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baggin' the waggin phase 1 (rear)

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OzHemi
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Post #51 by OzHemi » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:24 pm

Broom handle eh? Wonder where you got that idea? :hmmm: :rolflmao:

Looks good ! The angle does not look too bad at all really..
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Post #52 by LaGrasta » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:17 am

Kai, I just noticed the small rear end. Are you not planning on an 8"-9" rear? As they are easily had, I would highly advise it.
1963 1/2 Falcon 170/C4/8" (alt, a/c, Petronix/42v coil/8mm wires, 16" electric fan, electric fuel pump, Holley 1940, K&N Harley air filter, power dual m/c, 11" disc, 3" drop, Shelby drop, white tuck/roll, Moon steering wheel, '59 Caddy tail lights, fishtail exhaust tip, shaved trim, handles, cowl, fuel, dash, 4" radius trunk/door corners, power windows, 600w iPod system)

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falconizer_62
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Post #53 by falconizer_62 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:56 am

The rear end is a 7.75 out of a Ford Ranger. (It is not the stock tin hat unit). I was told that these are more than strong enough for the six-cylinder that's going to there. Most of the 8 inch rear ends available are too wide. The Ranger rear end is even a half inch narrower than the original falcon rear which is much more desirable when choosing rims and tires. The 8 inch from the maverick I believe is close, but these are a little harder to find. Plus, this one came with an extra gear set, so I don't have to buy those either.
To be honest, I would rather have the pinion centered, which I would get from the 8 inch as well. I am going to order the wheels on Saturday, so if this is it going to work now's the time to figure it out :-).
any more input on this out there???

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Post #54 by OzHemi » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:58 am

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falconizer_62
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Post #55 by falconizer_62 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:15 pm

That one seems to be an inch wider than mine. I called the dude to find out how he measured it cuz there are many ways to measure the backing plates. Hopefully he'll call me back with the axle flange to axle flange measurements...
hmmmmmm...
last-minute changes make me a bit edgy, but many times they are the best choice...
again, hmmmmm....

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Post #56 by OzHemi » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:17 pm

Oh, and on another tangent...I have a catalog here from Speedway motors (ones you sent a link too on the panhard bar) and they have a bunch of different sizes,materials and length of tubing pre made basically just for what you want, with left and right threads in them for rod ends, etc (pretty cheap too_ :thumbup:
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Post #57 by OzHemi » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:29 pm

I'm off to my wheel guy in Torrance..going to check and see how the custom ones for the Camaro are coming! 8)
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Post #58 by falconizer_62 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:31 pm

That's odd, because I called them and they said they couldn't make that Rod any longer, hence the short broom handle (thanks for that idea by the way Oz... genius)

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Post #59 by falconizer_62 » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:56 pm

OzHemi wrote:I'm off to my wheel guy in Torrance..going to check and see how the custom ones for the Camaro are coming! 8)

you got to let me know when you get those things!!! I am supposed to go order my rims on Saturday, but what's the diff up in the air(no pun intended), it's hard to say.

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Post #60 by ludwig » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:27 pm

Is that all the drop you are going for? 2"? With all that work, wouldn't you want to get it way up high too?

On the other hand, I wish I could weld. It looks really nice.
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Post #61 by OzHemi » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:38 pm

On the other hand, I wish I could weld.


I couldn't live without my welder now :lol: :lol:

They really are handy once you have one around for abit..



you got to let me know when you get those things!!! I am supposed to go order my rims on Saturday, but what's the diff up in the air(no pun intended), it's hard to say.


He has the centers all done (CNC machined and brushed.) Just has to assemble them and I wanted to double check the back spacing info with him.. they will be 18"x8 and 18x 9 (the car has 11" on the rear now!)
He says they'll be ready to go by middle of next week 8)
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Post #62 by addo » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:41 pm

And of course you will be posting pictures! :twisted:

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OzHemi
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Post #63 by OzHemi » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:45 pm

addo wrote:And of course you will be posting pictures! :twisted:


Why post pics? Falconizer is 5 minutes from here, he can come over and see them :rolflmao:

Here is the car they are for...it's coming along well.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2682662
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Post #64 by falconizer_62 » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:36 am

ludwig wrote:Is that all the drop you are going for? 2"? With all that work, wouldn't you want to get it way up high too?

you are correct.
At this point, I am trying to get the diff located on the arms properly and figure out the geometry of the pan hard Rod. Then I'll install a pin through the arms that will locate the diff in it's proper place. Then, I'll be able to move the axle snubbers up a bit. It can only go up till something touches the floor, then back off an 1/8th. i'm cool with that. Once I get the wheels and tires, I will be able to figure out where ride height is supposed to be. At this point, it's an estimation.
Oz found an 8 inch maverick rear for sale by my house for 200 bucks, so I have to decide quickly what I'm going to do. :?:
The conundrum is this...
the 8" has 2.9 gears, so I will have to buy a new gear set and probably rebuild the pumpkin as well is change the axle bearings. After the $200 price, it adds up quick. The Ranger rear that I have came with another gear set that will work with the overdrive tranny and the tire size that I plan on using. it's out of a newer car and doesn't need an overhaul.
but...
the 8" has a centered pinion, is stronger and looks more "proper" if that makes sense.
the deal breaker seems to be this... how strong are the 7 3/4" ranger diffs? can i pull a small (but old and probably heavier than a modern equivalent) trailer, or a race car with out breaking it.
i am supposed to have the guy make the wheels this Saturday, so it would be nice to have this rear end thing figured out. Sorry for the book, but it's a bit on my mind...
this is not the fun part of a project

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Post #65 by LaGrasta » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:43 am

the fact the rear is from a truck, makes me think it's probably stout enough for towing and such.
As for the $200 8". offer the guy $100 and see what happens. If you get it, leave the 2.9 gears in it and see what happens with that. You may find you have enough power to pull no problem and get great mpg to boot. I'm running 3.00 in mine and I only have a 170. I have a clean 2.79 center in my garage. I was considering it for even better mpg.
1963 1/2 Falcon 170/C4/8" (alt, a/c, Petronix/42v coil/8mm wires, 16" electric fan, electric fuel pump, Holley 1940, K&N Harley air filter, power dual m/c, 11" disc, 3" drop, Shelby drop, white tuck/roll, Moon steering wheel, '59 Caddy tail lights, fishtail exhaust tip, shaved trim, handles, cowl, fuel, dash, 4" radius trunk/door corners, power windows, 600w iPod system)

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Post #66 by falconizer_62 » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:42 pm

thanks LaGrasta...good advice. I'll see if he bites at a hundred :) . The thing about the ratio is that I'm going to have an overdrive tranny, and it will probably bog the six down.

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Post #67 by OzHemi » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:50 am

So what did you decide ? Or still thinking? :D



(PS..I got the Camaro bumper and grill done and mounted here now, so the front of the car is all done! :thumbup: )
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Post #68 by falconizer_62 » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:49 am

[quote="OzHemi"]So what did you decide ? Or still thinking? :D
quote]

I am going to keep it.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/show ... ost2418906

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Post #69 by OzHemi » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:23 pm

Cool deal ,sounds like it should be plenty strong then for the wagon ! :thumbup:
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Post #70 by falconizer_62 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:13 am

here's what i got so far...
the rear is looking good to me. the tires are 195 75 15s and are 26.15" tall.
this seems too tall for the front. i will have to set ride height too high to be able to turn it. it seems that the wheel opening would need to be enlarged for this to work. it may need to anyway for proportion's sake. (makes the 4 door not seem so long)
i seem to have 2 options for smaller front tires...
165 80 15 (on a 6" rim?) with a 25.25" diameter or...
a different manufacturer/tread, 185 65 15 with a 24.45" diameter.
if any of you know about tires and falcons feel free to chime in, as they get expensive to ship and restock, and once mounted on the wheel, i can't return them...
here's what it looks like
rear... fits perfecto, but hard to remove
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front- aired down...
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from rear
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from front
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Post #71 by falcon fanatic » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:14 am

Badass! Go with 185s in the front. 165s are just too narrow for a car that heavy. your handling will suffer, and you will have to take those wonderful SoCal freeway interchanges at a crawl...
'63 Futura Convertible. Disc/drum, Bilsteins, beefy swaybars, #480 springs, roller or spherical everything up front, HD shackles on stock springs out back. Megasquirt FI on ported, big valve aussie head w/ roller rockers; 10:1 6000rpm engine; 264/274-12*; C-4, Maverick 8" 3.25 W/trac-lok and perimeter frame inside the unibody. More to come...
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Post #72 by kevinl1058 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:00 pm

Well, I would keep your set up you will find that you will have some varince with your ride hieght. With the 18's I'm running I just pump up for hard turns but for normal driving with minor turns I"ll roll with the wheels tucked. If you wnat a bit more turning radius you could think about narrowing your arms an inch. I talked with Kevin at hackersparadise.biz who does the boxing of the control arms basically narrowing the front end. He has a wagon on his site under customers cars that he did that has a 18/20 combo and looks sweet that is bagged as well. He is great at returning emails so contact him with you ideas.
Kevin

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Post #73 by CoupeBoy » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:26 pm

I went out and looked at some of the work done on that website, and I thank whoever fixed the URL, but I was wondering when he is 'shortening' the control arms that has to be bad for the suspension geometry. Sure is some nice looking work though.

-ron

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Post #74 by falconizer_62 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:54 pm

kevinl1058,
what is your overall tire diameter with the 18'?

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Post #75 by OzHemi » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:57 pm

You get my voice mail today? :P

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Post #76 by kevinl1058 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:12 am

I can't recall the overall diameter but I am running a 215/40(F) and 225/40(R) tire. 18's on all 4 corners. I'm lookng to possibly sell the 18's for a 17" set.

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Post #77 by yodabiri » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:05 pm

That is gonna be one sweet looking falcon!
65 mustang coupe with a 250 (DUI) and a t5 with a 7.25 rear end (soon to be 8.8 ).

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Post #78 by kevinl1058 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:03 pm

I agree that your wagon is going to look nice. I love the white wall and smoothie look. I'm tempted to go that route with a red center steele wheel.Image

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Post #79 by LaGrasta » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:52 pm

Sheesh! it's looking good! Where'd you end up buying the rims?
1963 1/2 Falcon 170/C4/8" (alt, a/c, Petronix/42v coil/8mm wires, 16" electric fan, electric fuel pump, Holley 1940, K&N Harley air filter, power dual m/c, 11" disc, 3" drop, Shelby drop, white tuck/roll, Moon steering wheel, '59 Caddy tail lights, fishtail exhaust tip, shaved trim, handles, cowl, fuel, dash, 4" radius trunk/door corners, power windows, 600w iPod system)

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Post #80 by falconizer_62 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:35 pm

LaGrasta wrote:Where'd you end up buying the rims?

the wheelsmith in santa ana. no shipping and he stamped a few for test fitting for me. great to deal with. :D

kevin, that falcon is sweet!!! red wheels look real good against black!!

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Post #81 by OzHemi » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:27 am

Ol' Wheelsmith Bob... I used to get abit of stuff off him actually..cool deal.
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Post #82 by kevinl1058 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 am

Yeah, The wheels are Billet Specialties.. and you can see that the 18's fill the wheel wells up nice going with a 17 would sit a bit lower at ride hwight and when the car is dumped. The only thing is that I won't sell these until I go with a 5 lug conversion. more wheel options with a 5 lug. My vision is the same wheels as the wagon but a red center 17 x 7 front and a 17 x 9 rear ..
Kev

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Post #83 by falconizer_62 » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:40 pm

well, I finally got back around to working on the project again.:D
I needed to tie the rear arms and mounts to the front frame rails, as well as box in the rockers. The unibody on these cars suck. I had to remove the transmission cross member, because it was too narrow to clear the transmission. So it could definitely use all the support it can get.
I will usually build a piece in the car and leave it rough, just so that I know it fits. Then cut it out final weld it and finish it.

Image

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I will usually beef it up and strengthen it at this point.
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cutting out the cross member was a major headache. It took forever to get it all cleaned up. There's really not enough room to build a different one around the transmission, so I hope that the transmission mount will suffice. Especially if I tie it to the frame and the subframe connectors.
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it felt really good to finally see that thing on the ground.

I used a bottle jack and a push bar to make sure there were no gaps before welding in the subframe connectors.

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gap-less!
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I then re-plated the bottom of the original frame rail, so I have a nice flat place to build the tranny cross member.

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and here's where I left off...
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I kind of need to finalize the transmission mounts before I can finish the rear suspension. I need to have the pinion angle set up before I can weld all my brackets to the diff. I'm still waiting on dropped spindles for the front, and I will have to narrow my front suspension, so there will be more saga to follow...

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Post #84 by LaGrasta » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:57 am

nice to get another update with this major project. As for the dropped spindles... discbrakeswap.com is certainly taking their time!
1963 1/2 Falcon 170/C4/8" (alt, a/c, Petronix/42v coil/8mm wires, 16" electric fan, electric fuel pump, Holley 1940, K&N Harley air filter, power dual m/c, 11" disc, 3" drop, Shelby drop, white tuck/roll, Moon steering wheel, '59 Caddy tail lights, fishtail exhaust tip, shaved trim, handles, cowl, fuel, dash, 4" radius trunk/door corners, power windows, 600w iPod system)

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Post #85 by falconizer_62 » Tue May 20, 2008 9:23 pm

Here is a bit of an update...
It ends with air bags, so I guess this thread isn't too misnamed.
Before I can weld the perches to the axle, and pin the arms for the perches, I need to set up the pinion angle. Before I do this, I cannot put any mounting points on the axle tube (for a pan hard rod, shock mounts, etc.). Soooo, I had to final mount the tranny to lock in the driveline angle. All the research I did, told me that the mounting point for the automatic overdrive trans (which has yet to arrive) and the three speed trans (,which is what I have) are the same.
So, I bolted up the three speed and went to work building the mount. It had to be extra beefy, because it had to take up the slack for the transmission tunnel cross-member that I had to cut out for clearance. ( I wouldn't want the thing to taco). The whole mess would be secured to both the frame and the subframe connector.
Well, Ozhemi is in Oz, and grabbed me an overdrive trans that I wanted, ((thanks, you rock!!!)) but the mounting points are 4 inches back!:eek:
It turns out, that I can still use the cross member I made, I will just need to make new frame plates when the container arrives from Australia. While waiting for the trans-to arrive, I started mounting the bag plates to the arms and the frame.
To those who are interested, here is the saga unfolding...

First of all, I needed a quarter inch plate with a square hole in it. (It's how the Aussie trans mount is made) I drilled a round hole, scribed a square around it and cut it with a hand file. It was a lot easier than I thought it would be.
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I cut and welded .120 angle iron to it, cut at a 45° angle.

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(I wish I made the center notch a bit bigger for the washer)

I figured how much of a step up I would need, cut square pieces of an appropriate length, and welded it to another 45° cut.

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I then cut a little piece to fill the gap,beveled it, welded it up and dressed it.
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We made some frame plates to tie the cross member to both frame rails. ( these unfortunately will no longer work, but I will probably still put at least one per side in to help strengthen the subframe, as I already have them cut.

Image

We then bolted what we had to the tranny, and tacked everything up to the frame plates.
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We then took the thing out and could attach the vertical ears, throw that baby on a drill press, and drill straight holes through the plates the ears and the mount.
After that, I could cut the sleeves that went between the ears and the two angle iron pieces, run a bolt through the whole mess, and tack the sleeves in.
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One on top, one on the bottom, and final weld the whole thing up.
Then spray, what will be known as the "inside" with weld through primer.
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We then bent and formed the sheet metal around it.
Image
...welded it and dressed the welds, and boxed the ends. We then drilled to 3/4" holes in the bottom, attached some magnets, and hit it with a rubber mallet and shook it for a while to pick up all of the slag. After that we filled it up with expandable spray foam and put on some plugs.
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voilà
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I am done with the cross member until the tranny arrives from Oz, so I could work on the rear bag mounts, which has nothing to do with pinion angle.
I tacked to the bag plates to the arms, and bolted the top plate to the bag as well. I will need to make some access holes in the frame to be able to remove the bags later.


Here is where I'm picking up at the rear and again. :-)
Image

peace

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Post #86 by OzHemi » Wed May 21, 2008 5:47 am

Dang, I better hurry up and get home so I can get caught up on the project! :P

(I'll be home a week from Thursday actually..and a whole container of goodies is on the water now heading home ! )
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Post #87 by papawfalcon » Wed May 21, 2008 10:23 pm

I guess I missed the imfomation on the OZ tranny you are going to use.I read that it is a overdrive.So this tranny is 3-sp od or auto od and is it the gear ratio or duability or what that makes it special.Or it like the rest of us it's what make our FALCONS special.LOVE your wagon.Nice work .Thanks for the imformation Ken N.
FALCONS AND RANCHERO'S FOREVER

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Post #88 by falconizer_62 » Thu May 22, 2008 2:22 am

it is a newer and upgraded version that they offered with my motor. I do believe the overdrive unit is a four speed. The overdrive is so you can drive at highway speeds, which nowadays is around 80 mph, without the engine rpm screaming, and the gas needle plummeting towards E. It should be an all-around better ride. :-)
peace

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Post #89 by pikesan » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:42 am

Kai,
You're on it! That's gonna be a cool wagon.

You've got me thinking of going with a ranger rear too. That way I can get 5 lug (right?) and even get a little bigger wheel in there. I've also heard from Mr. Freeze at MyRideisMe that changing a tire is no fun when you've got it all bagged or even just lowered.

What a great job of documenting what you're doing. Thanks!
(and on a wagon too!!)
pikesan
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Post #90 by pikesan » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:47 am

falconizer_62 wrote:it is a newer and upgraded version that they offered with my motor. I do believe the overdrive unit is a four speed. The overdrive is so you can drive at highway speeds, which nowadays is around 80 mph, without the engine rpm screaming, and the gas needle plummeting towards E. It should be an all-around better ride. :-)
peace


There's all kinds of speed/rpm calculators out there. I'd figure it out. You'll need:
*gear ratios of A/T
* tire dynamic rolling radius (I can help with that if you have trouble finding it, it's not simply the diameter)
* Rear diff ratio

From there, plug in a speed and find the rpm or use the rpm to find a speed.

Sometimes O/D's are set up to use low (number) gears (like the Nissan Titan has a 2.9 and 3.3 final drive ratio with a 5 speed A/T) and some are set up for higher, like the new Toyota Tundra. It uses a 4.3 with a 6 A/T in their tow package!

That's why I'd plug in the gears and figure it out.
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Post #91 by CoupeBoy » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:54 am

pikesan wrote:Sometimes O/D's are set up to use low (number) gears (like the Nissan Titan has a 2.9 and 3.3 final drive ratio with a 5 speed A/T) and some are set up for higher, like the new Toyota Tundra. It uses a 4.3 with a 6 A/T in their tow package!

That's why I'd plug in the gears and figure it out.
My '06 Equinox has 2.79 gears, a 5spd automagic but there is no overdrive, 5th is direct 1:1 with locked torque converter. I didn't know that when I bought it, but I think that is the way to go, less gears to turn at highway speed, which should mean less power lost to the transmission.

-ron

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Post #92 by falconizer_62 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:44 am

thanks a lot for the advice! I will definitely have to figure that out sometime. I think I have a set of 3.20 or around there, gears, that came with the diff. The tire is also pretty tall, and it needs to be able to tow a trailer, so that's definitely worth having right.

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Post #93 by falconizer_62 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:49 am

pikesan wrote:Kai,
You're on it! That's gonna be a cool wagon.

You've got me thinking of going with a ranger rear too. That way I can get 5 lug (right?) and even get a little bigger wheel in there. I've also heard from Mr. Freeze at MyRideisMe that changing a tire is no fun when you've got it all bagged or even just lowered.

What a great job of documenting what you're doing. Thanks!
(and on a wagon too!!)
pikesan

thanks for the kind words.
yes, the Ranger is a five lug, and you can bolt on the 10 inch Mustang brakes. I'll let you know how much of a PITA the offset pumpkin is for the drive line set up.
as far as changing a tire goes, it is going to be a procedure, but I'm going to try to minimize it with some quick release pins in key places. we will see how that ends up working out.
peace

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kevinl1058
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FRONT SET UP

Post #94 by kevinl1058 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:41 pm

WHAT ARE YOU RUNNING UP FRONT FOR YOUR AIR SET UP?

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Post #95 by pikesan » Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:20 pm

falconizer_62 wrote: thanks for the kind words.
yes, the Ranger is a five lug, and you can bolt on the 10 inch Mustang brakes. I'll let you know how much of a PITA the offset pumpkin is for the drive line set up.
as far as changing a tire goes, it is going to be a procedure, but I'm going to try to minimize it with some quick release pins in key places. we will see how that ends up working out.
peace


Kai,
someone here might correct me, but I think almost ALL rear axles are offset a little. With no angle at the u-joint, either up down or side to side, the wobble wouldn't happen in the u-joint and there'd be trouble, which I think is excessive wear cause the bearing's wouldn't move. Check this out.. it's off topic, but says there's a MINIMUM of .5 degrees angle needed between the rear axle and the drive shaft: http://www.classicchevy5speed.com/files ... 111606.pdf

So the offset is not abnormal, it just might cause trouble with the tunnel. You should see the tunnel in my 61 Rambler American! It was hooked to a straight 6 and is offset all the way down the car! That should be fun!
Pike
See all my cars here: Pikesan's Garage What's in your garage?

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falconizer_62
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Re: FRONT SET UP

Post #96 by falconizer_62 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:23 am

kevinl1058 wrote:WHAT ARE YOU RUNNING UP FRONT FOR YOUR AIR SET UP?


in front, I am using the airlift series bags with integral shocks. I will also need some lowered spindles, and I will need to narrow my front suspension by 2 inches, as well as re-angle all the A-arms.
I have not started on all this yet, as I have been waiting and am looking for cheaper spindles than Fatman has.

...I know the pumpkin needs to have some offset, but the Ranger offset is a bit extreme, as it has to account for a gas tank that runs down the middle of the truck. it mostly interferes with the tunnel at the back though, which is under the back seat it should be no problem to hack...

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Post #97 by kevinl1058 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:00 pm

what size unit did you go with the medium or short air over shock?

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falconizer_62
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Post #98 by falconizer_62 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:05 pm

medium

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Post #99 by pikesan » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:23 pm

I visited this topic to see if Kai had done anything more to his wagon and found the link to hackerparadise.biz. That dude does some nice work with air ride! Check out this falcon wagon: http://hackersparadise.biz/2_41.html
See all my cars here: Pikesan's Garage What's in your garage?

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Post #100 by Falcon Ranch » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:22 am

A very awesome project!!...I too am about to build a similar set-up on my '61 Ranchero...the pan rod or track bar should be mounted as low as possible and be as long as possible...I am installing a Maverick 4 lug rear in mine with air bags...2600# bags...I like how you built the rear arms :D is there any particular reason why you built new front spring mounts?...were yours rusted?...the pics you had looked like they were in good condition...as long as the track bar is in place, the front stock mounts would have sufficed...I know that there is extra load applied to the front mounts with the bag set-up, but the track bar would avoid that extra stress.

Any way you have a really nice project going on and looking towards more pics :D

Dave 8)

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