The Legend of Dyno #2A

In the previous post we specified the head to run to 6500 rpm using a mechanical lifter cam with an approximate .550” valve lift.
Previous CI heads used the standard small six 4.260” long 5/16” stem valves with an installed spring height of 1.600”
Since there are no other length valves available near that spec I suspect the new heads will have the same valves with the possible exception of a 1.80” intake instead of the 1.84”.

In order to run 6500 rpm with .550 lift, the spring seat pressure needs to be at least 110 lbs with a spring rate of 400 lbs/in.
A spring with that rate needs a hardened steel locator under it to prevent damage to the aluminum head surface and are typically .060” to .062” thick.

If the .060” thickness is subtracted from the available 1.600” retainer height, that leaves a 1.540” installed spring height.
If the valve lift is .550” and another .050” margin is needed before spring coil bind for a total of .600", then the spring must have a 1.540” - .600” or .940” coil bind height.
We are now looking for a spring with a 1.540” installed height with an installed pressure of approximately 110 lbs, spring rate about 400 lbs/in and a coil bind height of .940” max.
I couldn’t find anything close so I called SI and they confirmed my findings.
They are also the valve and guide suppliers for the aluminum head and are familiar with the problem.

One of the solutions is to get a custom valve. You need an installed height of at least 1.700” to find a variety of springs that will work for high lift and rpm applications so the minimum valve length needs to be the stock 4.260” plus the difference between 1.540” and 1.700” or .160” which is a 4.420” minimum valve length.
Manley and SI are the only valve companies that will do a single custom set run. Manleys price is $32.10 per valve.

One possible less expensive solution is to use the GM 3.8 V6 valves, shorten the valve stem, recut the keeper groove and use lash caps.

The new heads are being completed at a different shop than the original CI heads.
My suggestion is to see if a bare head can be purchased and finish the head at a trusted performance shop using the longer valves, the correct springs, retainers, locators and shimmed for the proper installed spring height. Viton seals included.

You will want to use the 1.65 ratio Yella Terra adjustable roller rockers.
The base plate will need to shimmed up to get the geometry correct with the longer valves.
Longer pushrods will also be needed.

In summary: The rpm of the valve train for this head has been limited by the lack of valve spring pressure due to the short valve length which limits the selection of valves springs.
This is one of the reasons why the full power potential of the small six aluminum head has not been utilized.

Other insights?
Comments?
 
I hashed this out with Mike years ago. I told him then to install longer valves. The head will flow up to .600" He just wanted to make it compatible to the existing components.
Yes you will need a valve spring with close to 135# seat pressure & 350# open. I just hope the small diameter camshaft can withstand that pressure.
I ran many cams in a small block chevy with those pressures. Just had to break in the camshaft per the book & have full roller rocker arms.
Can you notice the difference compared to a hydraulic camshaft? Night & day the solid lifter camshaft probably added 50HP over the best hydraulic camshaft. Plus it needed less duration on the seat the low end power was much better.
 
I would never run a hyd. cam on a one valve cover performance engine...If you have to adjust it a lot, it is telling you that something is wrong and to fix it..Easy to set up, none of that is it pumped up , down, what in world is the right push rod length, how do I degree it when it leaks down throwing off the numbers.
There is a reason that they make you use an explosion proof bell housing if you run a solid lifter cam, it is because the solid cam will rev to the moon..Yes it performs better.
 
Wow, thank you all as this is becoming so much more than I expected from a knoweldge standpoint and we are talking about building something that is truly unique. Luckily I have the money and insanity for this, though I may fall short on the patience. At the end of the day I feel I need to ask one of the original questions - Is the juice worth the squeeze and would the vehicle be drivable as a weekend toy or with this build design does it become restricted to high rev drag applications only?
 
SydneytheMustang":4b54usv6 said:
Is the juice worth the squeeze and would the vehicle be drivable as a weekend toy or with this build design does it become restricted to high rev drag applications only?
The answer requires some "reading between the lines" on previous posts.

A high reving engine is not the problem. The stock 3.6 six in my 2013 van doesn't start to pull till 3700 rpm and makes 283 hp (net) at 6400.
The problem is how well it behaves at low rpm.

The discussion in the middle of post #20 and Bill's remarks at the end of post #23 was about valve overlap and the effects on drivability.
The Review:
A 200 six that has a cam profile where the .050" valve overlap is not much greater than zero will idle with some lope but will still smooth out at an early enough rpm for good street response.
One way to minimize overlap in this case is to have a wide Lobe Separation Angle (LSA) of not less than 112 degrees.

Going to a high lift solid lifter cam provides a faster opening and closing ramp rate with more duration at midlift so power can be produced with a shorter .050" duration which is more street friendly.
This can't be done with the present assembled aluminum head because the short valves will not allow a tall enough valve spring that has the spring rate or compression distance to work with a high lift cam at the high rpms needed to make a lot of horsepower.

The second problem with the Dyno #2A that Bill also pointed out was the ignition timing was not right.
As cam overlap is increased so must the initial timing be increased.
In the #2A engine a stock distributor was installed right out of the box without re-curving the mechanical advance.

An All Out engine build using a ported CI aluminum head has the potential to make 400+ HP.
We are not asking for anything close to that.

I'm hoping all of this this makes sense? If not please ask more questions.
If you want to pursue this we are willing to help.
However getting the head and valve train set-up correctly will require a lot of patience on your part.

The engine will also need aftermarket "H" beam Toyota 1JZ-GTE connecting rods with custom pistons from AutoTec.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Connecting-Rod ... 1Q&vxp=mtr
 
I've put in a request to Matt to deliver the head unfinished once the valve shrouding issue was rectified by the machine shop. This was February 6th and I haven't heard anything since Feb 19th and the shop is closed now till the 11th. Not trying to knock on Matt and VI but it has become awfully frustrating since I paid in full for this last July.

I have an amazing engine builder near me here in Atlanta, Frank Grimes, who has agreed to help out with machining and other needs but as The Joker said, "if you're good at something, never do it for free" so locking down scheduling and final cost will be discussed once I have the head in hand and we can bring the plan to development. I have a rebuilt 4100 with the smaller venturi and 6-2 header ready to go, Bill will provide the correct curved ignition once final build specs are lined up and I've started looking around at solid lifter cam kits.

In the mean time I'm wondering if I'll need a TC with the higher RPMs and if forged H beam rods and forged pistons are an absolute necessity or if the cast parts suffice. What are the tolerances of I beam rods and cast pistons? I was planning to grab the Ford 2.5L flat top pistons in .040 over and I can have all six for about $80 bucks.
 
If the stock rods have the beams polished and shot peened, and they are resized with ARP bolts they will probably be OK.
You can also have them cryogen treated for extra insurance.

According to my calculations if the stocks rods are 4.715" long, 3.126" stroke and a deck height of 7.808", and the 2.5l pistons have a CD of 1.556" then the pistons will stick out above the block deck by .026"

A flat top piston at zero deck along with a 50cc chamber in the head yields a 10.7 compression ratio which is 1 point too high for the range of cam durations you will be looking at.
You would need a piston with an 8cc dish to get near the correct compression ratio.

You will need to finish the head to get the combustion chamber volume and also know the cam specs in order to figure the compression ratio.
Then the piston specs can be finalized.
The piston selection should always be last.
 
Ford 2.5L flat top pistons have one negative feature, the piston pin is offset .090". The dished piston is .060".
The pin offset help low end, but hurts top end unless you reverse them. You might want to get some pistons with no offset?? Your choice.
 
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