1961 144 vs '68 200cid

I'm complaining doing a swap from a 144 to a 200cid in my Falcon. The used engine I'm considering is missing the flywheel. Will my 144 fw fit the 68 200? Tried using the search feature but came up dry. Any good threads on making this swap?? Can a 3.03 3spd trans be fitted to the older style 2.77 bell housing?

Tnx
Terry

Short answer is no, and probably not.

'61 144 is a 4 main bearing crank, and a 8.5" clutch.

'68 200 is a 7 main bearing crank, and a 8.5" or 9" clutch depending on early or later production dates.

Sizes aside, I believe the balance of the flywheel would also be different for 4 or 7 mains, as is the front dampener crank pulley.

A 3.03 won't bolt to a standard 2.77 bell, only to a '63 Econoline bell, and the 2.77 bell won't bolt to a '68 200 block unless it is a 'dual bolt pattern" block.

I've got a '63 170 mated to a 3.03 with an Econoline bell in my '62 Ranchero.

Block and clutch tech article : http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technica ... tch-up.htm

Hi, although I do not know the exact by the book answer, I do know many 200s are drilled for the large and small bell housings. If your old bell housing bolts on to the new block you have a way forward.
If you want the later 3.03 tranny I think you need all the later engine, bell, tranny parts together.
Get the Ford Falcon Performance Handbook to learn what will work on this project.
Good luck

196158A":3lf17dt1 said:

I'm complaining doing a swap from a 144 to a 200cid in my Falcon. The used engine I'm considering is missing the flywheel. Will my 144 fw fit the 68 200? Tried using the search feature but came up dry. Any good threads on making this swap?? Can a 3.03 3spd trans be fitted to the older style 2.77 bell housing?

Tnx
Terry

Click to expand...

All Ford inline six cylinder flywheels and crankshaft dampeners are Zero imbalance! Yes the 144 8.5 inch dog dish / clutch flywheel will work on a 200 engine as long as the block is an early single pattern (i.e. a small bell housing block 1963 to 64, or a duel bolt patern block 1965 to 68) so that 8.5 inch / clutch flywheel has the correct matching 2.77 bell housing used with it. All later model blocks after 1968 are only used the larger 3.03 bell housings with its matching larger 9 inch clutch / flywheel. Were all the later blocks after 1968 until 200 engine production ended in early 1980's (and still with a high mount starter) are all drilled for both the small and large patterns or with only the larger bell housing pattern is what I wonder about. All 2.77 trans bell housings are only going to bolt up to the smaller block bolt pattern to be used with a 2.77 trans, so currently there isn't a way that a 3.03 trans can be fitted to the 2.77 bell housing. Someone would need to spend the time to fabricate a custom adapter from scratch to adapt a 3.03 to 2.77.

Adistional notes there is a T5 five speed adapter plate made to mate up with the 2.77 bel housing as well as another that's made to fit T5's to the 3.03 bell housings. And as FrozenRabbit & Econoline posted (great pictures) this is the exception that allows the better 3.03 trans to bolt up to a small or duel pattern inline blocks using the small 8.5 inch dog dish clutch / flywheel with that early Econoline bell housing. This also allows a 200 engine to fit more easily into the very early 1960 to 61 Falcons & Comets without as much firewall trans tunnel hacking or hammering needing to be done. Good luck Edited

Thanks for the speedy replies!
So got to check out back of the block to see what it will mate up to. It has the rest of the drivetrain w/it but I'm not sure if I have the skills and equipment to do the fab work. Think I'd rather stick w/the 2.77 parts. Might be able to wack off a few $$ if I don't need all the other dt parts. Obtw pilot bearing the same size?

Cheers
Terry

What bubba said. But, I don't think it matters if it's a dual pattern block if you use the 8.5" clutch and bell, only if you go to a 9". Iow, the single pattern block is the small pattern and if you use your 144 flywheel and clutch, it won't matter. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sure bubba or someone else will correct me. I thought the single pattern blocks were the early blocks and they were small pattern and all later blocks are dual pattern except the 80's low mount blocks that are an entirely different partial sbf.

Yes you can use your flywheel and clutch. And yes, you can mate a 3.03 to a small pattern block. I have a spare Econoline small pattern bellhousing for a 3.03. And the 3.03 it's bolted to, but it's a truck style big bearing, short tailpiece that is Econoline specific with a trans hanger molded into it. Not sure if the Falcon can use the econo bell, but I don't see why not. If not hopefully someone knows why.

If you can get them to bolt up to each other, it's gonna take a BFH or a cut and weld job on the transmission tunnel to get it in the car.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/855/kw2i.jpg[/image]

There's the '64 3.03 bellhousing

Isn't the balance between a 4 main and a 7 main different?

The crank dampeners are certainly different between my '63 170 4 main, and '65 200 7 main blocks.

No by their design all Inline Ford six engines are Zero imbalance, the number of mains has no bearing on the Flywheel or Dampner balance! For the case of this discussion of interchangeability of flywheels any of the 8.5 inch flywheels used with a 2.77 bell housing weither it's from a 144, 170, or an early 200 engine can be swapped and bolted onto the newer 200's just as long as they are also used with a small pattern bell housing

Yes there are severial different types of crankshaft Dampners and they may or may not directly interchange depending on the planed use, yet they are also zero imbalance. Edited

Econoline":f6r1a0vc said:

What bubba said. But, I don't think it matters if it's a dual pattern block if you use the 8.5" clutch and bell, only if you go to a 9". Iow, the single pattern block is the small pattern and if you use your 144 flywheel and clutch, it won't matter. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sure bubba or someone else will correct me. I thought the single pattern blocks were the early blocks and they were small pattern and all later blocks are dual pattern except the 80's low mount blocks that are an entirely different partial sbf.

Yes you can use your flywheel and clutch. And yes, you can mate a 3.03 to a small pattern block. I have a spare Econoline small pattern bellhousing for a 3.03. And the 3.03 it's bolted to, but it's a truck style big bearing, short tailpiece that is Econoline specific with a trans hanger molded into it. Not sure if the Falcon can use the econo bell, but I don't see why not. If not hopefully someone knows why.

Click to expand...

Econoline, yes essentially your post is right & true (I have also edited some of my above post for a little better clarity), you are correct for this swap using the small bell and 8.5 flywheel it's going to work fine. The only part though that I have wondered about is if all the small block 200 Six'es built from 1969 to 1983 (and also 170's from 1969 to 1971) were still all factory drilled with the duel bolt pattern or not. In any case with a small amount of effort even if they aren't drilled for the small pattern they can probally be drilled and tapped for the smaller bell housing bolt pattern if someone needed that bolt pattern for a swap into an early model chassis. Since these later model engines when used with a manual trans from the factory were only using the larger bell housing bolt pattern with its bigger 9 inch clutch / flywheel, and a 3.03 trans combo (plus still the high monunt starter). The exception to all this is as you stated is for the other much rarer 1980 to 1983 200 blocks (thanks to our buddy Xctasy and others on this research) with a low mount starter and the partial 2/3 of a SBF V8 bell housing pattern. Factory flywheels and bell housings for these blocks are harder to find (the low mount starter) but of course the SBF 5.0 T5 bell housings can be adapted fairly easy with a minor amount of effort. Good luck Edited

Got a chance to see a pic of the back of the block and it does have the holes for both styles of bell housings. So it appears I'm in good shape. I'll pose the question I asked before but didn't word it well, are there any threads on the forum on doing the 144/170 to 200cid swap? Have had the Falcon for abt 30yrs but am a bit of a nube when it come to what parts are interchangeable and such.
Tnx
Terry

Ok so that 200 engine is going to be be a direct bolt in swap for the 144 (also it would be for a 170 too) onto your stock engine mounts. Giving you quite a big performance boost over the old 144 engine for your efforts. There will be some minor adapting (but it's well worth the effort) when using the newer and better 1968 engines accessory's. I.E. The Carburetor, Distribitor, Alternator type charging system etc. The Falcon Performace Handbook is a big help in this regard and will save you a lot of time in learning about these things. Though its not an exact match to your proposed swap (it is a 1964 1/2 170 Mustang to a 1968 200 see the below link) this will likely offer you some info on parts for your swap. Use our sites search function to find many more. Good luck on your swap

170 to 200 swap
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=77911&p=600202&hilit=200+swap#p600202

Tnx for the link. Had some good points I had thought of. Ill look into pick up the book.

Terry

So dose the 200 your looking at come with the 3.03 trans and bell housing too? If it dose that is also a great upgrade over using a 2.77 trans. In FrozenRabbit's above post with pictures he shows you how how you can still use a 3.03 trans with your 8.5 inch flywheel and be able to fit them into your 1961 Falcon. Good luck

U Go Terry !!
Kinda the same - I've had mine since '83'n am upgradin (frm forest'n farm rig to daughter's street machine).

Just 1 thing to add @ this point - ck above (thoroughly) 'tech archive' at the big blue box / crossed tools ! while U wait 4 'the Handbook' from Matt at vintage inlines dot com.
BTW: congrats on the '68 200 - you'll C Y I post that when U cover the 2 sources of info. Com'on back when U understand these rigs, plenty of opinions here.

Even with a 8.5" inch set up, you'll still have to modify the trans tunnel. 3.03 is wider, and the shift arms stick out farther than a 2.77.

Chad, Tnx for the encouragement and link. Lots interesting read there.
Frozen, Am keeping simple going w/the old 2.77 trans so no worries retrofitting bh,firewall, trans support, and drive shaft.

The engine should be here in a couple of weeks as the seller thankfully was kind enough to deliver it to my door next time he's out my way. About a 2 1/2 hour drive one way from where he's located. Ordered the book and will be learning probably more than I ever wanted to know abt Falcon and I6's. Here's a pic of the old guy back a few yrs ago. Unfortunately it's been sitting in my garage for the 3 yrs or so. Both of us have some heath issues so we haven't been on the road. #ttps://fordsix.com/posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=78277#

Terry

That is a really great looking Falcon.

I have are friends @ Rustoleum to thank! A coulpe of yrs ago I found a decent set of bumpers. Those are the old beat ones.

Terry