Starter Swaps for the 250's, 200's, & other Small Six'es

Recently there was a discussion on the big six forum on using the newer small case Motorcraft or aftermarket gear reduction starters in place of the big case old style starters. These newer starters have lots of advantages like smaller diameter cases for more header clearance, less weight, faster starting, to name a few. So thought I would also share some of highlights from mine and others posts here in the small six forum as it also applies to our 250's, & low mount 200's, and many other Small Ford Sixes that uses a 2 bolt starter. Latest Update (05/16/20020) a site member recently found that the 2nd & 3rd Genteration Motorcraft two bolt starter cases (1988 to 1995) or (1996 to latest as of this post) aren't clocked correctly to be able fit (was to close or hits the block so these newer style starters aren't going to fit on any of the two bolt high mount starter blocks and bell housings this includes all the 144's, 170's, and most all 200's blocks (exception is the rare later model 200 low mount blocks plus all 250's 240's and 300's / 4.9's). So both of these newer starters are not likely to fit on any of the high mount starter blocks and bell housings without doing some custom work (see the below note).

Note: Here is a yet unproven idea, in theory if you were to unbol the two through starter case bolts so that the rear tail piece can be removed and turned to reclock it in the same position as a 1st Gen two bolt (144, 170, or a 200 Six) starter is clocked. Then It may be possable to fit the 2nd or 3rd Gen starters, by just drilling and tapping two new holes for the case through bolts in the starters nose / tail piece and also grind a new small notch for case clocking alinement pin. Other than trying this to find out the best way right now is to buy a new aftermarket PMGR Mini starter. So these newer Motorcraft 2nd & 3rd Gen starters right now will only bolt onto all the 250's, 240's and 300's / 4.9's, Six'es. And for the time being unless someone wants to do an experiment only the orginal 1st Gen starter fits the high mount blocks and Bellhousing, unless you go with one of the Aftermarket PMGR Mini Starters that are known to fit (only ones that the case can be clocked). To see the full topic go here. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80786&p=627549#p627549

As for for the other Ford & Mercury Small Six'es 200's, 170's, & 144's', with an Auto Transmission these will use a 3 Bolt Starter your going to run into the same thing, using the stock starter or going with one of the aftermarket Mini Starters. These 3 bolt starters are based on the Ford FE V8's (332, 352, 360, 390, 406, 410, 427, & 42. Update 5/16/2020 All 3 bolt OEM starters Ford ever made for these engines have a large case, the other choice if you want a smaller starter is getting an aftermarket PMGR Mini Starter that's made to fit an FE Ford V8 with an Auto Trans (but it must be one that case can be clocked) to be able to fit on a 144,170, and 200's High Mount Short Blocks and Auto Bellhousing. Fords has two starter drive depths 3/8 or 3/4 inch. Measure from the face of your bell housing where the starter bolts on to the ring gear to determine your depth. Generally a Manual Trans Bell Housing uses a 3/8 inch depth starter and an Auto Trans has a 3/4 inch depth. Latest Update: One of the Smallest in Size, Lightest, that's very Powerful, and is also Infinitely Adjustable for the Solenoid Position in a Mini Starter and will fit the 144, 170, and 200 Small Six's with a Ford O / or Merc O Matic and or the C4 Auto Transmissions is the RobbMc Performance Part #3001 https://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/fordat_starter.html

Their are also some commonly available aftermarket gear reduction starters can be used if it's for the same application and if the Solenoid Position can be clocked in the right position. Plus there are two late OEM Ford Motorcraft starters one is a smaller case and one is a PMGR Mini HI Torque starter that might be used with a little bit of work. I remember that many of the starter rebuilders and new manufactures use a base number to ID starters for an application (not sure the correct number in this case but think it's 3157) but these particular starters will fit many Ford engines like the rare late model big bell 200's, plus all the 250, 240, 300, 4.9, 3.8, 289, 302, 351 W's & C's ect.

Econoline:3tl610l5 said:

The indexing hub of the starters is also slightly different based on application, m/t vs a/t. The Manual 2 bolt starter has a slightly larger hub and won't fit in the bore on an automatic trans. Conversely you can bolt up an automatic starter in a manual, but you would notice the loose fit in the bore.

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Econoline brought up a great point in his above post. I have seen people use shims and spacers to adapt the wrong starters and I have always just wondered why bother doing that. When you use the right tail piece on the starter you get the right starter drive depth and it fits into the starter mounting hole as it's supposed to. This has been a constant throughout on the Ford starters. The starter motors are the same the tail piece for an Auto trans needs to be used for an Auto trans Bell Housing and a Manual Trans tail piece used for a Manual Trans Bell Housing.

Just like there is a direct interchange between the old large case two bolt starters and the late model small case starters used on the 1988 up EFI engines like the 4.9, 240 / 300, 5.0, 3.8 etc.. As an example my original starter on my 1994 F150 4.9 (300) / 5 speed (small case hi torque stater) went out one day. I had a 5.0 V8 starter in the garage it's the same starter except it was for an auto trans car so I just swapped my tail end piece (starter drive section) off my 300 starter on to the 5.0 starter and popped it in worked great and the pickup was back in service in about 1 hour. Good luck

There are two main flywheels or flex plates with tooth counts 157 & 164 plus another 141 that was used only in the sub compact cars. The 157 is then most common size its found in cars like mid 60's up Falcons Mustamgs, Fairlanes, Torino's, and their Mercury counterparts, etc, it measures 13.280 inches in Diameter. The next one with 164 tooth flywheels or flex plates being mostly used in the F series trucks, E series Vans and some bigger Ford or Mercury cars lake a Galaxy it measures 14.240 inches in diameter. There is a third size a 141 tooth flex plate (no fly wheels) it measures 11.94 inches in diameter that was used in the 1975 to 1978 Pinto's, Bobcat's, and Mustang II's with a 302 V8 and C4 / C3 trans. All of these 6 bolt bell blocks (250, 240, 300, (6's) and SBF V8's mid 1965 289, 302, 351 W, 351 C, (to name a few) all have the ability to use any of these three tooth counts by their intended transmission use.

woodbutcher":1p9xitg7 said:

I noticed from Bubbas posts,that the hi torque starters are direct drive.Would there be any re-wiring required for those starters?Maybe Bubba could post a bit of a schematic for the re-wire?Again,thanks to all who have posted. The provided information has been most helpful.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

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wallen7":1p9xitg7 said:

All you have to do is add a jumper from the battery cable terminal to the solenoid terminal and it will work like the old starter. No rewiring. It will just engage 2 solenoids, the original when you turn the key and the one on the starter when power is applied to the starter terminal.

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HI Woodbutcher, there is no rewiring needed when using the first Ford MotorCraft small case starter (EFI 1988 to Aprox 1995) see link to picture of example. The wiring diagram is for these starters it's essentially the same as for the older larger case starters used from 1956 up to about the end of 1986 or 87 (am not sure of the ending year). These First Gen Starters weight a hefty 16 pounds. The wiring diagram was still basicly the same with these first smaller case starters used from 1987 or 88 until the 1995 Fords. There have been some different looking solenoids used over the years and the ignistion coil full 12 volt boost wire (I terminal used during starting) was eliminated with the advent of EFI its newer Ignition system being controlled by the CPU, see link for examples but the rest of the starter wiring was still the same. This is as simple of a swap as unbolting your old large case starter then bolting in the new smaller MotorCraft starter the wiring stays the same check out all pictures in links below.

Starter circuit wiring diagram used through 1995.
https://wiringforums.com/ford-f-150-sta ... -f150-4-9/

Pictures of different Ford Solenoids
https://wiringforums.com/ford-f-150-sta ... g-diagram/

Picture Showing the Size Difference of a First Gen Ford Stater and an Aftermarket PA Performance PMGR Starter
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/e ... allery/#10

Example of First Ford small case starter 1988 to 1995
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 0_853758_0

For the Aftermarket Gear Reduction Mini starters and the Ford Motorcraft 1996 up these are the smallest case (Mini) starters there are some wiring differances see below links for pictures of examples of these starters. As an example the aftermarket PA Performance PMGR Ford starter only weighs 8 pounds. Since both of these will have the solenoid mounted on their smaller case starters, the old fender well mounted solenoid that was used with the large case starters could used or now even be eliminated. It's not too big a deal though and a few ways it can be done.

1. The old starter cable is disconnected off the back (starter) side of the old solenoid post and reconnected so that it now goes direct from the battery side of the solenoid down to the new starters battery cable largest post. This repurposes the old solenoid to operate in tandem with the new starters Solinod and is used as a stud mounting to conect the battery cable and starter cables together.

2. Then you have the starter trigger wire from the old starter cable side down to the starter thermal use a 12 to 10 gauge wire for that. That's about all there is to it (Note this) if you have a point type ignistion system or a Mallery Unilite distribtor, in that case you will need a diode (there are wire kits for this or you can make your for about 5 cents plus some wire up to coil) to allow a full 12 volts to coil during starting / cranking you can ask me if you need help with this.

3. if you also wanted to remove the old solenoid and clean up the looks a little more under the hood, then that can be done with just a little more work using a longer (Posative) battery cable. The wiring diagram would be kind of like what was used on the old 1955 up into 1990's Chevy's and other GM models of the era (see below link for a basic wiring diagram). A Bosh type Relay hooked to battery post and the old starter wire from ignistion switch is then used to trigger the relay a 12 to 10 gauge wire goes down to the starters solinod second largest post (check out the Tipical Chevy / GM wiring diagram below for some hints. See also the above Note if still using a point type ignistion.

As wallon7 posted you could link the two solenoids as in 1. & 2. so they operated together (see below link modding the Stock Ford Starter Solinod Wiring Diagram to Power the Newer Style PMGR Starter). There are also some old posts on the PowerMaster PMGR starters showing were people looped a jumper wire from the starters battery (largest) post to the second (largest) post this is a big no no and causes the starter to stay engaged with flywheel for a few seconds. Good luck Edited

Aftermarket Gear Reduction Mini Starter
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-13124/make/ford

Motorcraft OEM Later style EFI the Smallest Case Ford Starter with Solinoid these can vary by application and year of use Aprox 1996 up
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 002_0_3498

Modding the Stock Ford Starter Solinod Wiring to Power the Newer Style PMGR Starter
http://www.garysgaragemahal.com/pmgr-st ... iring.html

Or Also Like This
http://cdn.wildhorses4x4.com/downloads/ ... -12-09.pdf

Tipical Chevy / GM starter wiring diagram
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/el ... 55car1.jpg

sdiesel":57b93pf5 said:

This all sounds like a dandy but of news for the engines with headers. Does a newer style starter allow more room between the header and the starter?

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Yes for sure it gives you more room or clearance around the headers as you can see the differences between the First Generation (1960's to 1980's starters) and the Third Generation Motocraft starters (1996 up starters) in Econolines great Pictures in below post. All we need now is a Picture of one the Second Generation Motorcraft starters used in 1988 to 1995 to show its size In between those two.

Econoline":57b93pf5 said:

I found these picture I took comparing the size of the old style vs the new style starters on my aod

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Ahhh, there's Seth's left hand...been lookin 4 this pic again.
Now I saw one where the owner removed that lill jump wire (I think) and went from one lug up to the starter solenoid (relay). Is that correct or U leave it alone & just go to the solenoid?
EDIT:
BTW: I used this solution too - an FE ministarter (460) from DB Ele as it was less than 70 bucks. Hope I'm as lucky w/batt. Want AGM w/side posts only (tops can hit the bronk fender/core support @ their junction). A 230$ side excersion on my yellow brick to "Die-Hard", yes - still in production (Johnson Controls? - 1 of the 3, 4 battery manafacturers nation wide) to Advance. IF they carry. Tryin to get it has proven elusive (Group 34/78 - the 2nd seems to signify AGM but same size). Need to bait my hook w/a gold nugget?

chad said:

Now I saw one where the owner removed that lill jump wire (I think) and went from one lug up to the starter solenoid (relay). Is that correct or U leave it alone & just go to the solenoid?

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Hi Chad, there are severial ways to wire them, so It's going to depend on which starter your using and the other parts you are wanting to use with it. Can you post some pictures of the parts tgat you want to use?

Ho Boy - pic.
If lucky I'll get that tech going by the time I finish smoothin the engine bay ("done").
Thnx 4 da post back!
On the pmgr is a lill external wire (like the 3G) that goes btwn a lug & inside(?) the starter. I saw one say get rid of it & just run where that was up to the starter relay. I just have so lill automotive ele knowledge all I can do is 'mechanically" copy. I think: "This will relieve solinoid stress so it lasts forever". This cheepskate looks for all things durable...
Like the Handbook & tech archive - I need to read something (hi skol auto shop ele theory manuel?) so I can even ask the right Qs.

Hi Chad, So if you want to keep the stock fender mounted Ford starter Solinod then wire the PMGR Mini starter just like in this PowerMadter wiring diagram, and yes you wouldn't be using a small jumper wire. Good luck

Wiring a PMGR Mini Starter and using it in Tandem with the stock Ford Solinod

don't think I got 3 posts on starter-attached solenoid. Will double ck.
AWG#12 is the smallest any 1 has mentioned (but I'd trust it) solenoid load side to M6 x 1.0. It looks like 2 wires go to the keyed ing. switch (back of s. solenoid and "S" off fender solenoid).
What are:
M6 x 1 1.0
M6 x 1.0
What is a "motor lead M8 X 1.25"?
These all remind me of notations on schematics I don't understand - LOL

Thanks bubs, I am doin my Johnny Cash thing (One Piece @ a Time) so am not enamored w/the vehicle's current ele system. I may open loom'n harnesses and lay new wire. I still have a raggedy cloth covered, brittle, collapsed 2 owner hacked (pre 1983) set of wires on the rig. I'm going to attempt a correct wire color to replace as I'd rather that than trust them w/the increased power I'm planning. (2 Batt.s, winch, CB, 6 lights, etc). No radio/stereo, a/c, amps, etc...8^ )

So Your starter solenoid will have: 4 Posts
1. For this type wiring system remove the jumper wire from the trigger post to the battery cable if your starter has it most probably don't have it.
2. The large Pos + Battery cable post at the front of the Solenod gets changed so that the large starter cable gets moved from the large back post of the starter solenoid to the larger front post with the Pos + Battery Cable. The other end goes down to the new starter Solenods Battery Post. Or M8x1.25
3. Now you make a new wire out of 12 gauge that is run from the now empty larger back starter Solenoid Post and down to the new starter post Switched Ignition M6 X 1.0 this is the starters trigger wire so it dosent have much of an electrical load you could use a 10 gauge wire if you feel you want too.
4. The other Solenod wiring for The S Termanal remains stock as it is now.
That's it only a few miners of work on the wiring part after the stater is has been bolted in. Good luck

good luck, ha, I need it.
Wanna get the stuff in frnt of me to follow this~
thnx

"Which starter to use is a common question and a common source of frustration for people doing a T5 or TKO conversion behind a Ford Small Block. The problem stems from the mis-information in the literature and from the starter manufacturers themselves. It was, and still is, very common to read that you need a starter for a manual transmission (M/T)."
"It is only the 164 tooth in front of a manual trans which used a different starter (3/8″ depth).
It is this starter that people end up with which gives them grief. The local parts store may call out this starter as the starter of choice for a “manual” transmission. They don’t differentiate the flywheel.
So it is best to specify a starter for a “automatic” transmission as you will be using a 157 tooth flywheel in the majority of T5/TKO conversions. If you are using original bell housing and it is for a 164 tooth flywheel then you will need the 3/8″ depth starter . . ."
Ring Gear Depth Registration Diameter
164 tooth, M/T 3/8″ 4.130″
164 tooth A/T
157 tooth M/T & A/T 3/4″ 4.084

9” clutches use a “flat” 136 Tooth flywheel.
ALl 8.5” clutches use a “dog dish” 132 Tooth flywheel.
Torque Converter C4 1970-81; 6 Cyl. 170, 200ci engines have ring gears with 132 teeth.
The two bolt high starter C4 that I just measured uses an engine block plate with a 4.084" diameter starter hole. The 1978 2 bolt starter nose measured .4083.
The 78 C4 bell housing has 3 bolt holes in the starter area. The middle hole is used for the trans. dipstick tube. The other two mount the starter.
Will a 3 bolt FE mini starter bolt to the C4 bellhousing with 2 or 3 bolts?
Is the 3 bolt FE starter made for an engine block plate with a 4.084 starter hole.
Does the 3 bolt FE mini starter have the same starter depth as a 2 bolt C4 starter?

All Ford 144, 170, or 200 small sixes that have an Auto Trans including the 1960 to 1964 Ford O or Merc O Matic's as well as all 1965 to 1981170 & 200 sixes with a High Mount Starter on the C4's transmissions will all use the same smaller bell housing bolt pattern (the only exception to this is the one year only 1982 200 six block know as the big bell block this resembles 2/3 of the SBF V8 and uses a low mounted starter) with a Three Bolt Starter that's the same bolt pattern as used on an FE V8. Yes there are some FE Mini starters that will bolt right up to the small block Ford 170 & 200 Six with a C4's. I don't know if the one you listed above will fit though you would need to do the testing to find out. For best results look for a Mini starter that's able to be clocked for the best fitment, as one example the Power master 9000-6, The FE starters have two pinion drive depths of 3/8 or 3/4 inch the safest way to get the right FE starter is to measure the distance from the starter mounting pad to the ring gear.

All 1966 to 1981 high mount starters for the 170 & 200 small sixes that are using a Larger 136 Tooth Flat Type Flywheel with the 9 inch Clutch assembly with manual transmission use a unique 2 bolt starter that looks much like a 289 or 302 type however it is clocked differently so that those Mini starters won't be able to fit, they are just too tight against the block. Best of luck.

I'm interested in a mini starter with a register diameter of 4.083 for a 200 six with a high starter, small pattern bell housing that has 132 tooth converter ring gear.
By comparing the applications a person should be able to pick out a less expensive brand if that is what is wanted.
I would guess that the 3 bolt $94.95 ebay Mini Starter Ford Automatic 1966-1981 FE 352/360/390/427/428 has the same applications as the ROBBMC Ford Gen II Mini-Starter – PN 3001 $279.00 which lists one of it's applications as "170/200/250 Series L6 with 3/4" ring gear offset and a register diameter of 4.083".
ROBBMC Ford Gen II Mini-Starter – PN 3001
331-428 FE Series V8 with 1965 and later 184 tooth ring gear.
255/260/289/302/351 Windsor Series V8 with auto trans
255/260/289/302/351 Windsor Series V8 with manual trans and 157 tooth ring gear
351 Cleveland V8 w/auto trans
1994 and earlier 5.0L V8 with automatic or 5 speed manual trans
170/200/250 Series L6 with 3/4" ring gear offset
1981-1990 232 (3.8L) V6 except FWD & manual trans trucks
240/300 Series L6 with auto trans
1961-1967 430/462 MEL Series V8
This starter has three mounting holes. Some applications will only use two of the three holes.
This starter has a register diameter of 4.083" and is designed for ring gears that are 3/4" from the starter mounting surface.
This starter is 7-11/16" long from the mounting surface to the end of the motor.
The solenoid can be rotated to any position without taking the starter apart.

FIND THE BEST POSITION FOR THE ROBBMC MINI STARTER SOLENOID
The solenoid can be rotated to any position, without removing any bolts. Use a 5/16” wrench or socket to loosen the two hex head adjuster bolts on the end of the RobbMc starter motor. This allows the solenoid to be rotated relative to the nose.
Bolt the starter in place on the engine/transmission and rotate the solenoid to the best position for your application. There must be a ½” minimum air gap between the exhaust and the solenoid.
Use a 5/16” socket to tighten the two adjuster bolts (45 in-lbs) and lock the solenoid in position.

WoW
had not had mine running since the mini (& 3G altern) went in (today)
I may need to peruse this info as it had that scraping sound heard w/a mismatch. Does the job, runs, starts "but sompin's wrong" Damn. I went thru several FW to get a 300 (I remember vagely). Is it 164 or 157? That seems to be the most needed info to get the right snout length (actually 'gear jump out')? I C

"... So what are our recommendations?
Starters 157 tooth M/T & A/T
164 tooth A/T 164 tooth M/T ..."

at the end of the article - nota measurement near/at the "nose" or 'snout'?
I like the 1/2 inch provisio and RobbMC for rotating w/the solinoid. Just finished the wiring there today. For a 64$ loss I may shelve mine'n try again w/this? But 300$ is a huge step up for me.
I gota FE. Did not specify auto, FW teeth, or manny transmis. Has manny. Jeesh~

Nxt wk may have time for nother H2O pump gasket. Leaks there. Back onto the starter and locating the idiot light wire for the diode.

Hi 78_200_ C4, yes the RobbMc mini is one of the known starters that will fit the small sixes with an Auto Trans. Your above list has at least one typo should be 164 tooth not a big deal except there isn't any 184 tooth for these small six applications. Hi Chad as far as I know all 250, 240, & 300 (4.9) sixes will use the same two bolt starter as those that were used on the late 1965 289. 302, 351 and many others. You do need to check the ring gear position though and then pick the right one.

Accordind to Powermaster the diameter of the starter hole in the block plate determines which starter to buy. This determines if a 3/8" or 3/4" depth starter is needed.
A 4.130 I.D. hole is used on the 3/8" depth 164 M/T tooth ring gear.
a 4.084 I.D. hole is used on 3/4" depth 164 tooth A/T and the 157 tooth M/T & A/T.