'62 Ranchero - 250 - Aluminum Head update

Bob, you lucked out by advancing the cam one tooth. 3 degrees is perfect.
However thats a black mark on Clay Smith Cams, that being one tooth off.
If you look at the cam i bet the lobe is not centered on the billet.
Their grinder head is way off.
I went through this with Schneider & they found their grinder chuck 10 degrees off. They have since corrected that condition.
Please contact Clay Smith & tell them to get their act together.
Or just don't go with Clay Smith. You see the inferior results.
 
After looking at the measured cam timing events all I can say is "That is one poor quality cam"

Why we continue to use Clay Smith cams is beyond me.
 
they gotta know it, ppl report back to them no?
Is there that small a market for these (i6 motors)? :unsure:
 
I would at the very least slide down to #6 and check lobes also, and realign the pointer, it will tell you if the crank is off.
 
@wsa111,

It was fortunate that the cam had the correct lift and duration, and only the timing needed to be corrected.

If and when I am ready to step up to a solid lifter cam with more lift, I probably will go with another cam manufacturer, perhaps Schneider. Even if this hadn't happened, Clay Smith has no solid lifter cams in the range I would be seeking in their catalog, but Schneider does.

@pmuller,

I initially went with Clay Smith because they have had a well developed product line for Falcon Sixes for over 20 years, and also because that's what Mike himself recommended to me back when I was dealing with him directly (2013-2014).

The cam issue could be as simple as the dowel pin hole is displaced about 14.5 degrees retarded from "straight up" timing, or about 18.5 degrees retarded from 4 degrees advanced (which is what I requested). Of course, saying that the dowel pin hole (which determines timing relationship to crankshaft) is displayed x degrees (relative to the lobe centers) is functionally equivalent to saying that the lobe centers are displaced the same amount of degrees (relative to the dowel pin).

@drag-200stang,

I located TDC on #1 multiple times with a piston stop - a thick steel bar attached over the head studs (which are still in the block) with a round magnet underneath:



I am certain that my TDC measurements are within 1 degree. Is that what you mean by "if the crank is off"?

Edit: While uncommon, advancing a cam one tooth to correct timing is not unheard of. Forum member WhitePony did so on his 200 back in July-August 2005 (I realize that the crankshaft degrees per tooth may be different on a 250 vs a 200 since the timing sets are different).

Thanks
Bob
 
Wow, seeing a cam that far off, I'd be checking every lobe, every cylinder.
 
Bob
It's not the cam position being that far off that bothers me. I've had some of the best make that error.
It's the actual lobe duration measurements and separation angles being off that is not excusable.
Clay Smith should have better control than this.

You took the readings by always turning the crank clockwise and never backing up counterclockwise?
The reason why I'm asking is I see duration discrepancies between the two reading for both the intake and exhaust.

On the first go around the intake .050" duration was 237 and the exhaust was 244. LSA 110
On the second the intake was 232 and the exhaust was 238. LSA 108.5

If this is a 280-10 cam then the intake lobe center should be at 106 which is 4 degrees advanced.
It the lobe center is at 105 then the cam is 5 degrees advanced.

If it was me I would go back and check the cam timing for both cylinders one and six.
Don't worry about the .006" readings.
 
What I meant was while you have the degree wheel at tdc 0 for #1 ,6 should also be tdc 0, so do piston stop deal and see if it is the same...I just find it interesting to see if the crank is indexed ok...And then see if #6 valve events match #1 as they should.
Your dial indicator must be very ridged, if not going up will lag behind and going down be about on track...It can be enough to be off .
AK Miller told be that cams for the small six are usually off , he said that 200 are indexed differently than a 250 but the cam co. just do both the same... Not sure if true...I do not care if the sprocket / cam is indexed off, as long as the lobes are right , I just adjust Till it is where I want it.
 
drag-200stang":3qbsoylp said:
What I meant was while you have the degree wheel at tdc 0 for #1 ,6 should also be tdc 0, so do piston stop deal and see if it is the same...I just find it interesting to see if the crank is indexed ok...And then see if #6 valve events match #1 as they should.
Your dial indicator must be very ridged, if not going up will lag behind and going down be about on track...It can be enough to be off .
AK Miller told be that cams for the small six are usually off , he said that 200 are indexed differently than a 250 but the cam co. just do both the same... Not sure if true...I do not care if the sprocket / cam is indexed off, as long as the lobes are right , I just adjust Till it is where I want it.
Click to expand...
Not acceptable, i would have gotten a RMA & ship that junk back to Clay Smith.
Bob just lucked out that it decreed in a tooth off.
If you look a the the cam from the timing gear end, i bet you could see it was ground off center of the billet..
Years ago i purchased a Sig Erson cam & you could see the lobes were not even close to the center of the billet.
I shipped it back at my own expense & got my money back.
 
I had an Erson cam that need one tooth off and an offset crank key and I then I found jumping anomalies on the lobes. Checked dbl checked, triple check. Pulling the cam and examining it between. Sent it back, they said they would fix it and send me the print out of it's check from the computer. They didn't. I got it back, no print out, checked it yet again, same cam same problems and a conversation or two later of hearing "its OK", I threw it in the scrap pile and called Schneider. I also sent that cam down to a grinder in Tacoma, can't remember the name but I talked to the owner before I sent it and they ended up not doing a damn thing either and blowing me off then sending it back. Didn't even look at it. After telling me on the phone, "you bet we'll check it out and regrind it if needed, whatever it takes". For some people if it isn't a V8 or whatever they're into they don't care about you and just blow you off and try and shine you on.
 
When it comes to camshaft timing events, I am challenged - no matter how much I learn about this or how many times I degree cams it remains confusing to me.

So those of you who are more familiar or comfortable with camshaft timing, please help me answer some questions I am curious about. Let me say that this post is entirely about the published specs for this cam, and not about my degreeing results at all.

I have reproduced the Clay Smith cam card for this cam (H-280-0-BHL), exactly as it came from Clay Smith, but with the addition of "Descriptor" columns that I need to remind myself about the terminology that cam manufacturers use (degrees BTDC for intake opening, degrees ABDC for intake closing, degrees BBDC for exhaust opening, degrees ATDC for exhaust closing). It's easier for me to wrap my limited mind around camshaft timing if all events are referred to in the same coordinate system - ATDC.

Notice the Centerline Timing Events row, with values of 108 INT and 112 EXH. What does this indicate? To me, this may indicate that there must be at least some difference between the camshaft timing on intake vs. exhaust:



Let me put on my mad scientist hat here: If Clay Smith cam lobes are symmetrical (as several here have stated), then it looks to me that the intake centerline should be in the exact center of the .050 duration, which should be 108 degrees at the .050 numbers on the cam card: (assuming that the cam is ground straight up, or before any advance is ground into the cam)

Intake Opens (.050): 7.5 BTDC (-7.5 ATDC)
Intake Closes (.050): 43.5 ABDC (223.5 ATDC)
Duration @ .050: 223.5 - -7.5 = 231 degrees
Half (Midpoint) of Duration @ .050: 115.5 degrees
Intake Centerline: -7.5 + 115.5 = 108

Poke holes in my theory.

If the above is correct, I'm going to suggest that the cam is called a "110 degree centerline" cam, but the 110 is an average of the 108 degree intake centerline and a 112 degree exhaust centerline.

Thanks
Bob
 
Bob
Your numbers are good.

Just looking at the cam by itself if you were to use a protractor you would see that there is 110 degrees between the exhaust and intake lobe centers.
In this case you would be looking at the lobe peaks through your clear protractor sitting at the end of the cam.
That angle can't physically be changed no matter what happens during the cam degreeing procedure.

Once you put the cam in the engine you look the cam in relation to crankshaft.
If the exhaust lobe center is at 110 degrees BTDC and the intake is at 110 degrees ATDC the cam is centered around TDC or considered to be "straight up".

If you move the cam 2 degrees advanced in relation to the crankshaft the intake lobe center moves to 108 degrees ATDC and the exhaust lobe center moves to 112 degrees BTDC but there is still 110 degrees of camshaft degrees (220 degrees crankshaft) between lobe centers because as previously stated, that angle can't change.

62Ranchero200":jd37e5yr said:
If the above is correct, I'm going to suggest that the cam is called a "110 degree centerline" cam, but the 110 is an average of the 108 degree intake centerline and a 112 degree exhaust centerline.
Click to expand...
The "0" in Grind # H-280-0-BHL means 110.
That is the LSA (Lobe Separation Angle) and is the same as your suggestion to call the cam a "110 degree centerline" cam.
Cam companies use LSA to specify this parameter

Does this help?
 
pmuller9":ir6d1ucl said:
Bob
Your numbers are good.

Just looking at the cam by itself if you were to use a protractor you would see that there is 110 degrees between the exhaust and intake lobe centers.
In this case you would be looking at the lobe peaks through your clear protractor sitting at the end of the cam.
That angle can't physically be changed no matter what happens during the cam degreeing procedure.

Once you put the cam in the engine you look the cam in relation to crankshaft.
If the exhaust lobe center is at 110 degrees BTDC and the intake is at 110 degrees ATDC the cam is centered around TDC or considered to be "straight up".

If you move the cam 2 degrees advanced in relation to the crankshaft the intake lobe center moves to 108 degrees ATDC and the exhaust lobe center moves to 112 degrees BTDC but there is still 110 degrees of camshaft degrees (220 degrees crankshaft) between lobe centers because as previously stated, that angle can't change.

62Ranchero200":ir6d1ucl said:
If the above is correct, I'm going to suggest that the cam is called a "110 degree centerline" cam, but the 110 is an average of the 108 degree intake centerline and a 112 degree exhaust centerline.
Click to expand...
The "0" in Grind # H-280-0-BHL means 110.
That is the LSA (Lobe Separation Angle) and is the same as your suggestion to call the cam a "110 degree centerline" cam.
Cam companies use LSA to specify this parameter

Does this help?
Click to expand...

@pmuller,

So on my first question, I think you're explaining that the "Centerline Timing Events" section of the cam card is presented as if the cam is two degrees advanced, although nowhere is this explicitly stated. Two degrees of advance would move the intake centerline from 110 degrees ATDC to 108 degrees ATDC, and move the exhaust centerline from 110 degrees BTDC to 112 degrees BTDC.

I want to add to this discussion that the most error-prone parts of the degree process for me are the closing numbers (at .050 and .006). With no valve springs to push the lifter down, I'm certain that the lifter experiences at least some friction in the lifter bore and indicates closing numbers later than it should (in terms of degrees). I would like to exert gentle downward pressure on the pushrod by hand while this is happening, as has been suggested, but I am working alone and I am a little busy turning the crankshaft (which requires two hands, or the socket will pop off of the crankshaft bolt) and watching the dial indicator, while trying to "sneak up on" and avoid shooting past the positions of interest.

After two months of "stay at home" together, my wife and I would kill each other if I tried to recruit her for this, because she doesn't understand the process or the need for it.

Thanks
Bob
 
Bob
The cam card shows where they want the cam positioned not necessarily just for the cam specs.
It's better if they don't use relative terms like advanced or retarded. Absolute points are less confusing.

The cam lobe lift is .320" which is only using 1/3 the dial indicator travel.
If you want more spring pressure on the lifter zero the indicator when it is at .500" and use the last half of the indicator travel.

Once you have it zeroed on the heal of the cam lobe turn the crankshaft a few revolutions to check for repeatability back to zero.
Look at lobe lift while you are doing so.
 
Greetings Ford Six Fans,

Last Friday, I finally received the aluminum head back from the machine shop. To remove the steel spring locator that must be removed to install the dual springs, the machinist ultimately had to drive all of the valve guides out, so he decided to replace them and regrind the valve seats. The head had already been milled .056 (chambers from 55 to 47 cc) and ported (just a "stage 1" port). So the only thing about the head that hasn't been replaced or updated is the valves.







The aluminum head update took a total of 2 1/2 months (in two installments) and cost about $1,200.

I suspect that I may need longer pushrods, because the new, higher lift cam may have a smaller base circle. My current setup:

1.6:1 adjustable stamped steel rockers (not roller rockers)
Custom Smith Brothers cup and ball pushrods
New cam has .320 lift at lobe/lifter/pushrod compared to old cam which had .300 lift
At the moment, there are still two solid lifters in #1 lifter bores from degreeing the cam
I have adjustable pushrods for measuring

Is there any way to measure the pushrod length with hydraulic lifters? If not, I would need to put the head on with the solid lifters in the bores, measure the pushrod length, then remove the head again to finally install the hydraulic lifters, is that right?

Thanks
Bob
 
Excellent Bob glad to hear the head work is now finished looks great! Yes you can use the adjustable push rod checker with the Hydrolic Lifters and you would need to use the lifters you plan to use to get an accurate push Rod measurement. At this point with all the heads machine work complete, cam has been degreed, you can now install your new Hydrolic lifters, install the head gasket, bolt and torque the head down onto the block, install intake etc. finishing nearly all the engines reassembly for the last time except for rocker arms and push rods.

With the engines number 1 cylinder set on TDC you can use the adjustable push Rod checker to get the new push Rod lenght at Zero Lash, without any preloading of the lifter and then add to that measurement the correct amount of lifter pre load for (those stamped steel rockers have some pictures of them?) if they are non adjustable rockers or with the adjustable type rockers make sure that you have the adjuster screws set so that you still have a good range of adjustment, i.e. Adjuster set to higher end (upper 1/3 of travel) this is at least a full turn of adjuster screw or more past the mid point of the adjustment screws lenght. Hydrolic lifters will have from .120 to .180 of travel check the manufacture of yours for correct info on travel. For an example let's use the .120 then you would divide that by half and add + .060 to the push Rod length over the Zero setting for lifter preload with a non adjustable rocker arm. or it will also allow a range of travel using 1/4 to 1 full turn of the rocker arm adjustment screw periodically for the life of the engine. Hope that is of some help best of luck (y) :nod: Edited
 
@bubba,

If I remember correctly, the last time I installed new hydraulic lifters, I placed them in a pan of oil and used a pushrod on the top of the lifters to pump oil into them before installing - is this necessary or helpful?

Thank you,
Bob
 
Hi Bob, In my opinion that isn't nessisary or helpful for a couple reasons. Beyond cam break in lube on the cam lobes and the base of lifter plus a squirt or two of oil to the outside of lifter the body before installing them into the block is all that's needed the oil pump will take care of all the rest when you pre lube the engine before its first start up. Besides If you happen to have the adjustable type rocker arms when you pump the lifter up (fill) with oil it makes adjusting the rocker arms harder being able to feel for the very slight drag at zero lash before doing the 1 full turn of the adjuster screw for preload. Best of luck (y) :nod:
 
:oops:
bubba22349":130jubpa said:
Hi Bob, In my opinion that isn't nessisary or helpful for a couple reasons. Beyond cam break in lube on the cam lobes and the base of lifter plus a squirt or two of oil to the outside of lifter the body before installing them into the block is all that's needed the oil pump will take care of all the rest when you pre lube the engine before its first start up. Besides If you happen to have the adjustable type rocker arms when you pump the lifter up (fill) with oil it makes adjusting the rocker arms harder being able to feel for the very slight drag at zero lash before doing the 1 full turn of the adjuster screw for preload. Best of luck (y) :nod:
Click to expand...

@bubba,

I asked Clay Smith Cams how much travel the plungers on those lifters had and they responded that the lifters need .020-.025 preload.

Thanks
Bob
 
Yes correct if we are only talking about the lifter preload, this amounts to the one adistional turn of the rocker arms adjuster screw after you have found the zero lash point. Though when we are talking about how much total travel of the the Hydrolic lifters piston inside the lifter, this is different. They will have a total travel of from a minimum of .120 to a maximum of .180 before bottoming out solid. Granted knowing this is more important when figuring out the push Rod length for the "?Non Adjustable" Rocker Arms than for the adjustable rocker arms. :shock: Two different things but it's not really the answer to the question you asked them. This is kind of like asking about what MPG this car or truck gets and being told you will get 500 miles on a tank of gas! Did you get your push Rod lenght figured out yet? Best of luck (y) :nod:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top