Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

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echo1955
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #101 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:59 pm

MPGmustang wrote:A stock C4 is not to be underestimated, V8's use the same C4 that the i6's carry and house 200hp and never give any problems. the only difference is the size of bell housing, and torque converter. your stock converter will cover any power increase mods that you add with not problems. the only downside is the stall rpm. I don't understand the complete mechanics of what the stall rpm does but I suspect it's a true 1:1 spin ratio, at a higher rpm.

your current C4 and converter will handle aything you throw at it. it won't hurt it. the only things you need to worry about is the proper vacuum signal and the converter we can help you find the right one. that is why it's suggested to stick with a 112 lobe center to keep as much vacuum as possible for ur stock C4.

I think your C4 will be perfectly capable of handling ANY naturally inspired mods you throw at it. and IMO I believe the stock converter to be fine withur choice of (264/274 112* .450)* cam.
*might be a little lumpy but should idle decently 650-800 rpm


Thank you MPG. The reason I was considering the 110 LC was because of the idle. I wanted a slight lope.

Why you ask??
Strictly appearance:
Example 1:
I’m sitting at the stoplight; my engine has a smooth normal idle. A v8 Corvette stops along side and notices a neat FB Mustang. He thinks hummm cool and drives on..

Example 2:
I’m sitting at the stoplight; my engine has a lope at idle. A v8 Corvette stops along side and notices a cool FB Mustang with the sound of muscle. He thinks hummmm, wonder what’s under the hood. Let me find out when the light turns green. The light turns green, he burns rubber and I just calmly drive off.

I pass him 3 blocks down the road parked getting a speeding ticket…. :mrgreen:

All kidding aside, that was the only reason. I have no vacuum assist accessories other than timing. Not knowing what causes idle lope I just assumed it would be the LC’s.

Now I believe the cam picture is a lot clearer to me.
As I understand now the 264/264-112* will have smooth idle and max vacuum.
The 264/274 112* .450 will have a slight lope and still have good vacuum.
That is all I wanted… every thing else is eye candy..

Now that I have unrestricted access I’m thinking for $360
it might be a good idea to replace the converter with one that has a stall at 3300 rpm.Image

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #102 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:11 pm

Speaking of appearance’s: when I first restored the car I put dual tail pipes on.
Image
At the muffler place the guy said hey this ant no v8 why the dual.

I said I don’t know. Just thought it look good. So he started working the exhaust. Got to the rear and said hey these exhaust don’t belong here. They are in the wrong place. They belong over here.

I said yea I know. I made a mistake when I cut the holes and now I need to fill it. I didn’t want to tell him I did not want to loose those neat little chrome guards below the bumper…

All because I thought it look good… :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #103 by MPGmustang » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:33 pm

http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/select ... erter.html

I found this to be the best informative article on torque converters for cars.

I like this right here
[quote][/quote]

so stock would probably be around 1500-1800 rpm, look for one @ 2000-2300 and your cam selection 264/274/ 110* .450 should line up nicely, or stick with your stock casue it should be very close.

my old 'stock' engine had peak torque @ 1200 rpm (140 tq) i did buy the car with a C4 and changed to a T-5. my old stocl converter fit that specification perfectly. I would ask the company on the phone and give them your final cam desion.

my rule of thumb that I used was takin the RPM range of the cam selected and adding 700-1000 rpm to the lowest number, that is where your peak should be around. then match the stall converter to that rpm. (this is not acurate but close to)
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #104 by echo1955 » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:48 am

Thank you MPG..
I'm out of the country at the moment.. (in Cal-e -forn-ya)
I think the 264/264 110 is hanging in as my first choice.
Haven't talked to the machine shop yet. Should know more next week some time..
I will keep everyone up to date with pictures as well..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #105 by echo1955 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:19 pm

From what I have read at several posts, I will have trouble with my starter interfering with the exhaust headers.

I found this HP starter:
http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-1321-new- ... d0001.aspx

It has a 2-bolt pattern. Mine has 3 bolts:
The pinion gear has 10 teeth. Mine has 9 teeth.

Q: Is there any way I could use this starter?

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #106 by woodbutcher » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:58 pm

:) I think that the nosecone and the bendix gear can be swapped to match yours.
Then it would be usable.However,I don`t know if the proper items are avialable for your engine for the mini starter.
Check with Mike(AZ Coupe)at Classic Inlines to be sure.He might even have the correct starter that you need.
Leo
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #107 by bubba22349 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:07 pm

I think you need to look for one that would fit an FE Ford their are some made like this one :hmmm:

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/produc ... arter.html
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #108 by rbohm » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:05 pm

echo1955 wrote:
rbohm
this means that the crankshaft, rods, and pistons were properly balanced. what happens is the pistons are weighed, and then weight is taken off the heaviest pistons until they match the weight of the lightest piston, with in a gram or two.

then the connecting rods are also weighed, first a total weight, then each end is weighed, and again the heaviest rods are machined until they match the lightest rod, again within a gram or two. and this means both in total weight and each end.

then the rod, piston, ring pack, and rod bearings for one cylinder are weighed, and a weight equal to that amount is attached to the crankshaft at each rod journal, and the crank is spun to find where the balance is off. then weight is either added or subtracted as needed from the counterweights. rather like balancing a tire on a dynamic balancer.


The thought never occurred to me to have this work done.
I understand how important anything that spins in a 360* circle be balanced.
I will have mine balanced as well. Thank you rbohm..

The DUI is still an option for me..

rbohm
1: the .450 is the net valve lift with the stock rocker arms
2: the 256 is the advertised duration, usually measured at 0-.006" lift depending on the manufacturer.
3: the 112 degrees is the lobe separation angle. the wider the angle the more dynamic compression you have, the better your low end torque. be careful when using this to help tune an engine combination, because if your static compression ratio is too high, you can very easily run into low speed detonation issues due to too high a dynamic compression ratio.
4: for this lobe separation angle i would keep my static compression ratio around 9.5:1 for best results.


I have a good handle on number 1-2 and 3.

#4 is my next hurdle.
If I can use a 110* lobe separation how can I determine static compression.


static compression is a calculation using this formula;

cylinder volume(aka cv)= cylinder bore x cylinder bore x stroke x .7854(a simplified version of pi x r squared/4)

the formula goes like this;

cv + combustion chamber volume + head gasket volume + piston dome or dish volume(+ if the pistons are dished - if the pistons are domed). this gives you the total volume with the piston at bottom dead center. subtract out the cylinder volume for the total volume at top dead center, then take the total volume and divide it by the volume at top dead center, and that will give you the static compression ratio.

now to confuse you even further, you calculate the head gasket volume just like the cylinder volume.

take my 289 that i am building for instance;

cylinder volume = 4 x 4 x 2.87 x .7854

that number is 36.06ci

to convert that to cc you multiply by 16.38, which comes to 590.9cc roughly.

so my total volume is

590.0cc + chamber volume of 58cc + 0 piston volume + head gasket volume 11.6cc + deck height volume 4.1cc = 664.6cc

divide that number by 73.7

and i get 664.6/73.7= 9.0:1 compression ratio.

i hope that helps, or not :lol: :lol:

as for balancing the rotating assembly, i agree that it is a prudent thing to do, as it eliminates any tolerance stack that can occur with using the factory balance.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #109 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:55 pm

woodbutcher wrote::) I think that the nosecone and the bendix gear can be swapped to match yours.
Then it would be usable.However,I don`t know if the proper items are avialable for your engine for the mini starter.
Check with Mike(AZ Coupe)at Classic Inlines to be sure.He might even have the correct starter that you need.
Leo


Thank you woodbutcher.. My starter shaft measures 0.47" so the chances of the parts I need being available are probably slim to none.. but it sure don’t hurt to ask around..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #110 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:03 pm

bubba22349 wrote:I think you need to look for one that would fit an FE Ford their are some made like this one :hmmm:

http://www.robbmcperformance.com/produc ... arter.html



hahahahahah yea you would find that one.. I saw it had a 3 bolt pattern but the darn price looked like it wouldn't fit... :mrgreen:
Well my momma always said
""Life is like a bowl of mixed fruit. Some you like and others you don't like.""

On this one I may not care for the price but it sure beats a rolling start down hill... :mrgreen:
Thanks :thumbup:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #111 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:54 pm

by rbohm on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:05 am

static compression is a calculation using this formula;

cylinder volume(aka cv)= cylinder bore x cylinder bore x stroke x .7854(a simplified version of pi x r squared/4)

the formula goes like this;

cv + combustion chamber volume + head gasket volume + piston dome or dish volume(+ if the pistons are dished - if the pistons are domed). this gives you the total volume with the piston at bottom dead center. subtract out the cylinder volume for the total volume at top dead center, then take the total volume and divide it by the volume at top dead center, and that will give you the static compression ratio.

now to confuse you even further, you calculate the head gasket volume just like the cylinder volume.

take my 289 that i am building for instance;

cylinder volume = 4 x 4 x 2.87 x .7854

that number is 36.06ci

to convert that to cc you multiply by 16.38, which comes to 590.9cc roughly.

so my total volume is

590.0cc + chamber volume of 58cc + 0 piston volume + head gasket volume 11.6cc + deck height volume 4.1cc = 664.6cc

divide that number by 73.7

and i get 664.6/73.7= 9.0:1 compression ratio.

i hope that helps, or not :lol: :lol:

as for balancing the rotating assembly, i agree that it is a prudent thing to do, as it eliminates any tolerance stack that can occur with using the factory balance.


Well I would have to say Or Not: :mrgreen:
I’m not doubting the formula.. I’m doubting my ability to come to the correct CR.. using any formula with out professional help..

I was reading the tech sheet and mike had the deck height milled to 0.
I believe my current deck height is .019”

I do not want to exceed 9.5:1 CR.
When I talk to my machinist I need to be able to tell him what I want..
And frankly I don’t know what I need there..
The machine shop said they would need about 2 weeks before they could start. They have had it 2 weeks now.

My time is running close to the need to know…

So let me try this.
If I do not zero the deck:
Pistons are .030 over.
I use dished pistons:
The stroke is 3.126

Will this give me a CR no greater than 9.5:1?
If not what should I do to the block that will get me there..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #112 by bubba22349 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:43 am

Will this give me a CR no greater than 9.5:1?
If not what should I do to the block that will get me there..


Not likely :hmmm: Stock your 200 was 8.7 to 1 the heads were supposed to be a chamber volume of about 52 CC so that will be about the same. With the composite head gasket we have now at around .050 or twice what the .025 stock head gasket was. If you zero deck it than that takes care of .019 of that extra so still an increases .006 in volume the .030 bore will balance that some so most likely close to a wash. With a dish piston you will be close to the stock 8.7 or less (you would need to measure the head CC to know for sure). Is only a guess without CC's but think you would probably need to have a flat top piston to get too your 9.5 to 1. :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #113 by echo1955 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:51 am

bubba22349 wrote:
Will this give me a CR no greater than 9.5:1?
If not what should I do to the block that will get me there..


Not likely :hmmm: Stock your 200 was 8.7 to 1 the heads were supposed to be a chamber volume of about 52 CC so that will be about the same. With the composite head gasket we have now at around .050 or twice what the .025 stock head gasket was. If you zero deck it than that takes care of .019 of that extra so still an increases .006 in volume the .030 bore will balance that some so most likely close to a wash. With a dish piston you will be close to the stock 8.7 or less (you would need to measure the head CC to know for sure). Is only a guess without CC's but think you would probably need to have a flat top piston to get too your 9.5 to 1. :thumbup:


O man thanks bubba. :thumbup:
So have the block zero out and use flat pistons..
Would that get me to 9+:1 ?

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #114 by bubba22349 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:15 am

That would be my guessament. Think you said before you are using the CI alum. head right? Maybe they will measure the chambers for you and then math is not hard if you know the volumes. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #115 by echo1955 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 3:21 am

Thank you bubba. :thumbup: I will be using CI AL heads..
I feel a lot more comfortable.. So if I give the volume specs to Mike he can tell me what I need for his heads to get me up to 9+:1…

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #116 by bubba22349 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:51 pm

:nod: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #117 by echo1955 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:17 pm

What is the bolt torque for C4 bell-housing to transmission?

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #118 by echo1955 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:46 pm

I will be using an electric fuel pump emergency cut off switch. I found this one
HERE

Any thoughts out there on using this one or another one??.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #119 by echo1955 » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:37 pm

While scrounging around the web I found THIS SITE:

Using their Dynamic Compression Ratio Calculator and input my Number:
Cylinders: 6
Bore: 3.71 (.030 over)
Stroke: 3.126
Rod Length: 4.715
SCR: 9.4:1

Using a cam 264/264 110* LC with IVC 62*
It gives me the fallowing:

Static compression ratio of 9.4:1.
Effective stroke is 2.50 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.52:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 146.67 PSI.
Your dynamic boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of PSI is 7.52 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 71

Looking at CI’s tech sheet:
Image
There is no recommendation for a 62* Intake valve close.

What am I missing??

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #120 by bubba22349 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:28 pm

Is'nt the CI Alum. head chamber in the 48 to 52 CC range?
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #121 by echo1955 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:48 pm

Hey bubba
According to CI specks, it is offered with a 50cc as stock. The full information is HERE

If I use This Calculator
And Input:
Cylinders: 6
Bore: 3.72
Stroke: 3.126
Chambers: 50cc
Valve Relief/Dome cc: 6.6 ?? ( dont have a clue)
Gasket: .05
Deck Height: 0.0
It tells me Your displacement is 203.85 CID The Compression Ratio is: 9.13

I do not know how to calculate Valve Relief/Dome cc: so I left it at 6.6 ??
If I use head chamber of 48cc, It calls for displacement of 203.85 CID
and Compression Ratio is: 9.38

I understand how that works and I know the numbers may be off because I did not use the correct valve relief cc. I will figure that out latter with help from the members here.

I guess what I’m asking is this. If I use the volume I end up with from the machine shop, can I use any cam that will show the correct SCR relative to the correct DCR and the grade of fuel?
I’m thinking I will stick with regular fuel.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #122 by rbohm » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:17 pm

8) if you are replacing the pistons, they information that comes with them should give you the dome or valve relief volume.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #123 by echo1955 » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:06 am

Thank you rbohm
You cleared up a lot of cobwebs :thumbup:
Say you wouldn't happen to know what a stock dish piston .030 over valve relief happens to be wood ya? :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #124 by rbohm » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:36 am

8) nope, i have no clue. if you have the pistons and a burette, you can measure the total volume though. the burette needs to be marked in cc's, and it should hold at least 150cc's. fill the burette with water, and carefully drain the water into the piston dish until it is full, then cut the water off and read the level on the burette. you can do the same thing with the valve reliefs as well. or contact the manufacturer.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #125 by echo1955 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:38 am

Thank you rbohm.. that’s absolute brilliance.. :thumbup: well maybe not to you but certainly to me..
why can’t I come up with such solutions..duhhhh. :bang:
The whole question may be mute. I was just trying to use my original pistons, but that may not be possible..

I talked to the machine shop yesterday and they said they needed about 3 more days.
So by this Thursday or Friday I should know what I would need.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #126 by woodbutcher » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:35 am

:) Hi echo1955.Reusing old pistons is NORMALLY not a good idea,as there could be hidden damage such as internal stress damage.
That could cost you a complete rebuild,and possible loss of block.Ask me how I know :oops: :oops: :oops: .
Leo
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #127 by JackFish » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:00 am

rbohm wrote:8) nope, i have no clue. if you have the pistons and a burette, you can measure the total volume though. the burette needs to be marked in cc's, and it should hold at least 150cc's. fill the burette with water, and carefully drain the water into the piston dish until it is full, then cut the water off and read the level on the burette. you can do the same thing with the valve reliefs as well. or contact the manufacturer.

You could take some putty and fill the dish and level it off. Pop it out and put it in a measuring cup with water. It will displace its own volume.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #128 by rocklord » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:02 am

echo1955 wrote:Hey bubba
According to CI specks, it is offered with a 50cc as stock. The full information is HERE

If I use This Calculator
And Input:
Cylinders: 6
Bore: 3.72
Stroke: 3.126
Chambers: 50cc
Valve Relief/Dome cc: 6.6 ?? ( dont have a clue)
Gasket: .05
Deck Height: 0.0
It tells me Your displacement is 203.85 CID The Compression Ratio is: 9.13

I do not know how to calculate Valve Relief/Dome cc: so I left it at 6.6 ??
If I use head chamber of 48cc, It calls for displacement of 203.85 CID
and Compression Ratio is: 9.38

I understand how that works and I know the numbers may be off because I did not use the correct valve relief cc. I will figure that out latter with help from the members here.

I guess what I’m asking is this. If I use the volume I end up with from the machine shop, can I use any cam that will show the correct SCR relative to the correct DCR and the grade of fuel?
I’m thinking I will stick with regular fuel.


Don't use the CR calculation formula there. Valve relief is places cut into the pistons for the valves to clear; not normally found in our pistons. Use the CR calculator here: http://falconperformance.sundog.net/compcalculator.asp or use 0.00 in the valve relief section.

If you use your numbers, with 0.00 valve relief, you come up with 10-1 CR. Your chamber volume would have to be 56cc to get a 9.5-1 CR

Hope this helps.
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #129 by echo1955 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:40 pm

Thank you very much rocklord.. actually when I realize how much you cleared things up for me, a thank you doesn’t seem adequate.

You have answered my next question as well. I have looked at a lot of pistons lately with recess in their heads. I was going to ask why These Pistons had none… Now I knows.. :thumbup:

I have a strange quark. I can see the obvious, stare at the obvious and still have reservations about the obvious. :?
Until someone with experience tells me
Yep sonny, it is obvious you is staring at the obvious… :mrgreen:

Now I can have an informed conversation with the mechanist and actually keep up with him..
Until now that was outside my ability....
Thanks again.. :thumbup:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #130 by echo1955 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:13 pm

Up date:
I spoke with the machinist this morning. My motor was +.030 over. It will be bored out +.040 over.
Vat block, Magnaflux
Machine the deck .010.
Dish pistons with a 7cc recess.
Balance moving parts
Polish crank 10/10 ok.
ARP bolts.
Dual Roller timing chain
With a 9.5:1 SCR

Haven’t decided the cam yet. Ether 264 w/110 LC or 264 w/112 LC.
I will be picking the motor up around 29 or 30 November.
Then the wait’s over and da fun part begins.. :beer:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #131 by rbohm » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:29 pm

echo1955 wrote:Haven’t decided the cam yet. Ether 264 w/110 LC or 264 w/112 LC.


8) to help you make the decision, if you are going to use a manual trans, then go with the 110 lobe separation, of an automatic then the 112 is the way to go.
64 falcon
66 mustang
05 grand marquis

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transient nodes of thought
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #132 by MPGmustang » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:21 pm

maybe a stock duration, higher lift, and less lobe centers
like
256/256 .450 (or .480) and 108* LC

benefits =
same power range that you are used to
more lift than stock = more torque AND power
less LC = faster reving engine (I can see a huge benefit if using a log head as it will carb out @ 4700rpm with a single bbl)

or got in between..

but keep reading, you only want to select a cam once. Look at the power RPM range. 112 is best for auto tranny's

if you stick with the 264 duration cam, increase your DCR by increasing your SCR, you want it more than stock., but remeber what gas you use.
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #133 by echo1955 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:28 pm

rbohm wrote:
echo1955 wrote:Haven’t decided the cam yet. Ether 264 w/110 LC or 264 w/112 LC.


8) to help you make the decision, if you are going to use a manual trans, then go with the 110 lobe separation, of an automatic then the 112 is the way to go.


Thank you rbohm. One of the most consistent opinions posted here was to use a 112 LC with the C4…

I have no reason to oppose using the 112 with all the information I have learned from the members here.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #134 by woodbutcher » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:43 pm

:) Hi echo1955.As an earlier post mentioned,the C4 IS a good tranny.With a good stock rebuild it will live well behind your 200.
There are companies that can build a C4 that will live behind up to IIRC,appx 800 ponies,if not more.
Leo
"People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election".

Otto von Bismarck

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #135 by echo1955 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:16 pm

Thank you MPG

MPGmustan
maybe a stock duration, higher lift, and less lobe centers
like
256/256 .450 (or .480) and 108* LC

benefits =
same power range that you are used to
more lift than stock = more torque AND power
less LC = faster reving engine
(I can see a huge benefit if using a log head as it will carb out @ 4700rpm with a single bbl)


I don’t want to go with my log head unless I have to. I say that because CI hasn’t come out with their tri carb manifold as yet and they have no ETA. If that doesn’t develop by the time I need it, then I will go with plan B.

Plan B: (just implemented :mrgreen: ) Use my log and Offenhauser Triple manifold.

My motor is being machined to give me a 9.5 SCR using a Felpro gasket of .038. Now I have to see if the log head can be machined to keep the 9.5..??

or got in between..

but keep reading, you only want to select a cam once
. Look at the power RPM range. 112 is best for auto tranny's

if you stick with the 264 duration cam, increase your DCR by increasing your SCR, you want it more than stock., but remeber what gas you use.


I definitely hear you 5x5 there.. :mrgreen:

If the log head can be machined to keep the 9.5:1
I believe with the carb setup and adding the dual exhaust headers I should be able to use the 264/264 108LC w/stock C4 and 2.8 rear-end.

Yes….No…. :?

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #136 by echo1955 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:19 pm

woodbutcher wrote::) Hi echo1955.As an earlier post mentioned,the C4 IS a good tranny.With a good stock rebuild it will live well behind your 200.
There are companies that can build a C4 that will live behind up to IIRC,appx 800 ponies,if not more.
Leo


Thank you woodbutcher :thumbup: .... Can you tie a name to company... :D

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #137 by woodbutcher » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:59 pm

:) Hi echo1955.B&M hydro,been around since IIRC 1953.They built the FIRST 4 speed automatic for race use.TCI is another.There are several more out there to look at.
Best of luck,and have fun.
Silent Service or Cans?
Leo
"People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election".

Otto von Bismarck

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #138 by echo1955 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:48 pm

woodbutcher wrote::) Hi echo1955.B&M hydro,been around since IIRC 1953.They built the FIRST 4 speed automatic for race use.TCI is another.There are several more out there to look at.
Best of luck,and have fun.
Silent Service or Cans?
Leo


Thank you woodbutcher... I will be into my trans when I finish this build...

negative....negativeFMF :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #139 by woodbutcher » Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:23 am

:D Hi echo1955.Thanks for your service.God bless you and yours
Leo
PS.Semper FI Mac.
"People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election".

Otto von Bismarck

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #140 by echo1955 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:00 am

Hey woodbutcher, you gave me a real good chuckle the way you phrased your comment.. :mrgreen:
I thought hummm only a Navy Vet would know about Cans… :thumbup:
Semper Fi Leo..
Roy

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #141 by woodbutcher » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:38 am

:) Hi echo1955.Had a cousin that served on them during WW2.
Leo
"People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election".

Otto von Bismarck

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #142 by echo1955 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:59 pm

Looks like it will be Monday 6 Dec before I get my block back.

I made an extender to use when I degree the cam in. I dissembled a lifter then using a push rod and some JB weld I glued it in the center of the lifter.

It looks good and should work better than using one loose… :?

This Is It

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #143 by echo1955 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:33 am

:( OK On to PLAN B :(
I just learned from Mike his tri carb manifold is far from what is considered by me a reasonable build to pass along to my daughter and son-in-law. I see nothing but headaches down the road for them should the car develop carb issues..

I seriously considered the Offenhauser Triple Intake Manifolds, but I just cant bring myself to cut the hood. I do not want to drop the engine and trans ether.

It’s not what I wanted but I believe it will be a good show and good eye appeal as well. I believe there are enough of these builds around but I haven’t seen any in the car shows I’ve been to in Cal-e-forn-ya….

SO: Plan B..
Use CI Aluminum 2V-4V Intake Manifold.
Every thing else stays the same.. :|

I picked up my cam today from Mike and I should get my block back this coming Monday…

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #144 by echo1955 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:03 am

I seem to recall reading some where if you use AL heads with Yella Terra Full Roller Rocker Set it has the same effect as advancing the cam 2º..

I also read if you mill the deck 0.012 it has the effect of retarding the cam 1º..

Q: If this is correct and you wanted to advance the cam 4º , would you only advance the cam now at 2º ?? Giving you a total advance of 3º..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #145 by echo1955 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 2:33 am

Thank you CobraSix. It never occurred to me to change my master cylinder to a dual. The machine shop has had my block for over 2 months now. The up side.. it gave me plenty of time to browse through some of the many post here and it just so happen I saw one of your post.

One had a link to your My How to's

You did a great job there and it helped me a Lot.. If all goes as plan I should pick my block up tomorrow. Before I drop it in I will be replacing my master cylinder with a dual cylinder…

BEFORE:
Image

I will post the AFTER after I install it… :mrgreen:
Thanks again CobraSix.. :thumbup:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #146 by echo1955 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:22 am

I brought my baby home today. She seemed to look as though she had lost everything… Image
She had a large frown that I could see clearly.. I comforted her by telling her I would give her a complete new set of gear..and she would look better than ever..
Image
I began to cheered her up a with a hot bath.
Image
Then I gave her a lavish and soothing splash of WD40 lotion… This brought some life back to her..
Image
I realized I had to quickly do more. So I brought out her new brass gear with a dab of JB Weld perfume..
Image
That’s when I noticed a huge smile..
Image
Then I gave her a lavish new black coat… and her smile seem to take on a brighter show of approval…
Image
She was very pleased with her back side as well.. with a cool Motorcraft tattoo..
Image
After all that she wanted to get her beauty rest,
SO
I turned out the lights……………….the party’s ………………over
for tonight anyway…... :mrgreen:
Image

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #147 by bubba22349 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:02 pm

Look out now :shock: you keep this up and it will back runing :nod: :beer: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #148 by MPGmustang » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:59 pm

hmmm, i'm jealous you're going with the alum head on that block... Keep up the pics :) :thumbup:
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #149 by echo1955 » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:10 pm

hahahaha no need… :mrgreen:
I wont be using CI’s aluminum heads.
He doesn’t know when he will be coming out with his Tri Carb manifold.

My whole reasoning for this build was to add Tri Carbs. So for now I will be using my log head…..
everything else stays the same except maybe a drop in SCR…

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #150 by echo1955 » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:46 am

Cam Install:
Image

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