Test Results - Does10s (dyno)

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Test Results - Does10s (dyno)

Post #1 by Does10s » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:54 am

Well we took Kelly's car to IA Performance here in Tucson yesterday to do a couple of pulls. This is the same dyno we used last time with the log head.
The drivetrain is exactly the same as before except for the ClassicInlines aluminum head, Oz intake and Holley 450 CFM carb.
Here are the results: (numbers are at the rear tires, not flywheel)
Run #1: Peak HP = 323@4500rpm, Peak torque=480@2750rpm.
Run #2: Peak HP = 318@4700rpm, Peak Torque = 502@2650rpm.

All I did between the two pulls was reduce the timing retard .25 degrees/lb of boost.

Here are the log head results:
Run #1: Peak HP=283@4800rpm, Peak Torque=416@2700rpm
Run #2: Peak HP=270@4800rpm, Peak Torque=437@2575rpm.

If I compare the log and alum head torque curves at the same rpm, say 4000, then I get a much better picture.
At 4k rpm the best log torque number was: 325ft/lbs.
The best Alum. head torque number was: 405ft/lbs.

So the torque curve is now much flatter! Much more usable area under the curve. This would explain our increase in 1/8 mile speeds.

Our Air/fuel ratio was fairly stable at 11:1 running nothing but E85. So I'm going to reduce the jets a little to lean it just a bit. This should help pick up a few more HP.
All of the above pulls were made at approx. 17lbs. of boost. We did get a boost spike of 18.8lbs at about 5k rpm on the first pull with the alum. head. But according to the numbers it didn't effect the outcome. We were probably already past the cam profile. New cam will be on order soon.

I'll see if I can scan the charts in and I'll post them.
I think that you N/A guys will see more percentage increase than we got with the head swap. So I take this to mean that boosting a log head really helps it's flow characteristics over boosting a "good flowing" head.

If you look at 5.0 head swaps, you'll see the same basic 40-50hp increase that we got with Mike's head.
So I think we're very happy with the results.
We'll keep trying!
Later,
Will
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Post #2 by Mustang Boy » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:30 pm

wow that is great and pretty soon youll be in the 10's
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Post #3 by Anlushac11 » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:03 pm

:shockin: :party:

Thats pretty darn good. Makes me want the aluminum head all that much more.

Thinkin Mikes gonna have to stock a turbo header. People gonna scramble for Aluminum ehad and turbo after seein those numbers.

Very well done!
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Post #4 by Funky Cricket » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:45 pm

wonder what kind of number a built N/A EFI motor can pull....

that trq is through the roof!!! that's sweet.

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Post #5 by woodbutcher » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm

:) Will and Kelly.Outstanding.Keep up the good work.
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Post #6 by Mustangaroo » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:59 pm

Here are the results: (numbers are at the rear tires, not flywheel)
Run #1: Peak HP = 323@4500rpm, Peak torque=480@2750rpm.
Run #2: Peak HP = 318@4700rpm, Peak Torque = 502@2650rpm.


Will,
Great job, can't wait till Azcoupe ships thoses new heads he's made!
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Post #7 by MandarinaRacing » Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:34 pm

Holy Moly!

500 ft/lbs of torque!

and in a 250 ci engine no less!!!!!

You guys make us proud!!!!

Cheers,

Alex
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Post #8 by 69Falcon » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:16 pm

So the torque curve is now much flatter! Much more usable area under the curve. This would explain our increase in 1/8 mile speeds.


Sweet music to my ears, that's exactly the type of improvement I'm looking for!!!

And Will, those are just amazing results! Thanks for the updates!
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Post #9 by AzCoupe » Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:41 pm

All we need to do now, is match the camshaft to the induction package. Then see what it does. :D

Next step (after the cam) 12 point injection and/or juice :shock:

For those who don't know, the first batch of a dozen heads arrive this week, and will be ship out during the coming week to a few of our members for more testing.
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Post #10 by woodbutcher » Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:08 pm

:D Outstanding.
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Post #11 by MustangSix » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:28 am

One word - Megasquirt!
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Post #12 by shmoozo » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:48 am

I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in seeing what what sort of torque curves one can achieve with a naturally aspirated engine built with the new head, a "street performance" cam, a bit of additional compression ratio, headers and something like a 4 barrel intake. Frankly, that seems like the setup a lot of folks would actually build for their <ahem> "daily drivers" and I'm guessing we'll see some impressive numbers there, too.

:)

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Post #13 by XFlow_Fairlane » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:06 pm

I def would like to see some EFI on it. Carbs can "work" for turbos but are far from ideal.
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Post #14 by 65shad » Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:43 pm

ditto on schmoozo's comments

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Post #15 by shmoozo » Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:43 pm

turbo_fairlane_200 wrote:I def would like to see some EFI on it. Carbs can "work" for turbos but are far from ideal.


Turbos are kinda cool, but like some other folks here I'm really more interested in naturally aspirated, daily driver setups myself.

:)

Taking my previously tossed out configuration -- a naturally aspirated engine built with the new head, a "street performance" cam, a bit of additional compression ratio, headers and something like a 4 barrel intake -- and swapping out the carb for a practical, low-cost, EFI setup of some kind that folks could easily duplicate using parts that are widely available would also create an engine I think a lot of folks would want.

If, for example, somebody were to develop a sort of "cookbook recipe" for such an engine that other people could follow and get consistently good results, I think that would attract its share of interest. The "recipe" would need to list all needed parts including the cam, pistons, manifolds, injectors, wiring harnesses, throttle body, etc. for it to be really useful, and the less end-user fabrication required, the better.

:)

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Post #16 by Aerowrench » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:40 pm

That'll embarrass alot of 5.0 punks! 500 ft/lbs at the rear wheel...Yeah baby!

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Post #17 by matt1967 » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:26 pm

that should make a lot more with a diffrent cam. what cam do you have anyway? those numbers are pretty good, but seem low, that would put you right about 400 HP at the crank, seems a setup like yours could crank a lot more than my 200 should ( calculated Hp with Dyno 2000, 397 @ 6,000, torque is pretty much flat, peaks about 320 Ft/lbs midrange. I cut the FSPP head flow chart flow values in half, then lowred it a bit more to get what I thought was close to log head specs ). I'd bet it's the cam that's off. just playing around with diffrent cam profiles on Dyno 2000, I noticed that HP/ Torque can vary +- 30% or better just with diffrent profile cams, with turbo's, wrong cam can make a very flat hp/ torque curve, but very low also.

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Dyno numbers

Post #18 by Broncitis » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:03 am

Will and kelly that is incredible, the torque is beyond.... . First of all thanks for your sharing of information and time spent and also hope Kelly is doing quite fine. I would just hate to be a small block gettin my - kicked by such an outstanding job. the best forward I love the road less travelled. Mikw
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Post #19 by Gunner_Boone » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:21 am

Hi all,

Just wanting to drop my first post on this forum.

I'm a Sydney aussie with an apollo blue XB GS coupe, that I got, one owner (deceased estate) came from factory as a 6.

I have a whole 2v motor here from carby to headers, waiting for my time to free itself a bit (the old story, work and house renovation).

My dream was to fit an Eaton M90, EFI. I have the Eaton as well.

Looks like my plans might change, with the development that's going on here. This is amazing stuff.

I read how ClassicInlines came to be, with the cracked timing gear. Well done, letting your dreams carry you to this level. I have a lot to learn (no slouch, rebuilt a few motors, done an auto to manual conversion for an old 4x4, etc etc... but I can tell I have a lot to learn, after reading some posts about cam durations and stuff. Glad to have found you.

I note that there is already plans for a Magnuson (Eaton partner) induction setup and EFI. Maybe by the time I am ready, this will all be ready too. I also noted that there will be at least one supplier in Aus. Thank God for that one.

Well, just wanted to introduce myself, and let Mike know, there's another one watching his work, even if I am not in a position right now to jump in. Well done mate. I hope it only grows and grows from here.

Dan

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Post #20 by Bort62 » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:11 pm

Will,

I would like to know at what RPM you are actually seeing as the stall speed of your torque converter.

I think you may have some torque multiplications effects going on - Ill assume it is a non-locking converter?

500 ft lbs at ~2500 is slightly rediculous. Back when I was in the camaro world we used to see this alot with unrealistically high torque below the converters stall speed due to its viscious coupling torque multiplication. you had to disregard those numbers and look at the charts second torque peak for a realistic evaluation.

I would expect to see a huge torque spike leadig up to your stall speed, and then see it falling off sharply as the converter actually started to engage.

Could you post the graph?

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Post #21 by XFlow_Fairlane » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:54 pm

I can believe those numbers. when you are forcing 17psi in a motor with a mild cam you get some big TQ numbers. (I think with around 20psi on a 250 flowing well at iron head specs gives around 600 ft# on a simulator in ideal conditions) since turbo cars have mild cams they will produce alot of torque down low esp when you really huff on them.
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Post #22 by Bort62 » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:04 pm

I understand, but I would like to see the graph to see what is really going on.

I'm not making accusations or anything - I am just making an observation based on previous dyno experience.

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Post #23 by rickwrench » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:12 pm

Does10s wrote:Our Air/fuel ratio was fairly stable at 11:1 running nothing but E85. So I'm going to reduce the jets a little to lean it just a bit. This should help pick up a few more HP.


Hi Will,
How was the Dyno's wideband interpreting A/F ratios?
Some of my friends were discussing E85's stoich numbers and the conversions involved. E85's stoich is supposed to be 9.85/1, and rich/best torque at 8.05/1.
Was the sensor reading exhaust gasses and converting to gasoline figures?
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Post #24 by Bort62 » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:38 pm

Thats a great point, rick - Altho if He was really running that lean I would have expected there to be some pretty serious problems.

I do doubt the wideband output would be compensated for the E85 however.

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Post #25 by Does10s » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:51 pm

Yes the Dyno's Innovate O2 was set for gasoline. I should've had him swap it to indicate Lambda.

If I look at my Log files from our own Innovate LM-1, and switch it to the E85 scales, then our A/F is about 6.8:1. A little rich!

I'm prefering to use the Lambda number for this.
The Lambda number is 1.0 for the gasoline Stoich. .82 is supposed to be Stoich for E85.
I'm shooting for .75 Lambda under boost.

Will
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Post #26 by XFlow_Fairlane » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:17 pm

so are you guys going to look for a cam grind to push the powerband up a little higher?
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Post #27 by AzCoupe » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:29 am

turbo_fairlane_200 wrote:so are you guys going to look for a cam grind to push the powerband up a little higher?


George, at Clay Smith, is going to do a custom ground solid lifter cam in the next week or two.
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Post #28 by Does10s » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:06 am

Bort62 wrote:Will,

I would like to know at what RPM you are actually seeing as the stall speed of your torque converter.

I think you may have some torque multiplications effects going on - Ill assume it is a non-locking converter?

500 ft lbs at ~2500 is slightly rediculous. Back when I was in the camaro world we used to see this alot with unrealistically high torque below the converters stall speed due to its viscious coupling torque multiplication. you had to disregard those numbers and look at the charts second torque peak for a realistic evaluation.

I would expect to see a huge torque spike leadig up to your stall speed, and then see it falling off sharply as the converter actually started to engage.

Could you post the graph?


Ian,
I agree with you on the stall speed issue and chassis dynos. And to your point, the chart does fall off after the converter stall speed.
The 502 ft/lbs. is definately debatable, but the power and torque differences between the Log head and the Aluminum head is not. And that was more my point. Also as you probably know, it's not the peak numbers that move the car, it's the area under the curve.

Our converter stalls almost exactly at 3000 rpms. It's a Hughes 3500.
We still made 405 ft/lbs. at 4000rpm where we were definately "on the converter".
Later,
Will
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Post #29 by Bort62 » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:53 am

Okay, that makes a lot more sense to me. I only bring it up because people seem to fixate on numbers like that. I've seen basically stock L98 camaros with a vigilante converter crank out over 700 ft lbs below the stall speed on the dyno. I've then seen the owner go out and brag about 220 Hp and 700 ft-lbs of torque - just trying to keep it real here. Regardless, a true 405 ft lbs @ 4000 RPM is pretty impressive for one of these little motors.

And, as you say - what really matters is the integral of horsepower between your lower shift point and your upper power peak.

That's really the best way to figure out improvement. People like to make cute little comments about how torque wins races, but it really doesnt. At the end of the day horsepower is what really matters because horsepower is a measure of the potential work that the engine can do (torque is a measure of the force it creates). Gearing a car appropriately to make use of the torque it does make is what makes it fast, and the way you measure how effective that is in horsepower.

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Post #30 by Bort62 » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:03 am

I also want to say that I find it interesting that your power peak is so low - given the known flow numbers for that head.

It leads me to belive that there is a LOT left in that head with some more cam. What is the duration @ .50 of the cam you are running now ?

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Post #31 by Anlushac11 » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:54 am

Im not suprised by the power numbers.

There is a car that shows up every once in awhile in a certain magazine dedicated to late model Mustangs.

The car is called Shiny Avenger and runs a highly modified 2.3L turbo.

The best numebrs I have seen were IIRC right at 423hp and 412 ft lbs of torque. That was with a 5 speed and IIRC 26lbs of boost.

The 250 Will and Kelly are running has 110 moer cubes, 2 more cylinders and a consideably longer stroke. Only natural it should produce similar power levels per cubic inch as the 2.3L when the 250 has the FSPP head.

If the high end 2.3L's are any indicator then there is a considerable amount of power still to emerge.
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Post #32 by Does10s » Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:18 pm

Bort62 wrote:It leads me to belive that there is a LOT left in that head with some more cam. What is the duration @ .50 of the cam you are running now ?


Our current cam is the ClassicInlines 274S grind. @.050" lift, the duration is 224*. We have the 110* LSA version.

I totally agree that more cam is in order! According to AZCoupe's post above, there's one already on order! Bitchin!

Later,
Will
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Post #33 by Bort62 » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:08 pm

Ha, I love it that Bitchin' makes it through the nanny.

224 @ .50 is a decently large cam, but not as big as I would expect to see in a 11 second card.

Is it single pattern ?

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Post #34 by Does10s » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:37 pm

Bort62 wrote:Is it single pattern ?


Yup!
Here's the basic specs from Mike website.

PN: adv.dur. - dur. @ .050 - I/E Lift - LSA - RPM range
274S: 274/274 - 224/224 - .450/.450 - 110* - 1800-5400

Later,
Will
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Post #35 by Bort62 » Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:58 pm

Hmm, thats a fairly "old fashioned" grind... I wonder what the ramp angles etc look like.

I expect big things out of a new cam - any idea on what the specs for it are ?

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Post #36 by I66coupe » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:47 pm

Ok, any updates on that new cam? How's the engine doing?
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Post #37 by Does10s » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:59 am

No new updates on the cam. Haven't felt the need to try and go any faster because we're already to fast for the NHRA safety regulations!

But, we are currently installing a roll bar in Kelly's car so she'll be legal down to 9.99.

The roll bar might be done this weekend.

Later,
Will
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Post #38 by JackFish » Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:50 am

Does10s wrote:Haven't felt the need to try and go any faster because we're already to fast for the NHRA safety regulations
Later,
Will

Fast enough already? Well, if you're not gonna really use that head, you could ship it here! :P :twisted:
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Post #39 by 82F100 » Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:44 pm

Will, have you put the new balancer on yet?gonna need that too LOL!OH also a tranny shield.
300's make good truck motors....not race motors

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Post #40 by Does10s » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:51 am

Ya, Ya, Ya......I know about the shields and balancer. :D

I have the very custom aluminum, serpentine belt balancer already, just need to install it. Along with a new matching alternator.
The tranny shield is another story. I have one from my old C4 but I don't think that it'll fit in the tranny tunnel. I know for a fact that the flexplate shield won't fit without cutting the firewall. CSI makes one that's composite and much closer to the tranny....but it's $300! :shock:

I need to read the rule book again tonight.

So from where we are now, it looks like to get the car to legally run 10's, will cost us just over $1000! :shock: And it'll add around 90lbs. to the car!
Anybody want to donate to the cause?
Later,
Will
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Post #41 by kirkallen143 » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:19 am

You see Will, that is why I stick to sand drags...none of the NHRA rules apply to us. :mrgreen: Put some paddle tires on Kelly's falcon and let's get after it. heck in our league you can even drink beer while racing, I've done it once and actually won the race. Have you ever seen a guy shift a 3-in-the-tree while racing with a beer in his hand? :shock: (damn rednecks!)

Just kidding with ya this morning, good luck with the 9's. Right now, I finally got all my stuff together to install meth/H20 injection in the bronco and still running pump gas. All I can say is GOOD LORD THIS BOOST IS ADDICTING...you'd thought we were all on drugs or something.

Have a good one,

Kirk

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Post #42 by Does10s » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:14 am

Ya the NHRA can be a PITA! I know that it's all in the name of safety, but it still a pain!

Rich,
You'll be happy to know that the SFI aluminum harmonic balancer is installed. Even with a serpentine belt!
The tranny blanket is in too! I don't know why the blanket is legal? It's a fire hazard! It's right next to the exhaust, if there was a fuel leak it would soak up the fuel for later ignition, and it'll hold in the tranny heat. WTF? I have a much better way of doing this. Just weld in some sheet steel under the tranny tunnel with bolt holes hanging down on each side so that a "under tranny strap" could be bolt on.
And in a early Falcon the tranny tunnel is so small the blanket is smashed between the tunnel and the tranny! I'm sure I've already poked holes in it!
After Kelly's car burns to the ground, who do I send the replacement bill to? NHRA, SFI, PITA??

Next up for this weekend....roll bar.
Later,
Will
Image
'86 Mustang, Turbocharged, Best ET: 10.70@132.
'69 Mustang Sportsroof, 351w, auto
'63 Falcon, Turbocharged 250, C4, 9", Best ET: 10.64@127mph 11/21/14

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FLSHBCK
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Post #43 by FLSHBCK » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:45 am

got pics of the serpentine setup?
'65 Mustang Hardtop 200, C4: Rust repair in progress
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'12 Malibu LT3 - Wow; there are NO aftermarket parts for this thing
'04 Jeep Wrangler X - 4.0L I-6; stock

Does10s
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Post #44 by Does10s » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:04 am

FLSHBCK wrote:got pics of the serpentine setup?


No, but I can take some!
There's not much to see. We're only running the alternator. So the belt is only 33" long.
I'll take a pic or two tonight.

Later,
Will
Image
'86 Mustang, Turbocharged, Best ET: 10.70@132.
'69 Mustang Sportsroof, 351w, auto
'63 Falcon, Turbocharged 250, C4, 9", Best ET: 10.64@127mph 11/21/14

pssnmn1

Post #45 by pssnmn1 » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:35 pm

that is purely awsome fellas.

somebody pm me some numbers i'd like to run a comparison on the
desktop dyno to see how close the numbers are if thats ok with you guys of course.

and by the way did i mention that you guys rock! :D


thanks

Hooptie

Post #46 by Hooptie » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:05 pm

I'd be curious to see what power it makes running a true E85 AFR. Something on the order of 9:1 instead of 11:1

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Asa
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Post #47 by Asa » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:22 pm

hey Will
i showed the numbers to a few friends, and they were really interested in what all you've done to the engine
head, intercooled turbo, cam and..... ?
i looked around, and didn't see any threads listing what you've done

enlighten us?


also, any chance of those dyno numbers?
edit: sorry, not dyno numbers, graphs, dyno-graphs
Right and Wrong are just words, what matters is what you do

Susie - a work in progress
Clyde - ya mule!

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AzCoupe
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Post #48 by AzCoupe » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:02 pm

250ci Short Block - Line Bored
Nodular Cast Iron Crank
Forged Dished Pistons - 8.7:1 CR (Classic Inlines)
Seal Power Plasma Rings (Classic Inlines)
Aluminum Cylinder Head (Classic Inlines)
Alloy 4V Intake Manifold (Classic Inlines)
Clevite 77 Rod, Main, Cam Bearings (Classic Inlines)
ARP Rod, Main, and Head (1/2") studs (Classic Inlines)
Copper Head Gasket - O-ring block
Clay Smith H292-112* Camshaft & Lifters (Classic Inlines)
SI Port Flow Valves 1.84/1.50 (Classic Inlines)
Yella Terra Full Roller Rocker Assembly (Classic Inlines)
Valve Springs with Damper
Custom Balancer/Damper
Holley 600cfm 4V carburetor
Turbonetics T4 turbo
Yonaka Intercooler
Home-make turbo header
Duraspark II Distributor with MSD-6A
Alloy Valve Cover (Classic Inlines)
Electric Water & Fuel Pump
C4 Auto with transgo shift kit & Hurst Shifter
Traction-Loc 9" Differential w/ 3.73 gears

I'm sure I'm missed a couple of things, but can't think of what they are?
Looking for Performance Parts, see Classic Inlines
Mike

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Click here for larger image & info

Does10s
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Post #49 by Does10s » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:04 am

Nice memory Mike!
But you did miss a few things and I'll add some commentary.

The C4 tranny is a built up one by Performance Automatic. The one that developed a severe leak at PINKS ALL OUT was reverse, manual valve body without transbrake. There's no "shift kit" that Mike alluded to.
Right now however my old Perf. Automatic C4 is installed and it does have a transbrake. So while it's in there we'll see how the transbrake works on her car.

The Turbo is a Precision TO-4E. 64mm.
The rear is a 9" but with a spool and 3.50 gears.
Stock crank and rods and block.
We're currently running the Holley 600 DP but during the dyno pulls we were using a Holley 450 4bbl.

The cam that Mike mentioned above was not in the car during the dyno pulls. It was his much milder 274s cam.
And for what it's worth, I don't really care for the 292 cam in Kelly's car. I like the lift, but the duration is just to much for turbos. I've had to open up the valve lash to get the car to leave the line. We're at .020" hot, and it needs a few more thousandents to be right. The motor almost sounds like a Cummins at idle.
So at some point this year, I'm going to pull it and swap to Mike's 278 cam. Or just build another motor! :wink:
Later,
Will
Image
'86 Mustang, Turbocharged, Best ET: 10.70@132.
'69 Mustang Sportsroof, 351w, auto
'63 Falcon, Turbocharged 250, C4, 9", Best ET: 10.64@127mph 11/21/14

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Asa
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Post #50 by Asa » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:31 pm

thanks guys, i passed on the info, as well as what Classic Inlines is, so Mike, you might be gettin a bit more business from the owner of a 250 powered Maverick
;)
Right and Wrong are just words, what matters is what you do



Susie - a work in progress

Clyde - ya mule!

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