Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

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rmcphearson
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Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #1 by rmcphearson » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:34 pm

My temp gauge would not come up past the low mark for the 6 months I've owned this thing. Last week I swapped the temp gauge with another and that didn't make a difference. So I swapped the sender. The gauge then came up close to the midway point. The next day it would not come up past the low point again, and now the engine is stumbling when over 2000 rpms and I have multiple coolant leaks suddenly from
1) The head gasket on the distributor side
2) One of the head bolts on the exhaust side
3) The radiator

What the heck happened? What should be my first move?

-Roland

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #2 by B RON CO » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:09 pm

Hi, it sounds like you have a blown head gasket. I can't imagine why it would be related to the sender and gauge. I'll ask if you checked the coolant level after you changed the sender. I would do a compression test. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #3 by rwbrooks50 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:45 pm

I am replacing my head gasket on my 73 Comet 250. The engine only has 14K original miles. Mine suddenly started over heating. There was sign of the gasket leaking on the drivers side of the block. I guess setting in a garage for almost 40 years and only 8K miles then driving on weekends, about 6K miles, is not good for the head gasket.

Hope the gasket is all that is wrong.

Rick

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #4 by ludwig » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:48 am

The I6 ALWAYS leaks on the drivers side. That is one of the standard features of the motor. That is no sign of a blown head gasket in and of itself. If you suddenly get coolant in the exhaust or lose power or it runs rough, then you probably have a BHG.

Check the exhaust. If white - coolant; if blue - oil; if black - fuel.
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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #5 by chad » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:15 am

Humm...new one on me Ludwig.
Like to hear more on that.
U say this is another ( care w/2 head bolts) anomaly even w/modern head gaskets?
Thanks~
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #6 by ludwig » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:40 am

Several years back a fellow who was in charge of fleet maintenance gave a disquisition on why the 200 leaked consistently on the driver's side. The short form was the uneven heating of the head due to the combined exhaust ports at 3 and 4, where the head grows larger as a result, and the coolant flow starving out on either end of the block.

His repair was to cut a half round channel in the mating surfaces of the block. Fill this with round rubber gasket rope, then use a conventional head gasket over that and torque to spec. Of course he had access to a milling shop and could cut the channel with a CNC or similar milling device. This would be very hard to free-hand with a dremel tool.

I don't remember if he stuck around for a while. But the post might be available in the archives. If you want to farm through all those hits that come up when you key-word search 'coolant leak.'
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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #7 by JackFish » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:07 am

A stuck thermostat can cause problems like that.
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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #8 by rmcphearson » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:42 pm

Thanks for the replies. It is burning coolant and running rough. I'm sure the head gasket is blown. Does anyone have a complete list of parts I will need to do this job? I know the obvious things I need but I'm guessing there are a few parts that are not obvious. I want to get everything at one time.

Thanks

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how bad a leak? burnt pistons, valves, need new head, H2O pump?

Post #9 by chad » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:23 pm

I'll just add "straight edge" 2 da list (2 ck for 'warpage' of head or block).
What could prts B?:
coolant, H2O, 3 gaskets, thermostat, thread goop (for pass, frt head bolt)
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #10 by rmcphearson » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:34 pm

The water pump is 2 months old. It ran fine today. Haven't even needed to add coolant yet. And yes, I replaced the coolant that was lost before I fired it up after replacing the sender.

These 3 gaskets?
1 head
2 exhaust manifold
3 timing cover

Great tip about gooping that head bolt. I think that's the one that's leaking.

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #11 by B RON CO » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:39 pm

Hi, you don't need to remove the exhaust manifold from the head, just the pipe from the manifold. You don't have to remove the timing chain cover. Good luck
B RON CO. Still workin' on it!

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Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly, probably not so suddenly

Post #12 by chad » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:10 am

"...These 3 gaskets?"
1: head
1: H2O pump
1: thermostat

smear that snot on pass, frnt head bolt threads as they often reach dwn into the H2O pump area. Some of us have hadda grind an eighth inch offa that bolt when building/during assembly as the impeller has hit it when spun by the Vbelt to pump water throughout out the 'jacket'.

"...ck for 'warpage' of head &/or block..."
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #13 by B RON CO » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:14 am

Hi, you don't have to remove the water pump or the thermostat. You do need a valve cover and a head gasket. I usually reuse the carb gasket. Good luck
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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #14 by chad » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:38 pm

B RON CO wrote:Hi, you don't have to remove the water pump or the thermostat. You do need a valve cover and a head gasket. I usually reuse the carb gasket. Good luck


This is almost a 'barn find' that wuz simply run:
"... setting in a garage for almost 40 years and only 8K miles then driving on weekends, about 6K miles, is not good for the head gasket. ..."

it needs a lill extra care.
May B I'm "way off"?
:?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #15 by B RON CO » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:34 pm

Hi Chad, you are not crazy. There are 2 questions from 2 different guys, combined into this post. MacPherson asked about his engine first, and Brooks jumped in the middle. Brooks should have is own post.
Good luck
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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #16 by chad » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:32 pm

B RON CO wrote:Hi Chad, you are not crazy. There are 2 questions from 2 different guys, combined into this post. MacPherson asked about his engine first, and Brooks jumped in the middle. Brooks should have is own post.
Good luck

Ahhh, we're pretty tolerant of jacks here, but...
when 1 steps in & asks a slightly different Q (or totally different) it duz throw a spanner in there.
Then again, I loose tack of the OP'n earlier answs, etc hopin around the net'n this site.
I think once I responded to a diesel truck Q in a motorcycle form...
:nono:
:shock:
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Usually its Ludwig 'ill pull me back from Pluto or (to Infinity &) Beyond !!! :nod:
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Last edited by chad on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #17 by rwbrooks50 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:07 pm

My comment was made to show there have been issues with coolant leaking from the driver side of the head and block. I did not ask any questions or for help.

Rick

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #18 by ludwig » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:53 pm

My comment was made to show there have been issues with coolant leaking from the driver side of the head and block. I did not ask any questions or for help.


Not a problem. The issues are related, just not the same. Good advice is never wasted.
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Multiples Suddenly!

Post #19 by chad » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:04 am

C ?!?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #20 by ludwig » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:35 pm

Chad, I would immediately pull you out of a Saturn, even if it was in good running condition!!
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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #21 by rmcphearson » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:35 pm

Ok, I'm going to get a complete engine gasket set since they are cheap and a new 180 degree thermostat. I'd like to get a temp/oil pressure/volts gauge pack to mount under the dash or in the radio hole. Now is a good time since I need to monitor engine temp closely. Can anyone recommend a cheap gauge cluster that has a vintage look?

I will check for a warped head and block.

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head re-do

Post #22 by chad » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:03 pm

rmcphearson wrote:I will check for a warped head and block.

yeah, just cuz its leakin...
Coulda been a poor gasket or gasket installation.
Ck em (head/block) both'n and follow proper procedure 4 the next gasket (scrapin, cleanin, ck 4 level, goop'n layin down the gasket) and head placement (not to rip or damage it, i.e., use 'locating pins') heat/H2O proof thread goop on the RF head bolt (ck on clearance on H2O pump impeller) etc, etc.
Same w/the thermostat/housing (or "H2O neck").

I had my OE radiator boiled cored, rodded, etc, painted, the mounting tabs re soldered for $60, so ck those leaks out...

Get any gage w/a needle - not just a ("it's too hot now") light.
Last edited by chad on Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #23 by Econoline » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:46 pm

Get a "high flow" thermostat
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #24 by B RON CO » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:24 am

Hi, I have the old Moon 3 gauge cluster on my Bronco. It is a complete kit. They are all over E BAY for $89.99. Good luck
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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #25 by rmcphearson » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:22 am

Ok, let me recap. My OEM temp gauge would only go up to 1/4 scale since I bought this car last year. At some point just after I installed a new sender the temp gauge went up to 1/2 once, the engine stumbled/struggled and developed several coolant leaks. Since that single episode it's been running normally- the OEM gauge goes to 1/4, no stumble/struggling, no coolant leaks.

Today I installed a new mechanical temp gauge. It indicates a temp of 120 while driving and goes up to 163 after shutting the engine off. That makes me think the OEM temp gauge was accurate. I'm taking this one step at a time so I can figure out what's going on before I start the major work. So, two questions:

1) Why is this engine running cool?

2) Is a 43 degree rise in temp after shutting the engine off normal?

-Roland

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #26 by bubba22349 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:26 pm

Your engine running cold is likely due to the thermostat your using. Try at least a 180 to 194. Yes Engines will get hotter after the engine is shut down. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
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I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #27 by woodbutcher » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:14 pm

:hmmm: Reason for heat spike when engine is shut off.Coolant no longer circulating.Block soaks up the coolant heat.Thus causing the temp spike.Very normal.Also,as suggested,check your thermostat
for at least 180 degree rating.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #28 by rmcphearson » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:43 pm

I installed a 170 thermostat yesterday. The temp spiked momentarily while idling to 200 and then quickly went down to 160. It now stays around 160-170 while driving and spikes to 180 after shutting off. I don't want to push my luck with a hotter stat. This engine pings under load and I guess a higher temp might make that even worse.

Thanks for the help! Now on to other issues...

-Roland

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #29 by ludwig » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:19 am

Those (non-critical) spikes after the engine warms up are due to a bunch of water finally making its way from the cooling jacket to the hose. Might be an air bubble that worked loose or the t-stat finally opens all the way and whoosh. That ping is either a timing issue or you need higher octane gas. A lean-burning engine runs hot. The running temp will settle down if you get your timing spot on.
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optimal motor temp 4 efficient operation

Post #30 by chad » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:58 pm

good luck wid what U saw as a problematic leak.

Now, bud-eye Ludwig brings up a good point. The vehicle is a system. One thing one place - effects another in nother place (air bubble, ping, thermost., timing, temp, octane). So,

"... installed a 170 thermostat yesterday..."
that means (ideally) the motor will try'n stay near 170*F (cuz it open @ that temp). My thought is optimal motor temp is higher, yet our carb is in an area that's pretty hot.

If U don't mind a thread hijac here? can we discuss thermostat, engine temp'n carb icing/boil? If not, it's OK with me to drop it all. U seem to be where U need to be with the leak?
Did you get what U need?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #31 by rmcphearson » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:27 am

Hijack away brother.

I haven't seen any leaks lately. I'm guessing that when I replaced the temp sender with a new temp sender a few months back the temp spiked, due to an air bubble or whatever, and that is what prompted the temporary leaks.

I am leery of going to a hotter stat right now for fear that the weak head gasket, radiator, and head bolt seal will blow.

I'm closer to the proper temp now than I was when I bought it last year. It was pinging when I got it. It also started idling rough lately and dying when idling. I think I now need to do a general tune up. I don't have a timing light or a vacuum gauge yet. I plan to borrow or buy them.

-Roland

"can we discuss thermostat, engine temp'n carb icing/boil?"

Yep, clue me in bro.

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #32 by chad » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:28 pm

rmcphearson wrote:Hijack away brother.
"can we discuss thermostat, engine temp'n carb icing/boil?"
Yep, clue me in bro.

We hada thread we never finished B4 on: "You can allow yer engine to get too cold AND too hot for best performance."
May get no further cuz this is tacked ona thread (only closely related) but I'll leave it out there as U've oked it 8)

* "The Air Pump" pullin our vehicles around do better colder (the air is denser, more power in the burn/explosin due to increased oxegen) but would it be best to get it (& the air comin in thru the intake/carb) as cold as possible? No. Carb icing is just the beginning of the "too cold" problem.

* I guess the only limit to "how hot?" would B 'same place', the carb (fuel boil & really expanded air/oxegene)). I'm not talkin bout 1K - 3K degrees when the metalurgy factors come in.

So we got a range. Most already know/understand that but what's optimal due U suppose. Performance (MPGs/pep) can hang in the balance. How much I have no idea.
:?:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #33 by rmcphearson » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:56 pm

I'm going to tac on a couple questions to this thread.

What spark plug should I use at my current 160-170 temp and what gap?

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #34 by bubba22349 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:00 pm

The warmer an engine can run the better it's performance and the economy it can achieve. The target for these old six'es is around 195 to 200 newer engines are designed to run even hotter in the 220 range. The stock heat range spark plugs or one step colder should work for you. The plug gap is determined by the type ignistion system you have and if it is stock. I see that you stated a few details of what year or model engine / car ect. that your working so on depending on if everything remains the factory stock parts. So if it still has a stock 1962 point type Distribitor in your 170 then the Ford factory plug gap for this year is .034 and this would be optimal. If you happened to have converted it to a DuraSpark II system then the spark gap is .044. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #35 by ludwig » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:00 am

x2 on bubba. The running temp should stabilize with a 180* t-stat. That is to say, this is the temp it OPENS at; not the operating temp. There have been many many threads here about getting the engine to cool consistently. Generally they come down to purging all the air and the right temperature T-stat.

Tacking on to what bubba wrote above, the warming plate between the carb and the intake manifold that is on many of the 200s not only warms the intake, it also is supposed to provide for a consistent temperature of the fuel mix coming into the log. Many, including me, simply by pass the carb plate and run the heater hoses to the firewall. While this doesn't make much difference in SoCal, where I used to live, it does make a difference in Manitoba or Fairbanks.

Unless you are quite sure that you have found/solved the problems, you might want to make sure that all the air is gone from the system. Typically, you would park on a slight upgrade with the radiator higher than the rear of the car and let the engine warm up from a cold start. Leave the radiator cap off and let the engine run. You will see no movement of coolant in the radiator, then the water will start to move. Often all at once as the coolant finally gets to the target temp. There will be rise in coolant temp just before this point, the it will fall again as cool water enters the jacket.

Let the engine idle for a while longer, until the coolant level in the radiator stops rising and falling, at about 1/2 to 3/4 inch below the lip of the filler. At this point, you cap it and leave it. Best bet, with a new cap that keeps the coolant in place.

Most of us have had similar problems and this technique is pretty much the optimum.
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rmcphearson
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Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:23 pm

Re: Multiple Coolant Leaks Suddenly!

Post #36 by rmcphearson » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:06 pm

Ok. I thought briefly about pushing my luck with a hotter stat, but today I noticed coolant seeping from the head gasket on the drivers side, so I'm going to leave the 170 stat in for now until I can schedule the head gasket change.

Thanks everyone.

-Roland

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