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Looking at starter options for a 200.

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Dragonlich1961
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Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #1 by Dragonlich1961 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:25 pm

With my 61 nearing paint I am begining to do final parts gathering to put it back together,
I have a 68 200 with 9 inch clutch, 2 bolt starter, t5 trans. I'm running vintage inline's dual oultet header and I'm looking to run a smaller starter. The larger oem starter will clear but it's very hard to install. Due to my air conditioning the battery is relocated to the false floor in my bed and I want to due away with the starter solinoid on the fender.
I've heard of 94 3.8 starters and 5.0 starters and starters from robbmc. Looking at oem options, it's something im trying to do with this build is use standard wear items that I can source easily.

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chad
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starter options for 200.

Post #2 by chad » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:39 pm

funny, been watchin this Bd?
Just published an answ to that Q (all 'sm block' i6s)...
bubba shows how to eliminate the solinoid as well.
What yr?
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Dragonlich1961
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #3 by Dragonlich1961 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:50 pm

I saw the recent post by bubba about the 250 but not the smaller high mount starter 200. Wiring is simple, since I'm starting from scratch with an American auto kit , battery to starter and start signal from key to solinoid on starter like Chevy.

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bubba22349
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #4 by bubba22349 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:40 pm

Since you have a 2 bolt starter you will find all the info you need for the OEM Ford Hi Torque Motorcraft Mini starters in this below link. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:

250 & 200 2 Bolt OEM Starter Swaps
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80808
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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65coupei6
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #5 by 65coupei6 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:40 pm

Easy answer. The FE starter should work.
...Marco

'65 Mustang Inline 200. VI (CI) Aluminum Head, Holley 350, Schneider 264/274 cam,
Headers, DSII, MSD 6A, and a whole lotta other stuff!

Build That Six With Parts From VintageInlines.com

Dragonlich1961
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #6 by Dragonlich1961 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:47 pm

I'm correct in that a efi era (1994 mustang 5.0. Manual) starter will work?
3 bolt starters can use fe starters.

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bubba22349
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #7 by bubba22349 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:59 pm

Yes 1988 to 1995 EFI 5.0 will work or also the later and even smaller starters with a solinod mounted on them 1996 up such as a 3.8. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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chad
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starter options for a 200

Post #8 by chad » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:17 pm

bubba22349 wrote:...1996 up such as a 3.8L...

that 1 just placed on my new instal as its a fit w/headers (see sig, below)...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Dragonlich1961
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #9 by Dragonlich1961 » Wed May 13, 2020 7:16 pm

Just test fit a 93 mustang 5.0. bolt pattern and pilot register fit. Solenoid is clocked wrong and hit the block, did I chose the wrong on as it fit a 96 3.8( same part number). I can get a clockable one summit but I was hoping for a parts store replacement

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bubba22349
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #10 by bubba22349 » Wed May 13, 2020 8:49 pm

Yes you picked the wrong starter that 1993 5.0 is a 2nd generation starter used from 1988 to 1995. Yes they will fit the 250's into the bell housing mounting hole and they are a little smaller and lighter than a 1st Gen starter but if you wanted to get the smallest and lightest of Motorcraft starters that is a true PMGR Mini starter (is a Hy Torque Gear Drive Unit) then you would need to get the latest one used on the 1996 up models. See below.pictures that Econline posted showing the huge difference in size of a 3rd Gen. Starter Compared to a 1st Generation Starter note how much smaller yet the 3rd Gen staters used from 1996 up. Here one example of the 1996 up Ford PMGR starter https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 002_0_3498

Econoline's Pictures Showing the 1st and 3rd Generation Motorcraft Two Bolt Starters for his 250 with AOD combo

Econoline wrote:I found these picture I took comparing the size of the old style vs the new style starters on my aod

Image

Image
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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bubba22349
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #11 by bubba22349 » Wed May 13, 2020 9:26 pm

The latest version of these Motorcraft PMGR Mini Startes was also used on the 5.0 Explorers and Mercury Mountainers I think until 2001 or so.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Dragonlich1961
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #12 by Dragonlich1961 » Wed May 13, 2020 9:59 pm

I looked up the 96 3.8 and it pulled up as the same starter as the 93 5.0. and it I think it will fit fine other then the soleniod clocking. those starters look like the ones picture above. the solinoid is hitting the block due to the high mount starter bolt pattern being rolled in towards the block.
i can try a exp 2000 5.0 starter but it looks like the solinoid is clocked into far to clear the block. almost like the soleniod should be on the other side of the upper bolt hole. on the low mount 200-250 these will work great but the high mount 200 clocks the starter clockwise and roll the upper solenoid into the block.

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bubba22349
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #13 by bubba22349 » Thu May 14, 2020 12:01 am

Sorry but that listing can't be right it must be a typo, a 1993 5.0 starter and a 1996 3.8 starter don't look the same and are not going to have the same part number as in the above picture. Only the 1996 up starters will have a Solinod mounted on top of the case. Does that listing say it fits a 1997 and newer too? All these late model cars and trucks also have different wiring runs because of the starter mounted Solinod. See below links to compare the two starters which one did you get? The orginal intent of my posts here in the small sis forum was in using the last 3rd Generation Motorcraft starter. These starters offer the smallest size case for the best header clearance, plus a lighter weight, and even faster starting because of its gear reduction system, lastly is the opertunity to also remove the fender well mounted Solenoid for a cleaner lookl :nod: Edited

1988 to 1995 Starter used on the 5.0 and 4.9 engines and many others
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 0_853758_0

1996 up to Current Starter used on many engines
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 002_0_3498
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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starter for a 200 (hi?, low?)

Post #14 by chad » Thu May 14, 2020 12:07 am

this is getting confusing.

After all the futzin around the ol starter fit
w/the last of the CI shorty headers
ona 250 in my bronk...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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bubba22349
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #15 by bubba22349 » Thu May 14, 2020 12:22 am

:shock: Ok Chad, and if you had only been a little bit slower maybe would of been enough time for me to finish adding the links in my above post :bang: it's fixed now. I'll let you take this over if you want to, then maybe it won't be so confusing. :hmmm: This reminds me of that line In Cool Hand Luke "What we have here is a failure to communicate." :rolflmao: I am Sorry OP maybe you will have to get the aftermarket starter that fits your high mount 200, if you can't find one of the later Motorcraft 3rd Gen. starters to try, or maybe someone else can take a stab at helping you. Anyway I am going to be out for the rest of the night. Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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chad
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starter for an unknown yr 200 (hi or low mount?)

Post #16 by chad » Thu May 14, 2020 2:10 am

"...let you take over ..."
I'll wait till the dust settles. I got a lill wrd file on my desk top,
that I have been puttin in some of these excerpts. When sompin breaks
I'll go look it up & replace with beddah offa here. It is amazing that word
now takes pic into its documents, So I got that nice oem mini U & Seth have
talked abt on my lill 'cheat sheet for later. Will put it in the bronk file when a bit
more info comes down...
:thumbup:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), '69 250ci, NV 3550 & DSII, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Dragonlich1961
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #17 by Dragonlich1961 » Thu May 14, 2020 6:22 pm

it was defently the later style starter gen 3 style solenoid included style. the solenoid is clocked to far to the left(when viewed from the flywheel side) and hits the block. the 250 which is a low mount clocks the starter more to the left and allows the solenoid to clear.
Looks like the a powermaster 9103 starter would work, but still would like an oem option. i'll keep looking.

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bubba22349
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #18 by bubba22349 » Thu May 14, 2020 7:30 pm

Can you post a picture of that starter showing the interference on your block? This would be helpful to know. So ok now if it's a 3rd Gen starter you tried, then there is only one other in an OEM Motorcraft starter that is the 2nd Gen EFI 5.0 starter (1988 to 1995) they are built in the same configuration (clocked) as your original 1st Gen. starter except that it has a considerably smaller diameter case that should be a help for header clearance. They are also a good starter and are lighter in weight, my 1994 F150 4.9 / 300 six with a 5 speed also used this same starter as well as many other engines during those years. One afternoon when I needed to quickly replace my orginal starter on the 4.9 I used a 5.0 auto trans starter that I already had in sitting my shop and swapped the tail piece off my old 4.9 starter motor onto the 5.0 starter motor 45 minutes later was back in and its still working perfectly after many years of use. Good luck :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

Dragonlich1961
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #19 by Dragonlich1961 » Thu May 14, 2020 9:32 pm

i have already returned the starter- temp loan from parts store due to work. i don't want to be a pain and order in a wrong starter again just for photos. looks like an aftermarket clockable may be my only option. i will see if i have an extra floating around.

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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #20 by Econoline » Thu May 14, 2020 9:55 pm

bubba22349 wrote:Yes you picked the wrong starter that 1993 5.0 is a 2nd generation starter used from 1988 to 1995. Yes they will fit the 250's into the bell housing mounting hole and they are a little smaller and lighter than a 1st Gen starter but if you wanted to get the smallest and lightest of Motorcraft starters that is a true PMGR Mini starter (is a Hy Torque Gear Drive Unit) then you would need to get the latest one used on the 1996 up models. See below.pictures that Econoline posted showing the huge difference in size of a 3rd Gen. Starter Compared to a 1st Generation Starter note how much smaller yet the 3rd Gen staters used from 1996 up. Here one example of the 1996 up Ford PMGR starter https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 002_0_3498

Econoline's Pictures Showing the 1st and 3rd Generation Motorcraft Two Bolt Starters for his 250 with AOD combo

Econoline wrote:I found these picture I took comparing the size of the old style vs the new style starters on my aod

Image

Image


I'm remembering something about this picture that maybe I never figured out and just assumed I mis-ordered. I think that large starter was a starter that was given to me with my 250 which was a manual afaik, it had a new clutch and new billet flywheel. Long story short, I ordered a manual starter for my 93 f150 and it didn't fit and I realized my error. I ordered the automatic starter and it was a perfect fit. But the other starter fit, I thought it was an ordering screw up on my part at the time, I couldn't remember but I was sure that I ordered the right one... but maybe not. Maybe it was a different kind of screw up on my part than I thought it was. I wish I still had that starter. I do have the block plate and the new manual starter(saved it for my truck) though, I'll check that out.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Econoline
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #21 by Econoline » Thu May 14, 2020 10:12 pm

OK, I just looked, the new 93 300 manual starter is a good fit in the block plate. It's still a mystery.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #22 by Dragonlich1961 » Thu May 14, 2020 11:01 pm

the 96 starter fit the block plate corectly, bolt holes line up register was correct and starter drive oriantaion corect, just the solenoid was fowling.

this is a 2nd gen starter v8, notice the location of the bendix drive cover.
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 0_853758_0

this is a first gen I6 200 starter, again notice the cover location. clocked to the other side of the upper mounting hole.
https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 3_188531_0

the 3rd gen starters have the solenoid in the same place as the bendix drive on the 1st and 2nd gen's. im certin you could fit a gen 2 starter on the 200 but may run into the same issue with the bendix drive fowling. on a 250 im certin it would work great due to how the starter is clocked more like a v8 (top bolt further out then bottom)

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bubba22349
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Re: Looking at starter options for a 200.

Post #23 by bubba22349 » Fri May 15, 2020 12:21 am

Yes I see it! It should take some work but what if you unbolted the two through case bolts so rear tail piece can be turned to reclock it in the right position. Don't think it would take much to drill and tap a couple new holes. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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