I modified a stock air cleaner to get the 1-inch+ clearance. Slotting the engine mount holes and using a low profile air cleaner should help. Finding 250 frame mounts from a 1969 Mustang, or Maverick would help in lowering the engine

I installed the 250 in my 65 Mustang before there was an internet, or articles that would have helped me through the installation.
Read the articles I previously noted; they will help.

Dan, This is perfect. I will be sure to keep this in my back pocket if I decide to drop in the 250.
 
CZLN6":3b5msxyn said:
You've already got some good advice on 1 thru 5, so I'll just add on #6-
"6. What should I check on the engine before pulling anything off of it?"
For a quick check on assessing the 250 prior to pulling the head, start by pullling and assessing the spark plugs. Oily and dark plugs is a good indication that the engine will need some work or rebuild. Bad valve guide seals can also cause that. White and chalky plugs could indicate a water problem as in a bad head gasket. All the plugs should look very similar. If not that could indicate an oiling problem from the rocker shaft. With the plugs out try to turn the engine over. If the engine rotates that is a good indication that the short block is a good core for rebuilding.

Ok, I got the engine back to my house. I haven't had too much time with it yet, but I did get a chance to pull the plugs. They were black and sooty, but didn't seem to be oily, and all plugs looked identical. With the plugs out, I could see some residue in the cylinders/on the pistons. These areas should be clean/clear right? I was able to get the engine to turn without much issue.

I am going to rebuild the 1101 and swap it onto my 170. I will also be pulling the distributor to swap in. What do I need to look for with the distributor to make sure it is in good working order?
 
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