Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

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echo1955
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #51 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:38 pm

On another issue:

I was checking the original Cam. Does this look like the setup is ok.
Image
I removed the cam to read the markings on the end but I could not make out what they were?

The intake lobe +.050 read 26. The max lift was 117. The - .050 was 161.
The exhaust +.050 was 162. The max lift was 255. The -.050 was 297.
Does this sound right.

Here I was looking at the endplay. I used the pry bar where you see it to move the crank. It did not take much force to move it. It was .005. Is this ok.
Image

If any procedure I used here is incorrect let me know. I need to get this part right..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #52 by bubba22349 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:59 pm

Looks ok :thumbup: Did you find true TDC?
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #53 by Gene Fiore » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:11 pm

Just to be on the safe side...when I just rebuilt my motor I changed the oil and filter right after the 20 minute breakin period. Then again after the first 500 miles. I used Brad Penn break in oil that I got from Mike at ClassicInlines...and now use Valvoline Racing Oil. :wink:
1971 Maverick, 250I6, crank knife-edged, Clay Smith 278 solid cam, .040 over 255 V8 pistons, 10.5 to 1, Custom 500 Holley 2V direct mount, 1.6 rockers, mild port/polish, Hooker header, DUI dizzy, C-4 w/2800 stall, 8" 3.55 det locker

Best ET 1/4 mile: 14.92 at 89.61 mph on 1/12/2013

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echo1955
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #54 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:19 pm

bubba22349 wrote:Looks ok :thumbup: Did you find true TDC?


Yes I did. I made a stop from a 2"x4" flat stock. Drilled and tapped a 1/4-20 bolt in the center for the stop.
That's the first time I ever did it that way. Worked great.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #55 by echo1955 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:24 pm

Gene Fiore wrote:Just to be on the safe side...when I just rebuilt my motor I changed the oil and filter right after the 20 minute breakin period. Then again after the first 500 miles. I used Brad Penn break in oil that I got from Mike at ClassicInlines...and now use Valvoline Racing Oil. :wink:


Thank you Gene.. I prefer to be on the safe side... :thumbup:
Couple dollars for oil is a lot cheaper than redoing the engine from oil issues.. :bang:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #56 by woodbutcher » Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:12 am

:) Hi echo1955.Last time that I rebuilt a motor was in 1988.A 302 .Used the 500 mile interval then.Used Castrol 20W50 and an Fl 1A Motorcraft filter.
Worked out ok.Put over 150K on the engine,and the tranny died(C6).Worked it hard though.
Hauled many tons of firewood and towed many a trailer full of wood to boot.
Leo
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #57 by echo1955 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:11 pm

woodbutcher wrote::) Hi echo1955.Last time that I rebuilt a motor was in 1988.A 302 .Used the 500 mile interval then.Used Castrol 20W50 and an Fl 1A Motorcraft filter.
Worked out ok.Put over 150K on the engine,and the tranny died(C6).Worked it hard though.
Hauled many tons of firewood and towed many a trailer full of wood to boot.
Leo


Hey woodbutcher, Took my block to the machine shop today..
Let the spending games began: :twisted:

In 96 I bought a 96 Toyota Tacoma 4x4. On my first oil change I used 10w30 Castrol synthetic.
When I reached 200K I changed to 5w50 Castrol synthetic.

It has 280k on it now. I change filter and oil every 10k. It has been in the shop twice.
First for a recall on head gasket. Second cuz the ac pressure line sprung a leak.
Now for the third time it has to see the shop again. My dang radiator sprung a leak at the top.

It has never used one drop of oil between changes….

I’m fixing to spend 6 grand on this build. I wanted to know what other 200 ci owners used.

As it stands now there is Valvoline Racing Oil, Castrol Synthetic and Royal Purple… .

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #58 by echo1955 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:31 pm

Freddy wrote:I am currently building a '65 200 block (with '72 200 crank and rods). Have already ordered a CI head, here is what I am doing to the rest of the engine:

Bored .030 Honed with 280 grit for moly rings
Flat top pistons (From Tempo HSC engine) calculated static CR to be 9.3:1
Balanced rot/recip assembly
ARP rod bolts - resized rods (necessary when replacing bolts)
Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
Yella Terra 1.65:1 Roller Rockers
CI Stainless Header
Holley 390cfm 4bbl carb
Still debating about ignition...

Hope this gives you some ideas... It is my intent that this combination will provide substantial power gains while remaining driveability and great gas mileage.


Freddy how ya coming on this?

What does this mean?
Balanced rot/recip assembly
Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
The rest I understand..

After reading all I could I have decided on the DUI ignition. Everything sounds good except the price.. :?

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #59 by echo1955 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:54 pm

Now I gots some time on my hands.. here are some stuff I did before I got on this 3 carb venture… :?

Image Image
ImageImage
:beer:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #60 by echo1955 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:28 pm

Another project I finished about 5 years ago. It took me 5 years to complete but I wasn’t in any hurry… I gave this car to my youngest daughter.
She lives outside of the country in Cal-e-forn-ya..
Image Image
When I finished the 47 flat head 6, I used 50w Royal Purple.
In Texas Royal Purple rules the roost..

When I finish my Mustang my granddaughter has a 64 Falcon w/170ci in it.
She hasn’t said anything yet but…. proly be me next adventure.. :mrgreen:

I included Royal Purple because of this article I found yesterday comparing RP to Mobil 1:
Check it out.
http://www.royalpurple.com/corvette-enthusiast.html

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #61 by JackFish » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:51 pm

echo1955 wrote:After reading all I could I have decided on the DUI ignition. Everything sounds good except the price.. :?

DS2. :thumbup: :nod:
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Yup, I bought another one.
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echo1955
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #62 by echo1955 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:36 am

Hey Freddy I found the cam.. now all I need do is understand it…

Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
FORD 6 CYL 321256 256 Supercam .450 256° 112° 392-HY

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #63 by echo1955 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:05 am

JackFish wrote:
echo1955 wrote:After reading all I could I have decided on the DUI ignition. Everything sounds good except the price.. :?

DS2. :thumbup: :nod:


Thank you JackFish.. :thumbup: I can save $100 and keep original look..
These new electronic ignition systems are just too new to me.. :?

I should be able to select the cam when the shop finishes the block in a couple weeks..
I think I will go with a slight lope and premium fuel.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #64 by rocklord » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:12 am

echo1955 wrote:When I finish my Mustang my granddaughter has a 64 Falcon w/170ci in it.
She hasn’t said anything yet but…. proly be me next adventure.. :mrgreen:


Be aware that the 64 170ci has four main bearings, not seven as found in your 65 200ci.

As for oil, you may want to look at Rotella. Dino oil that still has the ZDDP needed for our six.
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #65 by MPGmustang » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:02 pm

echo1955 wrote:Hey Freddy I found the cam.. now all I need do is understand it…

Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
FORD 6 CYL 321256 256 Supercam .450 256° 112° 392-HY


256* @ .450 (.050 it's 112*)

IIRC it's lift is at 256 degrees, and lifts .450 max with stock rocker ratio (1.5) the 112 is the lobe separation, closer together the more it's ment for low end torque, 108*-112* are your options

IMHO for your build stick to torque, shoot for a nice 262/264 duration cam with 108 lobe centers, and advance it 6* (4* for the initial advance @ .050 and 2* more to lower the torque curve operating range) this should give peak torque around 1000-5000 nice for stop and go.
BUT if retaining the C4 auto, stick with the 112 lobe, it will give a better idle. and probably stick to the normal 4* (or .050) timing advance on the cam

The DUI price is more convenient as you know you can't miss anything or forget anything. but the price of 100 bucks can go somewhere else if needed. either way, it's a chunk of change, and the DUI more than pay's for itself IMO on setup time.

GL and Have Fun!!
Richard
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #66 by rbohm » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:33 pm

echo1955 wrote:What does this mean?
Balanced rot/recip assembly


this means that the crankshaft, rods, and pistons were properly balanced. what happens is the pistons are weighed, and then weight is taken off the heaviest pistons until they match the weight of the lightest piston, with in a gram or two.

then the connecting rods are also weighed, first a total weight, then each end is weighed, and again the heaviest rods are machined until they match the lightest rod, again within a gram or two. and this means both in total weight and each end.

then the rod, piston, ring pack, and rod bearings for one cylinder are weighed, and a weight equal to that amount is attached to the crankshaft at each rod journal, and the crank is spun to find where the balance is off. then weight is either added or subtracted as needed from the counterweights. rather like balancing a tire on a dynamic balancer.

After reading all I could I have decided on the DUI ignition. Everything sounds good except the price.. :?


the DUI ignition is a good choice, though as noted somewhat pricey. the nice thing about using the DUI ignition is that everything is contained in the distributor, and you only need one wire to power the system. that way you can clean up some of the wiring in the engine compartment, and minimize troubleshooting efforts if you have an ignition issue.

Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
FORD 6 CYL 321256 256 Supercam .450 256° 112° 392-HY


the .450 is the net valve lift with the stock rocker arms
the 256 is the advertised duration, usually measured at 0-.006" lift depending on the manufacturer.
the 112 degrees is the lobe separation angle. the wider the angle the more dynamic compression you have, the better your low end torque. be careful when using this to help tune an engine combination, because if your static compression ratio is too high, you can very easily run into low speed detonation issues due to too high a dynamic compression ratio. for this lobe separation angle i would keep my static compression ratio around 9.5:1 for best results.
64 falcon
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #67 by echo1955 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:24 pm

rocklord wrote:
echo1955 wrote:When I finish my Mustang my granddaughter has a 64 Falcon w/170ci in it.
She hasn’t said anything yet but…. proly be me next adventure.. :mrgreen:


Be aware that the 64 170ci has four main bearings, not seven as found in your 65 200ci.

As for oil, you may want to look at Rotella. Dino oil that still has the ZDDP needed for our six.


This is the Falcon:
ImageImage

The body inside and out is in christened condition. The engine and bay area needs some tender loving care.

If I get to this one it will be brought up to stock. Nothing intriguing or voodooing.. :beer:

Thank you rocklord I will add Rotella to the choices…

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #68 by echo1955 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:12 pm

MPGmustang wrote:
echo1955 wrote:Hey Freddy I found the cam.. now all I need do is understand it…

Isky #321256 cam (degreed in straight up)
FORD 6 CYL 321256 256 Supercam .450 256° 112° 392-HY


256* @ .450 (.050 it's 112*)

IIRC it's lift is at 256 degrees, and lifts .450 max with stock rocker ratio (1.5) the 112 is the lobe separation, closer together the more it's ment for low end torque, 108*-112* are your options

IMHO for your build stick to torque, shoot for a nice 262/264 duration cam with 108 lobe centers, and advance it 6* (4* for the initial advance @ .050 and 2* more to lower the torque curve operating range) this should give peak torque around 1000-5000 nice for stop and go.
BUT if retaining the C4 auto, stick with the 112 lobe, it will give a better idle. and probably stick to the normal 4* (or .050) timing advance on the cam

The DUI price is more convenient as you know you can't miss anything or forget anything. but the price of 100 bucks can go somewhere else if needed. either way, it's a chunk of change, and the DUI more than pay's for itself IMO on setup time.

GL and Have Fun!!
Richard



Thanks MPGmustang. This is the critical help I need. I have a general understanding of the cam. What I do not know is how far I can go with my stock rear-end and C4 trans.

You have given me a pretty good idea.. This next question may be premature but I’m only trying to see if my thinking is anywhere near reasonable.

IF:
I keep my stock rear-end
I keep my stock C4 trans
My bore is 30 over (3.68+.30=3.98 ??)
My stroke is 3.126” ??
AL heads machined to requirements
Yella Terra Full Roller Rocker ***
Dual Out Header

Can I use a 262/264 duration with a 110* lobe centers and not destroy the trans or rear end using commonsense driving practice.
I would prefer a slight lope idle.. 8)

If the torque converter is too small, is there one I can use that is better and will fit what I have?

***Besides the roller features, I really appreciate the oiling mechanism. :nod:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #69 by echo1955 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:05 pm

rbohm
this means that the crankshaft, rods, and pistons were properly balanced. what happens is the pistons are weighed, and then weight is taken off the heaviest pistons until they match the weight of the lightest piston, with in a gram or two.

then the connecting rods are also weighed, first a total weight, then each end is weighed, and again the heaviest rods are machined until they match the lightest rod, again within a gram or two. and this means both in total weight and each end.

then the rod, piston, ring pack, and rod bearings for one cylinder are weighed, and a weight equal to that amount is attached to the crankshaft at each rod journal, and the crank is spun to find where the balance is off. then weight is either added or subtracted as needed from the counterweights. rather like balancing a tire on a dynamic balancer.


The thought never occurred to me to have this work done.
I understand how important anything that spins in a 360* circle be balanced.
I will have mine balanced as well. Thank you rbohm..

The DUI is still an option for me..

rbohm
1: the .450 is the net valve lift with the stock rocker arms
2: the 256 is the advertised duration, usually measured at 0-.006" lift depending on the manufacturer.
3: the 112 degrees is the lobe separation angle. the wider the angle the more dynamic compression you have, the better your low end torque. be careful when using this to help tune an engine combination, because if your static compression ratio is too high, you can very easily run into low speed detonation issues due to too high a dynamic compression ratio.
4: for this lobe separation angle i would keep my static compression ratio around 9.5:1 for best results.


I have a good handle on number 1-2 and 3.

#4 is my next hurdle.
If I can use a 110* lobe separation how can I determine static compression.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #70 by JackFish » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:39 pm

I'm not sure if you mentioned what transmission you have, but a 112LC is recommended for an automatic.

I don't think balancing a reciprocating assembly is worth the expense unless you're building a race, or heavy-duty work engine.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #71 by bubba22349 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:07 am

how can I determine static compression


Static compression is the total volume of the cylinder (bore dia, by the stroke length) compressed into the Head chamber volume (or CC’s), plus head gasket volume (at its compressed thickness), the pistons deck height i.e. (zero deck has no effect) if its below deck then its added to chamber vol. if its out the top its minus, and also add if the piston has a dish volume.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #72 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:19 am

JackFish wrote:I'm not sure if you mentioned what transmission you have, but a 112LC is recommended for an automatic.

I don't think balancing a reciprocating assembly is worth the expense unless you're building a race, or heavy-duty work engine.


I’m not building a race engine or any sort of competition driving or heavy duty stuff.
I believe I understand why this may not be considered for street driving.
I don’t recall ever having it dun on our boat engines?? But my memory is faded at best..

If the cost is not too expensive I think I like the idea of having everything balanced.
My transmission is a C4 Automatic….

I see where the 112* LC is recommended for a stock rebuild.
I just want a little more punch.. If that is possible..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #73 by CZLN6 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:38 am

Howdy Echo and All:

"My bore is 30 over (3.68+.30=3.98 ??)"

The "30" in this case refers to a .030" overbore. So your new bore size will be 3.71".

While balancing a street engine may not be necessary, I would always go the expense. It makes for a smoother, longer lasting engine and increases my peace of mind.

I love the Falcon. It could be the ultimate sleeper bird. I love the stealthy, sleeper ride.

I sure have been enjoying your journey. Thanks for sharing.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #74 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:42 am

bubba22349 wrote:
how can I determine static compression


1: Static compression is the total volume of the cylinder (bore dia, by the stroke length) compressed into the Head chamber volume (or CC’s),
2: plus head gasket volume (at its compressed thickness), the pistons deck height i.e. (zero deck has no effect)
3: if its below deck then its added to chamber vol. if its out the top its minus, and also add if the piston has a dish volume.


To me this is all greek: But let me try.

1: Bore Dia: x Stroke: (3.98x3.12=12.417)
2: ??
3: ??

I believe I understand 2 & 3 just don’t know how you get there..
Will the machine shop give me this information?

Keep in mind I dropped out of the 11th grade in 55... :?

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #75 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:52 am

CZLN6 wrote:Howdy Echo and All:

"My bore is 30 over (3.68+.30=3.98 ??)"

The "30" in this case refers to a .030" overbore. So your new bore size will be 3.71".

While balancing a street engine may not be necessary, I would always go the expense. It makes for a smoother, longer lasting engine and increases my peace of mind.

I love the Falcon. It could be the ultimate sleeper bird. I love the stealthy, sleeper ride.

I sure have been enjoying your journey. Thanks for sharing.

Adios, David


Thanks David.. dem darn decimal can hang you out ta dry...
I did get it: 3.68x .030= 3.71
I hate ta say this but....math was one of my favorite subjects... :?

ps: me too

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #76 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:08 am

uhhhh well it's late????
3.68 +.030= 3.71

Late sounds good ta me... :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #77 by JackFish » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:25 pm

I'll be honest, I've never priced balancing an engine, except to see that V8s start at about $250 or so.
At that price, if you can afford it, it's certainly worth it, and if you can do some of it yourself, even better.
But engines never come balanced from the factory and they do last a long time under normal driving conditions and regular maintenance.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #78 by MPGmustang » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:05 pm

I love good reads...

ClassicInlines wrote:Simply put, the lobe center of a cam controls where the power curve is applied. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the rpm range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the rpm range. The rpm range is also known as, or refer to as the power band. In general, two degrees of lobe center is equal to approximately 500rpm. Therefore, if a cam with a 110* lobe center has a power range between 2500-6000 RPM, the same cam with a 112* lobe center would have a power range of 3000-6500 RPM. Conversely the same cam with a 108* lobe center would have a power range of 2000-5500 RPM.

http://classicinlines.com/SelectCam.asp

The question is ,
What RPM do you want the most/peak power (HP/Tq) at?
low 1000-2500
mid 1500-3000
high 2000-4000
With the CI alum head I woudn't worry about higher rpm's (2500-5500) as you'll get that naturally, but as your staying stock tranny, rear, and probably tires. your cruise rpm is at ~2500 to 2800 rpm @ 65mph so I would look for a mid range say 1000-4500rpm for decent acceleration and great power at driving speeds,

The more Max Hp/Tq you don't use at rpm, the more mpg u gain.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #79 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:35 pm

JackFish wrote:I'll be honest, I've never priced balancing an engine, except to see that V8s start at about $250 or so.
At that price, if you can afford it, it's certainly worth it, and if you can do some of it yourself, even better.
But engines never come balanced from the factory and they do last a long time under normal driving conditions and regular maintenance.


I understand what you are saying JackFish. My self knowing now the crank and pistons will not be balanced,
I will spend the $$ to have it dune… even though I won’t be able to see, hear or feel it..
my mind and mental psyche will know. :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #80 by echo1955 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:40 pm

MPGmustang wrote:I love good reads...

ClassicInlines wrote:Simply put, the lobe center of a cam controls where the power curve is applied. The tighter the lobe center, the lower the rpm range; the wider the lobe center, the higher the rpm range. The rpm range is also known as, or refer to as the power band. In general, two degrees of lobe center is equal to approximately 500rpm. Therefore, if a cam with a 110* lobe center has a power range between 2500-6000 RPM, the same cam with a 112* lobe center would have a power range of 3000-6500 RPM. Conversely the same cam with a 108* lobe center would have a power range of 2000-5500 RPM.

http://classicinlines.com/SelectCam.asp


I hate to confess this but I have read all of those teck articles several tines over.
The only 2 places where I stumble are with determining the compression even though the formula is clearly visible. I will just have to wait until I get my block back on that..
And
Cam selection with me wanting to keep my current rear-end and trans…
If I was going to change the RE and Trans I would have no problem with cam selection…


The question is ,
What RPM do you want the most/peak power (HP/Tq) at?
low 1000-2500
mid 1500-3000
high 2000-4000
With the CI alum head I woudn't worry about higher rpm's (2500-5500) as you'll get that naturally, but as your staying stock tranny, rear, and probably tires. your cruise rpm is at ~2500 to 2800 rpm @ 65mph so I would look for a mid range say 1000-4500rpm for decent acceleration and great power at driving


I want a mild idle lope.
I like the mid range for most/peak power
I was looking at this
Class II (215° - 230°)
Fair idle quality. Good low to mid range torque and horsepower. Will work with stock or modified engine. For use with manual or automatic transmission with mild stall converter. Lower vacuum than stock.
And these 2 cams.
264D-110: 264/274 - 214/224 - .450/.450 - 110* - 1600-5200
Or
264S-110: 264/264 - 214/214 - .450/.450 - 110* - 1400-5000

I will let my grandson deal with the trans, rear-end disk breaks should he take the interest when his time comes..
He’s only 8 now..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #81 by FalconSedanDelivery » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:44 pm

If you pick a cam that lopes , YOU WONT like the way it runs , unless you spring for the converter change .
Falcon 6's, FE's I Like them both , Sold all My 6 cyl stuff ( for now at least ) glad to pass along some tips though

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #82 by echo1955 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:10 am

FalconSedanDelivery wrote:If you pick a cam that lopes , YOU WONT like the way it runs , unless you spring for the converter change .


Is there a converter out there I can buy and fit what I have:
If so what do I ask for and where can I get one:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #83 by echo1955 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:19 am

Thanks FalconSedanDelivery


Maybe a better way to phrase my question would be:

This is what I want to keep:
Stock trans:
Stock rear-end:
Add:
Al Heads:
Tri Carb Intake:
Moly Piston Rings:
Yella Terra Full Roller Rocker:
Dual Roller Timing Chain:
Dual Out Header:

This is what I want when finished:
Midrange 1000-4500rpm peak power
Mild rough idle
Premium gas if necessary:

Q: Is there a cam available to satisfy all of the above?
Now knowing I would need to change the converter. Not a problem..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #84 by echo1955 » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:25 am

FalconSedanDelivery wrote:If you pick a cam that lopes , YOU WONT like the way it runs , unless you spring for the converter change .


I found this converter. Will it work.
http://racetransmissions.com/store/prod ... ts_id/1104

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #85 by JackFish » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:45 am

Do you have a low-mount starter?
The high mount starter uses a variation of the C4 that has the ring gear welded on to the torque converter.
Not sure if what you're looking at would work.
Again, if you're using an automatic transmission you don't want a rough idle cam. They don't make enough vacuum, AFAIK. the 112° LC cam is recommended for an automatic for that very reason, and although it does have a bit of a lope below 1000rpm I can't say for sure that in my case it's due to the cam, and not something else. BTW I am running the 264/274/112° cam. You might look at the 268/274 from Classic Inlines, it's just one step up.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #86 by MPGmustang » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:25 pm

ClasicInlines wrote:Isky Racing Cams - USA
Hydraulic Lifter Cams
248: 248/248 - 194/194 - .415/.415 - 109* - 1000-3800
256: 256/256 - 202/202 - .450/.450 - 112* - 1500-4800


the 256 is stock diration, BUT the lift is not! it's the desired lift, this should give more low end like your looking for, and your roller rockers should come in a 1.65 ratio makeing the power band come 500rpm sooner, so the 256 would look like

256: 256/256 - 202/202 - .495/.495 - 112* - 1000-4800

It's the only one I found with a 112* lobe center. should make plenty of vacuum!
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #87 by MPGmustang » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:27 pm

echo1955 wrote:I will let my grandson deal with the trans, rear-end disk breaks should he take the interest when his time comes..
He’s only 8 now..


I can be your grand son while u wait... :D
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #88 by FalconSedanDelivery » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:24 pm

echo1955 wrote:
FalconSedanDelivery wrote:If you pick a cam that lopes , YOU WONT like the way it runs , unless you spring for the converter change .


I found this converter. Will it work.
http://racetransmissions.com/store/prod ... ts_id/1104

No , You have the converter that has the ring gear on it , some companies will CUSTOM build one , BUT it will be over 600.00, Stay mild with the cam and a112 at min lobe center , if you would build a 250 , then yes that converter would work
Falcon 6's, FE's I Like them both , Sold all My 6 cyl stuff ( for now at least ) glad to pass along some tips though

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #89 by echo1955 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:48 am

JackFish wrote:Do you have a low-mount starter?
The high mount starter uses a variation of the C4 that has the ring gear welded on to the torque converter.
Not sure if what you're looking at would work.
Again, if you're using an automatic transmission you don't want a rough idle cam. They don't make enough vacuum, AFAIK. the 112° LC cam is recommended for an automatic for that very reason, and although it does have a bit of a lope below 1000rpm I can't say for sure that in my case it's due to the cam, and not something else. BTW I am running the 264/274/112° cam. You might look at the 268/274 from Classic Inlines, it's just one step up.


The pix is w/o the 3 bolt starter (high mount?) but the torque converter starter ring is welded on
Image Image

I plan to put in a new converter stall at 3300 to 3500 just in case.
I found the 268/274 here http://www.classicinlines.com/SelectCam.asp
And the 264/274/112° here http://www.classicinlines.com/CamCompare.asp
I will add both to my selection options.
Thank you…

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #90 by echo1955 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:57 am

MPGmustang wrote:
ClasicInlines wrote:Isky Racing Cams - USA
Hydraulic Lifter Cams
248: 248/248 - 194/194 - .415/.415 - 109* - 1000-3800
256: 256/256 - 202/202 - .450/.450 - 112* - 1500-4800


the 256 is stock diration, BUT the lift is not! it's the desired lift, this should give more low end like your looking for, and your roller rockers should come in a 1.65 ratio makeing the power band come 500rpm sooner, so the 256 would look like

256: 256/256 - 202/202 - .495/.495 - 112* - 1000-4800

It's the only one I found with a 112* lobe center. should make plenty of vacuum!


That is an Isky cam. I would rather use Clay Smith. He did all of our boat motors back in the 70's. Unbeatable work...
It looks as tho I will Have to stay with a 112* after all... It seams my converter sucks..

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #91 by echo1955 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:27 am

FalconSedanDelivery wrote:
echo1955 wrote:
FalconSedanDelivery wrote:If you pick a cam that lopes , YOU WONT like the way it runs , unless you spring for the converter change .


I found this converter. Will it work.
http://racetransmissions.com/store/prod ... ts_id/1104

No , You have the converter that has the ring gear on it , some companies will CUSTOM build one , BUT it will be over 600.00, Stay mild with the cam and a112 at min lobe center , if you would build a 250 , then yes that converter would work


Hey FalconSedanDelivery Image is one of the smallest words known to mankind:
BUT
It is the Biggest, Strongest most Powerful word ever used in any language.

You could put “IF’ in front of any major world event and IF applied would have changed global history:

As it applies to me...... :mrgreen:
Image I had a 250…..
So now what.. Like someone remarked earlier... once you get started one thing leads to another...and so on... :?

I think I will call tomorrow and see what the cost would be.. I could replace the whole trans if I had to… http://racetransmissions.com/store/prod ... ts_id/1066

By the way. .thank you for the eye catch. :thumbup: Never thought the ring wasn’t a heat sink type..
O well stuff do happen hu…

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #92 by echo1955 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:33 am

MPGmustang wrote:
echo1955 wrote:I will let my grandson deal with the trans, rear-end disk breaks should he take the interest when his time comes..
He’s only 8 now..


I can be your grand son while u wait... :D



hahahahahahah
yea you would...

uh ra uhhhh..say.......grand son iffen ya spring fer da aluminum head y ya could have a hundderd pocent say wid da cam c lection.....

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #93 by echo1955 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:23 pm

I called Monster they cant help. I called DACCO and they can make a 3300 stall that will fit my C4 for 360 + tax.
This is my “”flywheel””
Image

Now I’m thinking there is a good reason Monster does not build a high stall converter for this model.
I wonder if this “”flywheel”” will survive the torque my build will be capable of delivering to it?

My wife of 50 years ask me just the other day what the heck I was doing to the car. She has zero knowledge of anything mechanical.
She refers to 3/4 (three quarter) as 3 fourths. duhhh
I showed her a picture of jdn21758 3 carb build…

She looked at it and immediately said
“ that sure is pretty honey but I don’t think it will fit under the hood”” :?

Now I’m wondering if I had her in at the beginning she wouldn’t have taken one look at the transmission and said..
“” gee honey that sure is pretty but I don’t think its big enough”” :mrgreen:

So I apologize to every one here for putting yall through the ringer with this cam business..

Back to square one.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #94 by bubba22349 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:34 pm

You could swap in a later model C4 and gain the better shifting valve body, and stronger input shaft too. It would be mostly a bolt in only real visible exterior change to car would be a 1967 or up shifter. Add a shift kit and could handle the mods you wanted to do.
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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #95 by echo1955 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:12 am

bubba22349 wrote:You could swap in a later model C4 and gain the better shifting valve body, and stronger input shaft too. It would be mostly a bolt in only real visible exterior change to car would be a 1967 or up shifter. Add a shift kit and could handle the mods you wanted to do.


Don’t look now but I think you have just revived me…..
Could you be more specific. What C4 would I be asking for from a latter model.
And what shifter kit would I ask for.

Remember I was not sharp enough to catch that flippen would be“”flywheel””
And I have actually changed the ring gear on 2 real flywheels.

You can not imagine how small I felt when I finally realized what I had for a flywheel…talk about depressed….duhhhhhh :shock:

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #96 by FalconSedanDelivery » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:27 am

Unfortunately , Changing the year of the trans WON"T help with the expensive converter deal , only if you had a late low mount 200 or a 250 would it get cheaper,the reg 144-200 use the same Converter / flexplate deal , the 70.5 models being the best C-4's but they to still use the same style as you already have
Falcon 6's, FE's I Like them both , Sold all My 6 cyl stuff ( for now at least ) glad to pass along some tips though

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #97 by echo1955 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:31 am

Anyone familiar with this WEBER CARBURATOR SYNCHRONIZER SYNCROMETER
Image

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #98 by echo1955 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:38 am

FalconSedanDelivery wrote:Unfortunately , Changing the year of the trans WON"T help with the expensive converter deal , only if you had a late low mount 200 or a 250 would it get cheaper,the reg 144-200 use the same Converter / flexplate deal ,
the 70.5 models being the best C-4's but they to still use the same style as you already have


Would this one have a stronger internal design.

I can back off my original goal with adding torque. but if this 70.5 model is a stronger trans with additional shift benefits i could change latter on.

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #99 by echo1955 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:12 pm

Any one know anything about this Carter fuel pump:
Image

The claim is 60 to 70 gpm but only 4psi output

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Re: Rebuild 65 200 I6 Block.

Post #100 by MPGmustang » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:10 pm

A stock C4 is not to be underestimated, V8's use the same C4 that the i6's carry and house 200hp and never give any problems. the only difference is the size of bell housing, and torque converter. your stock converter will cover any power increase mods that you add with not problems. the only downside is the stall rpm. I don't understand the complete mechanics of what the stall rpm does but I suspect it's a true 1:1 spin ratio, at a higher rpm.

your current C4 and converter will handle aything you throw at it. it won't hurt it. the only things you need to worry about is the proper vacuum signal and the converter we can help you find the right one. that is why it's suggested to stick with a 112 lobe center to keep as much vacuum as possible for ur stock C4.

I think your C4 will be perfectly capable of handling ANY naturally inspired mods you throw at it. and IMO I believe the stock converter to be fine withur choice of (264/274 112* .450)* cam.
*might be a little lumpy but should idle decently 650-800 rpm
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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