Firebolt's EFI 200 build

Firebolt

Well-known member
Hi all, I think it is best to write my questions to here and not to EFI section, I'll post there when it's time. So lets start:

I have 1980 Mustang notchback with 200 cid, T5 and 8.8 3.08 differential. The car had aluminium head years ago, but that engine was sold before I got this car. For now it's been over 5 years that I bought it and I haven't even changed oil for it, I might have driven 1000 km with it.

Here is something about the previous life of this car: http://ponikorjaamo.com/ti80/index.htm

Teppo was also planning to do fuel injection to this car, but he changed to Classic Inlines head and then kept it with carb.

I'll try to add some photos when updating here, I downloaded Instagram but still think these forums are always better in longer run. I don't post often to Instagram, but you'll find me there as rentoratsastaja.
 
Well, that firing order wasn't necessary, but the two earlier pictures, does that C8DE 6015-B mean '69-72 and that head would be the same?

Next question, I'm looking for bigger valves, what do I need to do to that head to fit them? I know I should get that Falcon six book, but don't want to order it separately overseas, would be better to order all the parts at the same time with the book.

Something to do:
Valves, springs etc.
Clay Smith cams 274/274 (224/224) 110 is already waiting for install
Classic Inlines header needs some love, its flange looks bent. I'm changing it to V-band.
2.5" stainless exhaust pipe with two mufflers, I fabricate this one from aftermarket curves I already have.
I think I should get dual roller timing chain, so I could degree the cam easier
Damper. The current one looks like this:

20180208_111255.jpg
20180208_111248.jpg
It looks like those 250 dampers in vintage inlines site, and I'd want to convert to serpentine belt. So for my third question; is any inline 6 damper good, if I'll fabricate adapter for it and balance it with flywheel and crank? Because the cam is marked 2300-6200 rpm, damper should be good at least to 6500, so it wouldn't go over. I think dampers for Ford big sixes doesn't like that much revs, or any diesel engine damper.

I found this marked as 200 cid damper, but it looks strange. I think its not for Ford inline? www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=526 ... 5&jsn=2754
 
That is a 68 200 block with what appears to be an unusual 68 large log head. What size is the carb flange on that head?
 
Firebolt":2fsodzng said:
Well, that firing order wasn't necessary, but the two earlier pictures, does that C8DE 6015-B mean '69-72 and that head would be the same?

Next question, I'm looking for bigger valves, what do I need to do to that head to fit them? I know I should get that Falcon six book, but don't want to order it separately overseas, would be better to order all the parts at the same time with the book.

Something to do:
Valves, springs etc.
Clay Smith cams 274/274 (224/224) 110 is already waiting for install
Classic Inlines header needs some love, its flange looks bent. I'm changing it to V-band.
2.5" stainless exhaust pipe with two mufflers, I fabricate this one from aftermarket curves I already have.
I think I should get dual roller timing chain, so I could degree the cam easier
Damper. The current one looks like this:

20180208_111255.jpg
20180208_111248.jpg
It looks like those 250 dampers in vintage inlines site, and I'd want to convert to serpentine belt. So for my third question; is any inline 6 damper good, if I'll fabricate adapter for it and balance it with flywheel and crank? Because the cam is marked 2300-6200 rpm, damper should be good at least to 6500, so it wouldn't go over. I think dampers for Ford big sixes doesn't like that much revs, or any diesel engine damper.

I found this marked as 200 cid damper, but it looks strange. I think its not for Ford inline? http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php ... 5&jsn=2754

The pictures show a late 1970's up SBF Ford 302 / 5.0 V8 Dampner (four bolt hub) depending on the actual year maybe a 28 oz.imbalance or might be a 50 oz, from the picture it is probally a 50 oz imbalance. It's not going to just bolt on and work on your small six as it is, and your existing crank pulley isn't going to fit. Good luck (y) :nod:
 
Econoline":2h9tchg9 said:
That is a 68 200 block with what appears to be an unusual 68 large log head. What size is the carb flange on that head?

I can't remember the correct size, but it is the smaller one. Was it 1 1/4"?

Edit: I measured it and it is 45 mm so 1 3/4" was correct, don't know where that first one came...

That head being large log might change plans, I think I'll go with the previous plan to just drill holes for injectors.
 
bubba22349":463pownz said:
The pictures show a late 1970's up SBF Ford 302 / 5.0 V8 Dampner (four bolt hub) depending on the actual year maybe a 28 oz.imbalance or might be a 50 oz, from the picture it is probally a 50 oz imbalance. It's not going to just bolt on and work on your small six as it is, and your existing crank pulley isn't going to fit. Good luck (y) :nod:

Thanks, that looked like it is imbalance and the crank bore is bigger than other dampers. That kind of damper would be good and easy to fit serpentine pulley, but wrong is wrong.

I started thinking drilling those injector holes again, and the question is again where...

Kannen etuosa.jpg

So, at first I planned to bore those holes upright to that red circle, but the rear of the intake is different:

Kannen takaosa.jpg

Does that matter? The yellow circle and red line points the difference to first three cylinders. That yellow arrow in first pic is another option, drilling the holes to the side of the intake.

With fuel the engine needs also air, so I thought about drilling two holes more for air, like in Offenhauser triple manifold and connect those to one throttle body. That could "increase the cc of log", but does it matter?
 
I hope I don't need to post this often later, but now when I'm trying to scan all the parts and stuff, I need to get these ideas up somewhere.

For valve train, I like the idea of beehive springs, since there is no need for more than 1 spring/valve, and retainer is lighter. Would it be good to use stock 77-83 valves, or should I get even bigger?

I looked at Summit and found some springs :
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ ... /overview/

Retainers:
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-787-12 or https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ ... /overview/

I think valve locks should be from same manufacturer as retainers, but do I get 7 or 10 degree locks? Clay Smith sells 7 degree ones for these engines, is that the best option,is it possible that Comp cams or Lunati might have issues with these valves?

And those umbrella style seals, are they working properly with beehives, or should I get those viton valve seals from Vintage Inlines?
 
Firebolt":24gwm59f said:
...or should I get...from Vintage Inlines?
I'd just get everythinf (I could) from there but I'd rather simplify what I can.

Another (possibly poor) idea is to drill the bungs for the injectors centered on: #6 - the space between the [b*]numbers*[/b] and ur red line;
#5 - a lill to the valve side of the "cast in screw"; #4 - a lill to same (top side of pic) side from the "F" in ford; etc. with them all drilled @ an angle (30*?) so as to direct the spray straight dwn the 'runners' toward valves. How duz heat (log is cast & right on top'o da exhaust) effect injectors?

Also (again may B not so great an idea) decide on 'trigger device', if the O2 will go in the down-tube on those speed daddys, gauges, etc.
_____________________________________________________
I've never seen *numbers* like those B4.

/OR/

a "V" lettered head
:shock:
_____________________________________________________

It may B a Ford Factory Experimental Head? I'd look for another head to do this experiment on. This one almost looks like you wouldn't need to get that Offie triple adaptor...U could just direct mount! :eek:
It looks like my "rare 'M' head" but on steroids!

Anyway, the earlier U head over to "EFI forum" the better - so you'n I differ there.
Where R U located?
Lotta work here...
I'll echo Seth/Econo: "What size is the carb flange on that head?"
 
Finally got the engine out, and header is now ready now moving firewall. Some pics:
 

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Firebolt":1uwbxxbu said:
bubba22349":1uwbxxbu said:
The pictures show a late 1970's up SBF Ford 302 / 5.0 V8 Dampner (four bolt hub) depending on the actual year maybe a 28 oz.imbalance or might be a 50 oz, from the picture it is probally a 50 oz imbalance. It's not going to just bolt on and work on your small six as it is, and your existing crank pulley isn't going to fit. Good luck (y) :nod:

Thanks, that looked like it is imbalance and the crank bore is bigger than other dampers. That kind of damper would be good and easy to fit serpentine pulley, but wrong is wrong.

I started thinking drilling those injector holes again, and the question is again where...

Kannen etuosa.jpg

So, at first I planned to bore those holes upright to that red circle, but the rear of the intake is different:

Kannen takaosa.jpg

Does that matter? The yellow circle and red line points the difference to first three cylinders. That yellow arrow in first pic is another option, drilling the holes to the side of the intake.

With fuel the engine needs also air, so I thought about drilling two holes more for air, like in Offenhauser triple manifold and connect those to one throttle body. That could "increase the cc of log", but does it matter?

You might look at the 1987 to 1997 4.9 300 big six these had surpenetine drive and are zero balance, might be able to be adapted to the 250. Good luck (y) :nod:
 
bubba22349":vx0p0t6s said:
You might look at the 1987 to 1997 4.9 300 big six these had serpentine drive and are zero balance, might be able to be adapted to the 250. Good luck (y) :nod:

Those are a bit bigger diameter for seal and axle, but that's not the problem. How much they are meant to rev, my cam works up to 6000 rpm?
 
Well, it took pretty long to weld all the pieces back to body, and I changed every plan at least 4 times :banghead:

I dismissed myself from work at August, and couldn't afford paying rent for my garage anymore. I had to put this project to pause and moved all my stuff to a shed 300 km away from here. Now I need to graduate from school and get a job, so I can get parts for this thing.

There is some photos of the back of the car, I made new floor, fenders and frame rails, it was very rusty before. Now there is also lots more space for luggage, bigger fuel tank and battery.

0C5A9C42-95A0-4FF3-B8BC-B837F6FE2906.jpeg

Lokasuojan sisäpuoli.jpeg

Takapää.jpeg
 
And now for front of the car:

Moottorin sovitusta3.jpeg

I moved the firewall 15cm back, so engine is now 1 cyl further back.

Moottorin sovitusta4.jpeg

I need to find other options for valve cover, filling oil is going to be pain in the ass :eek:opsie: :mrgreen:

Moottorin sovitusta1.jpeg

Moottorin sovitusta.jpeg

Header fits fine and there is lots of room for bigger intake. I've been seriously considering milling intake top off and welding some huge tube there, but it still looks odd. I'm glad now that I have lots of time to think the design.

Moottorin sovitusta2.jpeg

I didn't have time to make the new front suspension ready before moving car. The front frame rails were so rotten that I had to remove those completely, and it opened a lot of options. So I bought almost full front suspension of E46 BMW and tried to put it in my Ford, but time run out and frame rails are still in workshop waiting for holes to be drilled. So I have only this mockup pick:

Front suspension mockup.jpg

Now working with this car is on hold, and I'm only designing and drawing parts for it. And maybe next year I can start purchasing parts for engine. Aussie crossflow head is still on my shopping list, and that's possibly the only reason I haven't milled my head at yet.
 
here in the States we use the hole in back of valve cover for the PVC (never really comes off much). Frnt is where we fill'n top off the crankcase.

Would U like to C some examples of what others have done here (along the lines of what it appears U R attempting?)? Often we share so one does not have to "reinvent the wheel" - not to copy, altho that can B a good idea, but to C how others have solved a (or multiple) problem(s) and improve on that...or....innovate, save money, time, etc.
 
I love Watts links and 8.8 axles!


Are you going E46 AWD? I know More things add more things, but a front end swap and frame set back is harder than an AWD set up.If you've got a donar E46 4WD, you just need the gearbox and an adaptor to suit the bellhousing or block.


Old racing Fox Mustangs had the German BMW gearbox mated up to the existing SROD bellhousing.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... heel-Drive
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... rive/page2

30-years-of-bmw-all-wheel-drive-cars-going-from-mechanical-to-hybrid-systems_42.jpg



Your work on 15 cm Front Midships engine set back is impressive.

51786025fb7b4d30200d7842278ead67.jpg


The BMW transmission is essentially a Getrag cast off of the ages old Opel Manta 400 AWD FF system, design for Cold War West German security by Fergussan Formula, very much like the AMC Eagle.

FF made many other kits, along with the GM THM 180 transmission AWD Opel Senator and Monza. Ford went FF with the Sierra XR4X4.

Zakspeed used the Getrag 5 speed in the 5.0 Group A and European Challange Mustangs, and Volvo, Opel, Vauxhall and then BMW used it.

The basic part is that BMW and Ford quickly productionised the stuff the Opel abandoned, and that Zakspeeds Getrag and BMW derived parts are an excellent base to start.

Regards Fuel Injection

For port EFI, see Derangedfords90 and XFlow_Fairlane and 200-drag-stangs work on Port EFI.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79103

If you are staying Iron headed 200, the system XFlow_Fairlane devised will serve you well.

Incidently, I am LogEFi on the Ford Explorer forum, and so my background has always been four wheel drive, log heads, and since 2011, Fox bodies. I love the Cologne V6's, but like the iron shallow deck "203" a whole lot more. Current ride is a Nissan Stagea AWD wagon, so I kind of know what a torque steering, too heavy, too big DOHC car is like. The Fox Mustang has the dynamics to match anything any other maker made. Its the simplicity of the in line six Fox I love...they are super reliable, and information is around to fix anything. Wiring was pretty average, as you are aware from your old 3.8 1983. But that just forces us all to understand the new electronic age, and how to avoid fires!

EFi is easy on the iron head. Just don't overthink it. More things add more things. If your gonna use MS, then copy Mike1157's MS2E system, and decide if you want to use TFi ingItion or EDIS6. Fords TFi operates as an ingtion system, and injection firing sequencer, eliminating the cam sequencer and crank trigger. A Port EFi 5.0 Mustang engine is Sequential injected, but has no crank trigger on the EECIV versions.

The Australian TFi bolts right on to your C8 block, and it should eliminate another step. EDSI6 requires a crank trigger, and Sequential Injection either a TFi unit as a injection sequencer. If you keep it MS2E, you'll get it going fast.

I like your car a lot!
 
Thanks for replys chad and xctacy, I appreciate all the help and info I can get here.

As much as I'd love to make this thing 4x4 it would be impossible to register it to street here, they need some submodel for converting from RWD to AWD and as you all know there isn't 4x4 Mustang. And with all these body modifications I need to stay with the 200 block, and hope no one mentions I have T5 trans and 8.8" rear...

I'm building turbo intake to my friends Honda CBR 600, he had 8 20lbs/hr injectors in it but we didn't have space for those extra injectors, and now when he is going bigger I thought I could use those small motorcycle injectors with log head. I've also got a set of 25lbs/hr Rochester injectors but they aren't tested and lots bigger than those jap injectors. I'm going to check how these sit on the log at weekend, and maybe upload some picks.
 
Once when i still had the body for that burned '84 I almost bought 4x4 2.9 Scorpio to make that sick winter pony, but for some reason I didn't do it??? :banghead:
 
"... there isn't 4x4 Mustang..."
mine's one. (take a peek @ my 'avatar' on right)
Either that or a 4 WD falcon,
just like the stang's a sporty falcon...
 
chad":2w93i4ez said:
"... there isn't 4x4 Mustang..."
mine's one. (take a peek @ my 'avatar' on right)
Either that or a 4 WD falcon,
just like the stang's a sporty falcon...

But try to tell that to the guy who does the inspections, and says that 93 Cobra can’t be compared to other Fox Mustangs... It just goes like this and I want this car to street.
 
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