'62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Hi Bill, I only know that the 1969 to 1972 250's had straight up timing so that is the cam gear / timing set that I would use for a Performace build. You wouldn't want to use the other two timing sets used on the 1973 to 1980's 250 cam gear / timing set unless you were building a stock engine they all were 4 degrees retarded or more. Sometimes the pictures of parts on line don't match either today was looking up a 250 water pump and numorious places used a picture of a V8 water pump in their listings .

bubba22349":oh0k4qr6 said:

Hi Bill, I only know that the 1969 to 1972 250's had straight up timing so that its the cam gear / timing set that I would wat to use for a Performace build. You wouldn't want to use the other two timing sets used on the 1973 to 1980's 250 cam gear / timing set unless you were building a stock engine they all were 4 degrees retarded or more. Sometimes the pictures of parts on line don't match either, just today was looking up a 250 water pump and numorious places used a picture of a V8 water pump in their listings .

Click to expand...

At this last attempt to measure the intake lobe center the cam is showing being 2 deg advanced so definitely not a retarded timing gear set.
If it continues to measure 2 deg advanced I would call it "Good to go"

I was just comparing pictures on Rock Auto.
I agree on a 250 engine, if it degrees out at 2 degrees advanced so be it.

HI Bill, I compared the pictures of both the cam timing gears this morning on Rock Auto and they are correct for the year groups (see below examples). In digging deeper into these 250 Cam timing gears I found that there is also a third 250 cam gear and a second crank gear this timing chain set was used from 1978 to 1980. I don't know by how much it's timing marks are different compared to the second or first timing set. The picture of this timing cam gear looks like it's maybe upside down as you can't see the timing Dot, I will update my above post with this new info too. If you look at closely at both pictures of the first two cam gears at the timing marks (Dots) and also at the above key way locations you can see that the late one S442 is quite different from the first S414. i.E. Key way is to the left side compared to the S414 which is about straight with the timing Dot.

Early 250 cam gear 1969 to 1972 Cloyes # S414 that is used with # S415 crank gear
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/for ... ocket,5722

Later 250 cam gear 1973 to 1977 Cloyes # S442 that is used with # S415 crank gear
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/for ... ocket,5722

Last 250 cam gear 1978 to 1980 or? Cloyes # S502T that's used with crank gear # S507
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.ph ... cc=1130016

Greetings Ford Six Fans,

After several hours attempting to do so, I was unable to degree the cam with the head on with the equipment that I had.

Have adjustable rockers, and initially tried with the micrometer probe in the hex-shaped hole in the center of the adjuster. This may work with a lower lift cam, but with this cam (a 280H) the lift is higher so the micrometer probe pops out of the hole (skewing the measurement) before max lift is reached. Also tried cutting a piece of gasket material into a round shape to fit inside the adjuster lock nut and cover the hex-shaped hole. This was better, but still the micrometer probe reached the edge of the lock nut (skewing the measurement) before max lift was reached. I'm thinking the only way to degree at the adjuster end of the rocker would be to find a small metal cup, shaped like a small freeze plug, large enough to completely cover the lock nut, and thin enough to not interfere with the upper surface of the rocker arm.

The micrometer mount I have is not long enough to reach the valve side of the rocker arm with the magnetic base on the pushrod side, and the aluminum head won't work for magnetic mounting on the valve side.

To make this work, I'd have to either get a mount that can clamp to a head stud; or get a micrometer extension tip long enough to work directly off the lifter.

I may try these approaches, but I'm still moving forward based on the head off degree I've already done.

Thanks
Bob

Greetings Ford Six Fans,

This is another head scratcher: my aluminum head was milled .056. Thinking about this, that should bring the adjusters on the rockers closer to the block and thus closer to the lifters, which should make the pushrods (Smith Brothers, custom length ball and cup) seem longer, requiring a back off of the adjusters. Is my logic sound?

I put the head back on yesterday in an attempt to degree with the head on (totally unsuccessful, see post above), but noticed that the pushrods actually seem too short. I was able to adjust them, but then the lock nut is not completely engaged on the adjuster.

Am I thinking of this incorrectly? Shouldn't milling the head make the pushrods seem too long?

Thanks
Bob

Milling the head should have made the pushrod seem too long for the same cam.
If the new cam has a smaller base circle in order to grind the lobes for higher lift then you lose pushrod length but what you are seeing seems a bit much.
The milled head would have made up the difference if there was a decrease in cam base circle.

HI Bob, X2 on the head milling and push Rod lenght they should not be to short. You might be off on your lifter preload adjustment too, it's real easy to over tighten the new Hydrolic lifters when they are dry. Check your adjustment procedure see below link for info. Good luck

Adjustment of Rocker Arms on the Small Six'es
ci/ValveAdj.html

bubba22349":xy2ib47e said:

HI Bob, X2 on the head milling and push Rod lenght they should not be to short. You might be off on your lifter preload adjustment too, it's real easy to over tighten the new Hydrolic lifters when they are dry. Check your adjustment procedure see below link for info. Good luck

Adjustment of Rocker Arms on the Small Six'es
ci/ValveAdj.html

Click to expand...

Hi @bubba,

The "pushrod seems too short" issue I reported happened with solid lifters, because I was using solid lifters to degree the cam (head on). I won't install the final hydraulic lifters until I am ready to assemble the engine for the final time (at the very least, more cleaning and painting is in order before I do that).

Thanks
Bob

Hi Bob, interesting well if the push rods are too short with the Solids than they will also be too short with the Hydrolic's. Do you happen to have an adjustable push Rod checking tool?

In order to get accurate readings with the head on remove the rocker arms and locate the dial indicator at the end of a pushrod.
Bolt a steel plate using two of the valve cover bolt holes on the pushrod side of the head for the magnetic base.

I know you said that you wanted the spring pressure to keep the lifter on the cam lobe but a lot of spring pressure can actually kick the cam backwards against the timing chain when the lifter is on the backside of the cam lobe.
Just use a little finger pressure to seat the lifter as you get close to the .050" point.

It is my opinion that the cam degreeing should be done with the head off...Cam card checking events are measured at the lifter, using a push rod to get it high enough to measure with the indicator is fine and should be a solid lifter...Clean off any thick cam lube and lube with oil only for checking...Make sure your indicator base and linkage is firm and not flexing...Fab or weld something up if it is...Your indicator should be inline with the pushrod and lifter...When going around a light touch of the finger on top of the indicator plunger should ensure that your lifter is tracking the cam....Basically what Paul said.

The smaller base circle is a definite thing and also the solid lifters may be shorter, i have seen that also.

Greetings Ford Six Fans:

I received some dual springs (CSC-TOY-SPG) and the machinist now has both the head and the dual springs. Reminder: the valve guides have already been machined .050 to give more clearance with the additional lift of the 280H cam. The machinist looked at the head (with the old single spring removed) and the dual spring and feels that the dual spring fits the retainer and fits around the valve guide ok.

One thing that concerns me is that Clay Smith's website mentions that the valve seats should be machined when installing these springs. I can't imagine why the valve seats would be machined to install these springs. I created another post to ask about this, but so far no one has responded. Also e-mailed Matt Cox at Vintage Inlines, so far he has not responded either.

There is a steel insert at the base of the spring area on the head that my machinist has not seen before. His plan is to let the inner springs ride on top of this steel insert. I don't know if the insert is just a snug fit around the valve guide, flush with the area at the base of the outer spring, or if it's countersunk into the head and possibly pressed in.



If no one (including Matt) responds, I expect I'll tell the machinist to go ahead and assemble the dual springs, and if no issues arise I'll try running them.

Thanks
Bob

Do not let the inner spring sit on the what you are calling the "Insert"!!!
It is actually part of the valve guide.
That is the part that must be machined flat to the rest of the spring seat area of the head.
That is what Clay Smith's website is referring to.

The spring is designed so that the inner coil sits on the same surface as the outer coil and the step in the retainer takes up the height difference between the inner and outer spring.
The spring pressure is rated with the inner and outer sitting on the same surface and having the inner spring sitting higher will increase the spring pressure and can cause inner spring bind.

The 300 six has a similar perch that is used to locate the single springs and needs to be machined flat for double springs.
We had a member install double spring letting the inner spring sit higher on the perch.
He wiped out the cam lobes and damaged some pushrods.

pmuller9":1ykrz7df said:

Do not let the inner spring sit on the what you are calling the "Insert"!!!
It is actually part of the valve guide.
That is the part that must be machined flat to the rest of the spring seat area of the head.
That is what Clay Smith's website is referring to.

The spring is designed so that the inner coil sits on the same surface as the outer coil and the step in the retainer takes up the height difference between the inner and outer spring.
The spring pressure is rated with the inner and outer sitting on the same surface and having the inner spring sitting higher will increase the spring pressure and can cause inner spring bind.

The 300 six has a similar perch that is used to locate the single springs and needs to be machined flat for double springs.
We had a member install double spring letting the inner spring sit higher on the perch.
He wiped out the cam lobes and bent some pushrods.

Click to expand...

@pmuller,

Thank you so much for this information! Without it, I would have let the machinist install the inner springs sitting on the "insert" / perch. This reminds me how this forum is priceless, the mistakes I (and possibly others) would make without this information.

Thanks again,
Bob

ya gotta ask 1st too Bob.
So cudos for U as well...
when U do "We all Learn"
( nevah saw dat earlier thread !
least as I recall).

pmuller9":ogyz94nh said:

Do not let the inner spring sit on the what you are calling the "Insert"!!!
It is actually part of the valve guide.
That is the part that must be machined flat to the rest of the spring seat area of the head.
That is what Clay Smith's website is referring to.

The spring is designed so that the inner coil sits on the same surface as the outer coil and the step in the retainer takes up the height difference between the inner and outer spring.
The spring pressure is rated with the inner and outer sitting on the same surface and having the inner spring sitting higher will increase the spring pressure and can cause inner spring bind.

The 300 six has a similar perch that is used to locate the single springs and needs to be machined flat for double springs.
We had a member install double spring letting the inner spring sit higher on the perch.
He wiped out the cam lobes and damaged some pushrods.

Click to expand...

@pmuller,

May I ask a bit more on this?

I just spoke to my machinist - he mentions that the valve guide is bronze, and the "insert" / locator in the perch area is steel. So, maybe that "insert" / locator came packaged with the valve guide, but how is it attached to the valve guide and does it extend below the spring perch into a pocket? My machinist is concerned that if he machines the "insert" / locator flush with the spring perch, there may be a thin piece of the "insert" / locator left that could crack, break or come loose later and become free floating debris inside the valve cover.

Does the above make sense?

Thanks
Bob

62Ranchero200":44nhpqb4 said:

May I ask a bit more on this?

I just spoke to my machinist - he mentions that the valve guide is bronze, and the "insert" / locator in the perch area is steel. So, maybe that "insert" / locator came packaged with the valve guide, but how is it attached to the valve guide and does it extend below the spring perch into a pocket? My machinist is concerned that if he machines the "insert" / locator flush with the spring perch, there may be a thin piece of the "insert" / locator left that could crack, break or come loose later and become free floating debris inside the valve cover.

Does the above make sense?

Thanks
Bob

Click to expand...

Bob
That insert is just a valve spring locator and should just pull off the bronze guides. Of course you will have to pull the seals.

If there is enough thickness it would be good to machine the OD to fit inside of the inner spring to act as a locator and keep the inner spring away from the seal.

pmuller9":pgxmdrvy said:

62Ranchero200":pgxmdrvy said:

May I ask a bit more on this?

I just spoke to my machinist - he mentions that the valve guide is bronze, and the "insert" / locator in the perch area is steel. So, maybe that "insert" / locator came packaged with the valve guide, but how is it attached to the valve guide and does it extend below the spring perch into a pocket? My machinist is concerned that if he machines the "insert" / locator flush with the spring perch, there may be a thin piece of the "insert" / locator left that could crack, break or come loose later and become free floating debris inside the valve cover.

Does the above make sense?

Thanks
Bob

Click to expand...

Bob
That insert is just a valve spring locator and should just pull off the bronze guides. Of course you will have to pull the seals.

If there is enough thickness it would be good to machine the OD to fit inside of the inner spring to act as a locator and keep the inner spring away from the seal.

Click to expand...

@pmuller,

Please forgive me for my limited understanding, as I have never modified a head in this way for heavier springs before.

It sounds to me that first we were saying that the "insert" / locator is part of the valve guide, and should be machined off.

Then, we were saying that it should just pull off of the bronze valve guides after pulling the seals (apparently, not part of the valve guide).

These two answers are quite different - so the last answer, the "insert" / locator should just pull off of the bronze valve guides after pulling the seats, is correct?

My machinist is a perfectionist and if I give him contradicting information he will question me and possibly delay the project. Presently, he's trying to contact Matt Cox, but I don't know if Matt is responding to messages, or if Matt is aware of all of these details about his head?

Thank you,
Bob