Order of execution on a build

Cday07

Active member
Hello everyone!

I’ve been going through a lot of topics on builds and am currently sitting at a crossroads on my own build. I have an 65 Mustang with a 200 motor, C4 auto, 7.25” rear end, and power brakes with a front disc conversion. I have been driving my restoration for about a year now (3k miles since I “finished”) and have been loving everything about it, especially how it stops on a dime and gives you 9 cents change. But I’m developing a deep desire to give it the get up and go that it deserves.

I have a budget of about $4,000-$5,000 for the next phase of the build. My list of what I want to do seems contingent on whether I want to do a tri-carb setup or a turbo (I’m having difficulty finding someone who has done both, so please correct me if I’m wrong). Otherwise, Exhaust will be converted over to dual exhaust, cylinders bored maybe 30 over, new pistons, new cam, new head (possibly sourcing a 250 head for the larger valves as I believe this will be cheaper than doing an extensive port job on the stock 200 head). I have no intention of adding AC or Power Steering. Would anybody like to provide any advice on maybe what order I should do these upgrades in? I would like to still be able to drive the car in between steps (so I can notice the performance changes with each step). I would appreciate everyone’s thoughts, tips, and tricks. I’ve tossed in a picture of my car and motor as well. Thank you guys!
 

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Howdy cDay:

And welcome to The Forum. Yes, it is that good. First off- what a beautiful car!!!! You've done a beautiful job on the "Stang" so far. On planning for the engine mods- a few things to consider- The cam selection and the compression ratio will depend on whether or not you want to stay NA (Naturally Aspirated) or turbo. Each take a somewhat specific plan depending on which way you choose. In addition to budget consider the time your car will be down. I like to minimize down time.

One item that you can start working on immediately while continue to drive your car is finding and beginning on a 1978 and later head. After 1978 all 200 and 250 heads are identical. Stripping, cleaning and prepping the head will be the same for NA or turbo. All '78 and later heads will have the largest valves @1.75" intake and 1.38" exhaust. You may want to consider upgrading the exhaust valve to 1.50". I'd recommend the 1.50" exhaust valves. You mentioned porting- I'd recommend spending most of your porting time on the exhaust. Also on polishing the combustion chambers. We can talk about intake porting once you decide on the intake. Valve train- springs, lifters, retainers and rocker arms will go hand-in-hand with the cam you choose.

While tri-power and turbo are very cool, don't overlook the option of adapting a wide base two barrel. It would be much simpler to build, find help and maintain. Wide base two barrels come in a good range of sizes and could even be turbo charged. Check out the dyno archives on this forum.

Next, I'd recommend tackling an ignition upgrade. Upgrading from your current Load-o-Mati with vacuum only advance to an electronic system will be a complement to your engine now and then recurved to optimize your new performance engine. It can be done on your stock engine with only a few adaptations. I'd recommend the FoMoCo DuraSpark II system which includes distributor, coil, module, plug wires and wiring harness. Some like the GM HEI ignition system called DUI. The DUI system is much bigger in the engine bay and more expensive. Do your homework and it's your choice. In either case Bill (aka wsaIII) will be along shortly to offer his advice. When it comes to recurve and specifics, he's the man.

This ignition will not be a perfect match to your stock Autolite 1100 carb but it can be made to work for the short term.

The head project and the ignition project could be done as steps while planning continues.

That should get you started with your plan. Keep us updated on your thoughts an ideas. We love to share.

Again, Welcome.

Adios, David
 
David,

Thank you for compliment and in depth response! I’ll definitely look into the dyno information. I initially was considering a 2v carb setup, but it seems counterintuitive to me that it would solve the rich/lean issues that afflict cylinders 3/4 and 1/2/5/6, respectively (again, please correct me if I’m wrong). If I were to go the route of a single carb setup, be it a 2v or 4v, would it be worth my time/money to just go straight for the aluminum CI setup for $2k? I’ve been looking on that site for a few months and the comparisons numbers eye popping to say the least.

Thanks, Chris
 
"... Check out the dyno archives on this forum..."
C big blue box above @ crossed screw driver/wrench ('tech archive') if
not already visiting.
Plez state budget (or HP/tq interest) for more accurate responses. Even application or 'end goal' would assist...
A 200 has alot of variability.
 
Thanks Chad. I should have made some other parameters known as a point of information. My hp goal is in the mid 200s ballpark. But I want to pour on the coals with the torque and get in the realm of 360-425 ft lbs.
 
ck 'tech archive' above (big blue box) under the Oz 2v head or CI alu head. A dyno expectation can B found at the below link.

ci/DynoRoom-2.html

there's some threads on here bout the motorcycle carbs (I like 6), 3 Weber DOCE, etc
 
Cday07":1z62wupi said:
Thanks Chad. I should have made some other parameters known as a point of information. My hp goal is in the mid 200s ballpark. But I want to pour on the coals with the torque and get in the realm of 360-425 ft lbs.

On a tri power with a Turbo “First Fox” was thinking about building one, I don’t know how far he got on his project. I do believe that it’s very doable if you have the skills or know someone to help you do some of the fabrication work. For instance on a blow through system the carb hat would be a custom built part, for a draw through 3 carbs would be a bit easier still those parts would be one off custom for the build.

Looks to me like your are heading for a Turbo build with those stated power requirements. Yes that’s sure a great looking Mustang, good luck (y) :nod:
 
Chris, nice looking ride. As David stated the GM design HEI is an easy hookup. If you have power steering it will not clear the pump.
Don't confuse a real HEI to the DUI. The DUI is a poor design, its main housing is a 2 piece deal. The result is oil starvation of the distributor shaft & they have had other problems.
I sell the real HEI design with a one piece housing recurved for you application. The DUI just has a generic curve. Check the small six for sale section of the forum & take a look.
The DS11 is really better than the HEI, but requires a module & low primary resistance coil.
Best of luck on your build.
 
Couple of updates on the car. Got a new distributor from Bill and it woke the engine up a good amount. Had to replace the exhaust manifold gasket (blew out at cylinder 1 for the 2nd time in just over 18 months).

I’m realizing the planning phase is getting a lot more in depth (who would’ve thought?), but my next question is about building the motor for forced induction. I came across and article regarding intercooled superchargers and now am very intrigued by doing a centrifugal supercharger over a turbo (although the cost may keep me in the turbo camp) as I can get the motor to 275 HP from 175 NA on 8.2 PSI if I run an intercooled SC. I’m already planning out the supporting systems (and they seem rather straight forward), but what about forged internals? I believe all internals were cast back in 65. How much boost could cast internals withstand and still be reliable? Looking at numbers, I’m initially thinking in the ballpark of 8-10 psi. It’s currently running a CR of 8.7. With those 2 variables, the compression ratio would increase to approximately 13.5 (8 PSI) to 14.7 (10 PSI). Every hot rod article and outside source says go forged no matter what, but I’ve heard of some people having success with cast. The car is going to be 99% street and have no real intention of ever pushing it beyond 6000 rpms (I even think that’s a high number).

Also, if you or anyone you know has a turbo with a dual exhaust setup, could you please PM a picture of it so I can see the setup? I can’t quite wrap my head around how it would look and google isn’t reliable enough. Thanks!!
 
Cday07":29jowkg2 said:
Couple of updates on the car. Got a new distributor from Bill and it woke the engine up a good amount. Had to replace the exhaust manifold gasket (blew out at cylinder 1 for the 2nd time in just over 18 months).

I’m realizing the planning phase is getting a lot more in depth (who would’ve thought?), but my next question is about building the motor for forced induction. I came across and article regarding intercooled superchargers and now am very intrigued by doing a centrifugal supercharger over a turbo (although the cost may keep me in the turbo camp) as I can get the motor to 275 HP from 175 NA on 8.2 PSI if I run an intercooled SC. I’m already planning out the supporting systems (and they seem rather straight forward), but what about forged internals? I believe all internals were cast back in 65. How much boost could cast internals withstand and still be reliable? Looking at numbers, I’m initially thinking in the ballpark of 8-10 psi. It’s currently running a CR of 8.7. With those 2 variables, the compression ratio would increase to approximately 13.5 (8 PSI) to 14.7 (10 PSI). Every hot rod article and outside source says go forged no matter what, but I’ve heard of some people having success with cast. The car is going to be 99% street and have no real intention of ever pushing it beyond 6000 rpms (I even think that’s a high number).

Also, if you or anyone you know has a turbo with a dual exhaust setup, could you please PM a picture of it so I can see the setup? I can’t quite wrap my head around how it would look and google isn’t reliable enough. Thanks!!

:unsure: That's great that you are spending time on planing your build! Coming up with a good plan first is the best way of getting good results and will save you money too. The Connecting Rods in your 1965 200 are Forged, the block crank and rods will easily handle 7,000 + RPM when properly prepped so 6,000 RPM's gives you a good safety margin. For that power level with either a Turbo or Supercharged build I think you will be better off forgetting the cast Pistons. I would go with a good set of custom Forged Pistons, fully prepped and rebuilt rods with ARP bolts, polished beams and weight matched, roller timing chain set, plus a custom ground cam when you decide the rest of your combo. Good luck on your build up (y) :nod:
 
Update as of 4/23:

Head gasket blew out on the freeway on the way to work (third head gasket in 18 months). I could tell something wasn’t right because I couldn’t be wrong on my install method three consecutive times. Dropped the head off at a machine shop where they found that the head is warping as you get back towards 4/5/6. But, there’s just enough meat left to resurface it one last time ($170). It also needs new seals, which got quoted at about $200.

I found a rebuilt 78 250 CI head with a three angle valve job, ready for install (new springs, guides, and seals) for $390 plus shipping (saves me $200 for a valve job). The head will have to be milled to keep the chambers the same size (the 250 is 62 CCs and needs to get to 52 CC, IIRC). For the moment I’m considering just running a rebuilt carter 1 bbl carb ($100) that fits the intake while I get some additional funds to do a 2 bbl Weber swap. My out of pocket cost difference is about $720 for the 250 versus $400 to give the stock 200 one last dance. My budget is tight, but not to the point where $300 is an unreasonable bump in cost.

In my position, which route would you go? I’m thinking about running a 250 head long term until I can pull the trigger on the aluminum, but that may be a few years off still.

Thanks for any input!
- Chris
 
I would go with the 1978 head this will also improve you performance some right now. Plus when or if you later decide to go with the Aluminum head you can then resell that 78 head quite easy and for a decent amount again. Good luck (y) :nod:
 
In my preference, a real 2bbl will add a lot more fun than the weber. I was having carb problems with my autolite 2100 i had on mine so i swapped the weber back on, and the power difference is insane! I can barely chirp the tires with the weber, i can straight up peel the tires with the 2100. Especially with the large log, I'd go with a real 2bbl like an autolite or holley 350.

Good luck,
Ryan
 
StarDiero75":635ny1bf said:
In my preference, a real 2bbl will add a lot more fun than the weber. I was having carb problems with my autolite 2100 i had on mine so i swapped the weber back on, and the power difference is insane! I can barely chirp the tires with the weber, i can straight up peel the tires with the 2100. Especially with the large log, I'd go with a real 2bbl like an autolite or holley 350.

Good luck,
Ryan

What issues did you run into with the 2100? I’ve considered them, but have yet to dig far into the pros/cons of each. Do you have to do an electric fuel pump/fuel pressure regulator with the 2100 as well?
 
possibly look 2 ur ign 1st?

U say "HEI" in ur sig...I scrolled up to the under hood pic. Is this an HEI/DSII hybrid
(a top rated mod to alota us here)? I C no HEI dissy...

Again, I like ur idea abt a staged build. Drive while moding incrementally toward more'n more performance. David'n
Dennis did a great job w/this approach in The Handbook (have U looked?) !
 
Cday07":4qstby01 said:
StarDiero75":4qstby01 said:
In my preference, a real 2bbl will add a lot more fun than the weber. I was having carb problems with my autolite 2100 i had on mine so i swapped the weber back on, and the power difference is insane! I can barely chirp the tires with the weber, i can straight up peel the tires with the 2100. Especially with the large log, I'd go with a real 2bbl like an autolite or holley 350.

Good luck,
Ryan

What issues did you run into with the 2100? I’ve considered them, but have yet to dig far into the pros/cons of each. Do you have to do an electric fuel pump/fuel pressure regulator with the 2100 as well?
The problem with mine is that i got it off ebay and slapped it on the car. I shoulda gone through and rebuilt it. I had vacuum leak problems. With those leaks it ran really really lean, and so I'm not blowing up my engine so i swapped the weber back on while i get the 2100 ready.
I have a mechanical fuel pump. The only thing special i did was go to a throttle cable setup instead of mechanical linkage.

If you're looking for more power the 2100 is the way to go. If you want gas mileage go with the weber. But to me the power ain't worth the mileage difference. Lol

Also, i felt i got a much smoother idle with the 2100 than the weber. And that was with vacuum leaks.

Good luck,
Ryan
 
Thanks for the response Ryan. If I bought one off eBay, I was going to go the route of rebuilding it (does t seem overly complicated) and is cheaper than buying one through champion carbs. Did you mount yours with the 2 bbl to 1 bbl adaptor or machine the intake to accept a 2 bbl?

If the new head is already getting milled to meet the CC needs of the 200, I figure I can kill 2 birds with one stone and have the intake machined for a 2 bbl. I’m just not sure what that finished product looks like. By that I mean does a mounting plate get welded to the log intake? Or are mounting holes just drilled, tapped, and studs installed after the opening has been widened? Want to save myself the labor of potentially pulling the head down the road for one extra step of work.

Thanks, Chris
 
Cday07":3hjzioj2 said:
Thanks for the response Ryan. If I bought one off eBay, I was going to go the route of rebuilding it (does t seem overly complicated) and is cheaper than buying one through champion carbs. Did you mount yours with the 2 bbl to 1 bbl adaptor or machine the intake to accept a 2 bbl?

If the new head is already getting milled to meet the CC needs of the 200, I figure I can kill 2 birds with one stone and have the intake machined for a 2 bbl. I’m just not sure what that finished product looks like. By that I mean does a mounting plate get welded to the log intake? Or are mounting holes just drilled, tapped, and studs installed after the opening has been widened? Want to save myself the labor of potentially pulling the head down the road for one extra step of work.

Thanks, Chris
I used an adapter from Vintage Inlines that does the 2-1 for the small log. But I'm also running an engine with 200 psi cranking pressure so it takes it a little better than a stock one.

I do have a 1980 200 hex head I'm about to start milling for the direct mount 2V. I'll also be making an aluminum adapter for the 2100. I plan to drill and tap, then have allen key cap screws to hold it down. I'll have to make my own gasket for that.

I bought the 2100 since i planned on using it on the 1980 head, so thats why i bought the 2-1 adapter so i could use the carb in the meantime, then just swap it to the new head when thats ready.

Here are a few pics of what I'll be doing to mine. Sorry about the quality but these are all i could find on the internet. I added the 3x2 setup pic just b/c its neat.
 

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I glanced right past the 2V conversion article in the tech archives.

It looks like I’ll have them mill it for the Autolite 2 bbl bracket and install a spacer to help the carb clear the VC. The only change from now is that it seems like I’ll be using 3 gasket instead of 2 (between bracket/head,bracket/spacer, and spacer/carb).

Paired with an HEI, this should make it a lot more exciting to drive.
 
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