Cam or higher ratio rockers?

StarDiero75

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Howdy guys,

I'm in the process of getting my 2V head ready still and started thinking, should I put a new cam in it when i do this or just go to a 1.6 rocker setup?

What i currently have and will have with the 2V head on:

Dual outlet VI headers
1.5 exhaust valves
1.75 intake
Will get HEI dizzy recurved
1.08 Autolite 2100
4cyl WC T5 (4.03 first and .81 OD)
2.8 8" rear
9.1:1 Static or whatever i can run on 87 octane (College kid can't afford premium)

Would you all recommend replacing the cam or doing the rockers? If i do the cam, I'll do the dual roller VI timing chain. Or, should i do both? This is a street driven, daily car that I'm looking to get the most power from, but keep or increase mileage as much as possible and have a good idle. I will sacrifice a little mileage though for power hehe.

Let me know what you all think, I have plenty of time to figure this out, I wouldn't be getting the head on till at least the end of summer.

Thanks,
Ryan
 
I would for sure check the condition of the timing set while you have it that far apart. I can't comment on the other stuff other than to say if you want to swap the cam, the time to do it is when the head is off but you may have to either at least partially pull the motor or dismantle the grill to get it out and in. And don't wait until the last minute to decide on a cam swap, b/c it can take a while to get the cam ground and to your door once you order and are put enque if the cam you want isn't laying on a shelf.
 
I'm going to say you would see better gains taking a step up with a nice street cam. I've considered a cam swap myself. Rocker arms are quite pricey and they won't increase the duration as much as the cam will. I've been trying to do as much reading through previous posts to figure out which manufacturer to go with. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the Clay Smith and Schneider cams seem to be held in high regard around here. You will take better advantage of the head work and compression with a step up in camshaft.....
 
Ryan, if you want a smooth idle you best call Jerry @ Schneider cams. He will advise a cam with shorter intake duration & higher lift, with at least a 112 L/C.
Make sure you get the valve springs & retainers from him. Don't use the stock ford junk.
How many cc's are in the combustion chambers???? Bill
 
Cam, and then down the road you could always change the rockers to fine tune how you felt it would work best.
 
Econoline":172sxd2i said:
I would for sure check the condition of the timing set while you have it that far apart. I can't comment on the other stuff other than to say if you want to swap the cam, the time to do it is when the head is off but you may have to either at least partially pull the motor or dismantle the grill to get it out and in. And don't wait until the last minute to decide on a cam swap, b/c it can take a while to get the cam ground and to your door once you order and are put enque if the cam you want isn't laying on a shelf.
I just changed the front mail in October so i got to see how the timing stuff looked, the timing chain was in pretty good shape. Hardly any slack.
I anticipated to have to take the grill out, i really dont want to have to yank the engine again.
And thats why I'm starting to talk about this now. I may not get the head on before the end of summer. I'm working on trying to get the T5 in too. I'm not in a rush to get it in.
 
Creechn32":dcxbobrw said:
I'm going to say you would see better gains taking a step up with a nice street cam. I've considered a cam swap myself. Rocker arms are quite pricey and they won't increase the duration as much as the cam will. I've been trying to do as much reading through previous posts to figure out which manufacturer to go with. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the Clay Smith and Schneider cams seem to be held in high regard around here. You will take better advantage of the head work and compression with a step up in camshaft.....
Yeah I've seen a lot of Schneider cams recommendations. And I'd definitely like to get the most out of the head im putting on. The cams I've seen are a lot cheaper than the rockers, but after the cam and double roller stuff it costs about the same.
 
wsa111":1vlkueyw said:
Ryan, if you want a smooth idle you best call Jerry @ Schneider cams. He will advise a cam with shorter intake duration & higher lift, with at least a 112 L/C.
Make sure you get the valve springs & retainers from him. Don't use the stock ford junk.
How many cc's are in the combustion chambers???? Bill
I will be calling him. I've seen you recommend him several times on here.

So for a smooth idle, I'm gonna want less duration? So duration is what causes the lopeiness? I'm just figuring out what all the cam stuff means so i apologize if I'm asking about stuff i don't know about.

I planned on changing the valve springs at least but I'll look into the retainers as well.

I will be measuring that soon. I'm waiting to finish my work with it at the shop at school then i csn take it home and check the CC of the chambers or ask the machine shop when i have the exhaust valves upped. But it is originally a 1980 head, so i know if it hasnt been cut its gonna need a lot of cutting.
 
StarDiero75":lny1r1dv said:
wsa111":lny1r1dv said:
Ryan, if you want a smooth idle you best call Jerry @ Schneider cams. He will advise a cam with shorter intake duration & higher lift, with at least a 112 L/C.
Make sure you get the valve springs & retainers from him. Don't use the stock ford junk.
How many cc's are in the combustion chambers???? Bill
I will be calling him. I've seen you recommend him several times on here.

So for a smooth idle, I'm gonna want less duration? So duration is what causes the lopeiness? I'm just figuring out what all the cam stuff means so i apologize if I'm asking about stuff i don't know about.

I planned on changing the valve springs at least but I'll look into the retainers as well.

I will be measuring that soon. I'm waiting to finish my work with it at the shop at school then i can take it home and check the CC of the chambers or ask the machine shop when i have the exhaust valves upped. But it is originally a 1980 head, so i know if it hasnt been cut its gonna need a lot of cutting.
Lobe center & intake duration over 260 & @ 210 degrees @ .050"
You running 87 octane will require all your engine #'s for recurving. You can get a little more power by running higher octane via distributor recurving.
 
wsa111":c5ps22cp said:
StarDiero75":c5ps22cp said:
wsa111":c5ps22cp said:
Ryan, if you want a smooth idle you best call Jerry @ Schneider cams. He will advise a cam with shorter intake duration & higher lift, with at least a 112 L/C.
Make sure you get the valve springs & retainers from him. Don't use the stock ford junk.
How many cc's are in the combustion chambers???? Bill
I will be calling him. I've seen you recommend him several times on here.

So for a smooth idle, I'm gonna want less duration? So duration is what causes the lopeiness? I'm just figuring out what all the cam stuff means so i apologize if I'm asking about stuff i don't know about.

I planned on changing the valve springs at least but I'll look into the retainers as well.

I will be measuring that soon. I'm waiting to finish my work with it at the shop at school then i can take it home and check the CC of the chambers or ask the machine shop when i have the exhaust valves upped. But it is originally a 1980 head, so i know if it hasnt been cut its gonna need a lot of cutting.
Lobe center & intake duration over 260 & @ 210 degrees @ .050"
You running 87 octane will require all your engine #'s for recurving. You can get a little more power by running higher octane via distributor recurving.
So I'm gonna take it you recommend running 92 octane? Thats what I'm doing now. Its just expensive. But if it squeaks about a bit more noticable power with the recurve I can stand that. I'll get the dizzy to you when I'm about to tear it all down and get the head on. I think I'm gonna do the cam over rockers.
 
So Jerry recommended the 248/56H

Part Number: 13721
Grind Number: 248-56H
Intake Duration (gross): 248
Exhaust Duration (gross): 256
Intake Duration (.050”): 194
Exhaust Duration (.050”): 204
Intake Valve Lift*: .400"
Exhaust Valve Lift*: .420"
Lobe Separation: 110
Intake Valve Lash: .000"
Exhaust Valve Lash: .000"
RPM Range:
1000-4000


Or the 256 H

Part Number: 13720
Grind Number: 256H
Intake Duration (gross): 256
Exhaust Duration (gross): 256
Intake Duration (.050”): 204
Exhaust Duration (.050”): 204
Intake Valve Lift*: .420"
Exhaust Valve Lift*: .420"
Lobe Separation: 112
Intake Valve Lash: .000"
Exhaust Valve Lash: .000"
RPM Range:
1250-4500

He said these would give me the extra low end torque I'm looking for since my cruise with the T5 at 60 will be about 1829 RPM. The 248/56H he said will give me better mileage for the compression i want to run (9-9.1). While the 256H will keep me at about what my mileage is now.

Being this is a daily, I'm leaning towards the 248/56H, what do you all think?
 
Neither, go with the intake 256 & the exhaust 260 @ 112 L/C & advance it 4 degrees.
 
Either one of those is going to wake that engine up. I hate to give advice on cams but I do tend to warn against going to far. As you go up you will lower your dcr, that can be addressed with milling the head. As you go up you will also push the powerband up. With a 5 speed manual that could be good, with an automatic not so much. I'm running a Schneider 256/262/112(256-2H) with 2 degree's ground in advance. Installed it came in at 3 degree's advanced. It's been a great cam for my 250 in the van. I needed to bleed some pressure off b/c I planned my build around a longer duration cam that was flawed and had to switch mnfrs midstream. Jerry initially recommended the 256H but after hearing my concerns about my compression issues he advised the larger split cam. I'd go with what he recommends. It's a daily driver right? Not a race car. If you like how it performs now, you'll love it with a modern cam with steeper lobes and more lift. It comes down to how you use your ride 90% of the time, if that's below 4000 and you don't plan to go to the track on the weekend, I personally don't see the point in making more power at the top end at the cost of what you use most of the time. Which is 1-3K. I think what Bill is getting at is that if you go with the larger split duration cam I used, the 256-2H, you can advance the cam more and bring the powerband back down a bit. I think the 256H for a 200 would be ideal. This is the problem with asking for a cam recommendation, everyone has a different idea about what you should do. You've got to figure it out for yourself based on what you need and want out of the engine/car.
 
Engines with poor flowing heads need the Windsor 5.0 prescription of wilder cam, and if they go to greater than stock rocker ratios, you can drop in a milder cam and get a better result.


Do both, but don't do it twice, and Only Do What You can Afford.

Past 490 thou lift at the valve, unless you use a special piston dish, you'll get piston to valve contact.
 
Econoline":300hydqo said:
Either one of those is going to wake that engine up. I hate to give advice on cams but I do tend to warn against going to far. As you go up you will lower your dcr, that can be addressed with milling the head. As you go up you will also push the powerband up. With a 5 speed manual that could be good, with an automatic not so much. I'm running a Schneider 256/262/112(256-2H) with 2 degree's ground in advance. Installed it came in at 3 degree's advanced. It's been a great cam for my 250 in the van. I needed to bleed some pressure off b/c I planned my build around a longer duration cam that was flawed and had to switch mnfrs midstream. Jerry initially recommended the 256H but after hearing my concerns about my compression issues he advised the larger split cam. I'd go with what he recommends. It's a daily driver right? Not a race car. If you like how it performs now, you'll love it with a modern cam with steeper lobes and more lift. It comes down to how you use your ride 90% of the time, if that's below 4000 and you don't plan to go to the track on the weekend, I personally don't see the point in making more power at the top end at the cost of what you use most of the time. Which is 1-3K. I think what Bill is getting at is that if you go with the larger split duration cam I used, the 256-2H, you can advance the cam more and bring the powerband back down a bit. I think the 256H for a 200 would be ideal. This is the problem with asking for a cam recommendation, everyone has a different idea about what you should do. You've got to figure it out for yourself based on what you need and want out of the engine/car.
Most of my driving is below 4000 RPM. I'd probably shift lower if i didn't have my 3 spd and the 2.8 rear. I honestly want more power than what I got and i want drivability, thats most important to me, If you think the 256H will most fit that over Bill's recommendation than I'll try that.

Also, I'm not seeing Bills 256/260 on Schneider cams. It goes from the 256H to 262/70H

So what does advancing the cam do? And why is it beneficial
 
The 256/262 112 is a custom grind. The 256-2H. Advancing the cam 2 more degrees will bring the power band down a little bit. Bringing it back closer to the powerband of the 256H installed as ground. They are almost the same cam, same lift but with a longer duration on the exhaust side with more overlap. A split duration cam can cost you low end power and torque, with the benefit being better exhaust scavenging at the high end of the powerband. Like I said I only went with the split cam b/c I felt I had to b/c of compression issues. It helped lower my dcr a touch. If fuel economy, drivability and low end torque are the biggest concerns, smaller is better, jmo.

The stock cam in a 66 200 is a 246/246 advertised, 180/180 duration @ .050" w/.349" lift and lazy lift profiles. That's where you are coming from.

In 79 they were 256/256 advertised, 185/185 @ .050" w/.366" lift.

The 256H is 256/256 advertised, 204/204 @ .050" w/.420" lift and much steeper lift profiles.

The 256-2H is 256/262 advertised, 204/208 @ .050" w/.420" lift

If you wanted to go with a bigger cam than the 256, I'd ask Jerry about a 262/262/112. It would be a 208/208 duration @ .050" with likely a bit more lift.
 
Econoline":331jdxdc said:
The 256/262 112 is a custom grind. The 256-2H. Advancing the cam 2 more degrees will bring the power band down a little bit. Bringing it back closer to the powerband of the 256H installed as ground. They are almost the same cam, same lift but with a longer duration on the exhaust side with more overlap. A split duration cam can cost you low end power and torque, with the benefit being better exhaust scavenging at the high end of the powerband. Like I said I only went with the split cam b/c I felt I had to b/c of compression issues. It helped lower my dcr a touch. If fuel economy, drivability and low end torque are the biggest concerns, smaller is better, jmo.

The stock cam in a 66 200 is a 246/246 advertised, 180/180 duration @ .050" w/.349" lift and lazy lift profiles. That's where you are coming from.

In 79 they were 256/256 advertised, 185/185 @ .050" w/.366" lift.

The 256H is 256/256 advertised, 204/204 @ .050" w/.420" lift and much steeper lift profiles.

The 256-2H is 256/262 advertised, 204/208 @ .050" w/.420" lift

If you wanted to go with a bigger cam than the 256, I'd ask Jerry about a 262/262/112. It would be a 208/208 duration @ .050" with likely a bit more lift.
Thank you Econoline for laying all that out. As compared to the stock cams, you're right, any new aftermarket cam will wake my engine up lol. I think I'm gonna do the 256H then. I'd like to try to get as much power as I can out of all this, especially since its a lot of work to put in but keep my low end. I won't be trying to bleed off DCR so it should be fine. Now, what would happen if i advanced the 256H? And how many degrees would i want to advance it? Like i said earlier, most of my driving is gonna be under 3k. I live in a hilly area, so I'm kinda worried about my highway cruise at 60 being 1829 RPM. Thats low. I mean i probably drive 65-70 but its still gonna be low and I'd like not to have to down shift. Would advancing that cam a little help give more torque down there? Or should it be fine as is?

Thanks,
Ryan
 
I'd ask Jerry about that when you order the cam. I don't think it would hurt to advance it a couple of degrees more but he knows alot more about it than I ever will.
 
Econoline":1v2wvgvg said:
I'd ask Jerry about that when you order the cam. I don't think it would hurt to advance it a couple of degrees more but he knows alot more about it than I ever will.
Will do man. I'll be getting it after I have my head work done. I'm trying to focus my money on 1 thing at a time. But I'm glad i know what I want now.

I'll post on this again when i order it and install it.

Thanks guys,
Ryan
 
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