lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log head.

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autoX65
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lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log head.

Post #1 by autoX65 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:30 am

I can say thanks to ford six I have seen a handful of people who have successfully and been willing to share their cut off small and large log heads.

like anything I'm sure there have been many people who have talked about it and I was inspired and designed on paper several ways it can be done. I also went in depth designing and calculating variables to have a tuned intake for my engine.

I've also got a core to work with and machined off only the log so far and blasted it clean with walnut shell media.

so check out my recent log in the link and notice the beer cap for size reference. after cutting off the log I had to take a step back and have a beer. then the ideas started flowing like port on port carburetor, tunnel rake intake, aluminum intake options, and even thinking four barrel under a six to one collector with a nos fogger system.

lots of options and would like to hear ideas or people with experience doing it.

I've already got the build underway and am going with a tubular tunnel ram aluminum one piece bolt on intake so the design is on paper, supplies ordered, and in the hands of a qualified builder/ machinists.

so I would love to share all the info and time I've put into the design as well as pictures if I get some good feed back on this project so just look at this log and share your thoughts and I can go as in depth with my intake design as you can relate to it so get me in the sharing mood :)

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/autoX ... sort=3&o=1

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #2 by Econoline » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:49 am

I can't wait to see what you come up with and how you do flanges.
It ain't gonna fix itself

1964 Econoline 170 3.03 on the tree swapped to a 250 with an aod, custom front boosted disc brakes and 3.70 9" rear axle
1993 F-150 xl 4x4 4.9 5-speed, Mazda manual stock
1992 Jeep Cherokee 2-door 4.0, 5-speed manual
1989 Toyota Cressida 3.0, auto

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #3 by cr_bobcat » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:56 am

Right on man! I'll definitely be tuning in from home!
Block: Stock C8 Block/pistons, C9-M head, 1.75/1.5 valves, dual spring, 1.65 RAU Rockers, port divider, direct mount Holley 4412-500, HEI w/20* advance, manifold vac, dual-out Arvinode exhaust, Clay Smith 264/274 110* installed w/ 4* advance, adjustable dual chain timing, C4 w/ shift kit, 3.20 (TBC) rear ratio, 9.44 SCR / 7.97 DCR

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #4 by Soldmy66 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:24 am

Subbed.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #5 by rbohm » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:46 am

study some of xctasy's posts on the small six for some really excellent ideas.
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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #6 by powerband » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:55 pm

Sure hope you try something interesting with the shaved heads

Your pics also included a 2300 series carb?. I have been running an Offy Tri-Power setup with the 3 intake port adapter on a 250. Recently I modified the three input port adapter with a Hi-Rise Plenum with a 500cfm 2300 series which fits nice on a 2X4 steel plenum., considered cutting outer half of a log manifold for an added 2X4 / 2300 plenum component, there are pics somewhere with pipe-threaded stub ports welded to a plenum ... Your intake would be Hex-Power intake ? ...




. Image . . Image . Image . Image . Image


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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #7 by autoX65 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:20 pm

Edit: double post
Last edited by autoX65 on Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #8 by autoX65 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:24 pm

Thanks for the encouragement. That's right it's a 2300 series carb model 2305 progressive 500cfm Holley with mechanical secondaries so I engineered this intake around this carburetor even though with a custom intake I'm sure I could go up to 750cfm 4 barrel for all out race but it's designed for the street and this carb will give me best drivability and 500cfm is still a big jump from the 170ish from 1940 Holley.

Okay so ill catch you guys up to speed since I've already had this underway and has been years in the planning so it's a long read but I've gone over most options with welding the log and considered it but I'm going removable bolt on instead of welding the flanges and I looked into many fillers and rods but it's not easy to weld cast iron especially to steel or any other metal and even worse in automotive parts under heavy heat and pressure cycles. Even though people have done it and logs many miles welding steel to fast exhaust manifolds and what not so it is possible but I'm not getting into all the welding and metal working options that's a whole nother ball park.

Read up on the next posts and it's a lot to take in but let's talk if you can keep up because I believe I have the right audience here and people's experiences and feed back like power band who's done it will be helpful for all of us. I love your plenum design as well over the 3 offey setup which in itself is a hard mod to the log and you've gone and out a plenum on it....sweet!

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #9 by autoX65 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:38 pm

I've had my 65 mustang 3.3l build going on the last 8 months now since my last rebuild that lasted years and just as i had everything ready for finally assembly I had the urge for a change. had a fully built 4.1l large log ford i6 head built with stainless steel valves, springs wih dampners, sspring cups, viton seals, oversized valves, and blended bowls. with a built up brazed intake for a direct mount 500cfm holley 2 barrel. the log is for sure a major upgrade that will over double hp over the originally small log with single barrel. naturally aspirated will make hp which is great for a 200. but I've got all that fuel capability and the head is still the limitation.

I have seen this head modified a small hand full of times with mixed results and dyno numbers. most seem to fall off the face of the earth(id heard about it once and never again from them.) so I decided to go back to a small log and cut off only the log, left exhaust intact. so all runners are open and my machinists is working on milling the runners flat then counter Boring to slide in 1.25 inch tubular stubs. that has all gone smoothly and I have a few ideas id like to get opinions on which would be what is the beat way to get stubs bonded to the antique cast iron head.

-my best guess is mild steel and braze with silicone bronze or a made for cast rod or even nickle may work with pre and post heat treatment required for some of these options
- second idea is orings around the stubs all on a flange then bolts or studs though the flange into the head(there is enough meat to drill and tap for this) similar idea to fuel injector rails.
-last idea may be jb weld the stubs.

hat is where the builder is stuck because cast iron is rarely welded to steel...let alone in automotive applications.

that's the main part if yout know what rod or filler to weld cast and mild steel with please let me know or I'm welcome to any ideas/input or comments.

from those stubs at a 45 degree angle I will weld up a tubular hi rise ram intake.

I spent a lot of time answering questions for this intake and calculation variables with my parameters.

my thought process started like this for my intake design.
- should I have 100% intake volume of the engine( 200ci engine with 200 inches cubes of intake volume.
-establish cross sectional area of runner. then I asked how long should runners be to be that volume. and is 100% engine volume ideal?
-best material for the build?(steel, mild steel, stainless steel and even looked into aluminum.
-how to find intake runner volume?
-size and length of runner will effect volumetric efficiency?
-what will my rpms range be along with power curves(peak torque and hp)
-how to get the tunnel ram effect and factor in valve closing pulse resonance going up and down the intake as valves slam such. this can be to your advantage with the correct length or will send terrible harmonics through your intake if not.


that's a start for anyone to ask themself when building a custom intake so you can have some data to start working with. also important to consider are under hood clearances issues.

I have all these answers in my notes for my build and engine specs.

so far tubing cross section is limited to 1.25 inch tubes so I calculated if each runner is 28 inches from valve to throttle body that would give me 207 cubic inches of intake volume which equals the engines displacement of 207ci.

from there narrowed down peak torque should be at 3195 rpms. from there the ram effect I'm after which is the valve timing pulses going up and down the runners and the valve closes. this is happening at the speed of sound so it would take over a ten foot runner to get the ram effect on the first order pulse length. so naturally you may have to divide runner length to be on the 4th or 5th pulse. nascar intakes work off the 3rd pulse so 4 and fifth is desirable for a street intake.

so I decided. to factor valve timing and duration for my application, vs peak torque rpm, along with intake runner variables. I came up with a runner length of 32.4 inches to hit the 3rd pulse and fourth pulse would be 24.144 inch length of each runner. so kinds of in the middle of the 28 inches I calculated roll see where 100% intake volume vs displacement would be. room. Is not an issue I will have these going straight up and down in the air out of the hood.

so I decided that with my limitation of a 1.25 inch diameter tube I would like to build the intake runner each 32.4 inches long.

this is a hi performance street/strip engine and just off calculations I've come up with that which should provide great low end to mid range torque torque and add some real horsepower. the consensus says long skinny runners for a torque motor and short and fat for rpms.

so first off and idea beat way to weld or braze tubular stubs to the cast iron head?
second enlighten me on the intake design to make sure I'm going in the right direction because I'm stuck with 1.25inch tubes so length is my main concern.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #10 by autoX65 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:50 pm

2 the originally plenum is only 1250cc=76 cubic inches so ill be at 207 cubic inches for this intake build. more then double stock. as well as originally this was an economy engine with a single barrel at 175cfm. check out the photbucket link I tracked down a holley produced on the early 70s designed for the australian crossflow 3.6-4.1l inline six so much different from a 2300 holley with revised passages, factory annular booster, and its mechanically progressive like a webber 32/36 or holley 5200. so I will be more then double stock flow numbers and should retain the best drivabilty, performance, and economy if I can stay off the pedal it will be cruising off only one of the venturis.



3 so to make this manifold happen I need a pole on these options
-welding one piece intake straight to the head. it would be mild steel tubes or stainless steel. welding with bronze silicone on a tig welded(heard it penetrates better then grazing) so it could be welded with that or I've heard really good things about certanium 889sp for mig and certanium 89t on the tig. its a nicole content made for cast repair or cast to steel with no pre or post heat juat weld and let it cool at room temp.

option two would have a flange with six tubular stubs across it. then the tubes would press into the runners with o rings and I would drill and tap the head to bolt the flange all the way across the runners. since it would be removable I will go aluminum in this case and I am leaning toward this because it may be the easiest to maintain and reproduce Incased the head ever cracked or something.

so those two are the best ways I can think. let me know what everyone thinks and if yiu have another idea I'm all for it. welding sounds nice because I know down the line an o ring is more prone to give. so the second flange idea I'm only considering because I could then go aluminum and not have to stress about any welding. but if I go with mild or stainless steel id prefer the one piece all welded.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #11 by autoX65 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:00 am

I do believe I have found the satisfactory answers to most of my questions for this intake build but I need some real world builders that know what these engines like.

I made some final calculations and found peak torque for my engine and camshaft will be at 3300rpms. intake cross section for the tubes will be one inch and a quarter. on the second sound wave length from valve to plenum(6 tubular runners to a 6 into one collector with tapered ends under the carburetors base plate. two options on design from here in regard to the last variable undecided: length of runners? the second induction wave would need a length of 23.29" for each runner, 3rd pulse for ram effect would have a shorter length of 15.32" since fourth wave doesn't leave enough for design of my intake with 11.33" runners I left the decision between the first two...

the engines a low to mid torque engine designed with a valve timing arounder that, a low torque header home fabricated too so it should be making good low end torque so between the two options the longer 23 inch runners I would consider to be a low torque design with the carburetor and fuel so far away so I think the 15 inch will still produce mid range torque and hopefully help pull in the higher rpms with the fuel and intake capable of that. or should I go with the 23 inch length and keep everything designed around the low end torque.

I read on the original ford six 200 with a single barrel in dyno tests just with out the carburetors spacer (carb closer to runners) there was a 10% power increase then before with the spacer. I ran this engine in stock configuration and different that test for myself and it was noticeable from the pedal. with the carb closer to the runners it had a much sportier feel and would rev and pull much faster! with the spacer it was a dog and would rev much slower and had a very powerful torque pull like a tractor. I liked it much better with out the spacer.

so my thought is to keep it close to the runners and go with the shorter length of 15 inch runners. I've got annual booster that help throttle response especially neccesary in a build like this to make sure all the fuel is atomized and distributed evenly.

so I've got all my build plans and feel confident with my designs so week end is when I will get into the fabrication and id imagine 25-45 hours will go into it over the next few weeks unless I can knock it all out in a weekend(possible)

1). input on the runner length described in this post what do you think of a 15 inch length?
2)what do you think of the six to on collector under the carb vs building a plenum ontop the tubes?
and last
3) what would you do have it all welded as a one piece intake on the cylinder head?
-or build it all on a flange and make it removable or(" bolt on")... if you can entertain that idea?

both are same amount of work and time for the two options and are with possible ....I'm leaning toward one piece and can remove the head if I need to clean or maintain it. but I do really think with press in tubes with orings on a flange would be the more modern look. this is an antique car too so one piece also retains the simple nostalgia.

So that's a little catching you guys up on design I'm pretty much going to do my thing and start building unless I get some serious feedback on it over the next few days that can persuade me.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #12 by MustangSix » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:35 pm

I'm going to recommend a slightly more radical approach - Individual Runners. Motorcycle carbs are cheap and very tunable or you could go with the EFI throttle bodies as well. Microsquirt that thing for under $500.

Several years ago I tried an IR approach using Mikuni carbs on the Locost. While it ran well at speed I had difficulty getting it to settle into a good idle. Mostly I attribute that to my lousy approach to linking all six carbs together.

But my recent experience with my son's Zetec powered MGB has been really good. We used Keihins from a Kawasaki ZX9R. With no tuning at all it fired up and ran extremely well and was only just a little lean on top end. We richened up the main jet a little and it is a blast to drive. It pulls from idle to the 7500rpm redline with no hesitation or flat spots and holds idle smooth and solid. We had to use a regulator to keep the fuel pressure down to under 2psi.

Eventually we plan to switch the carbs for EFI Hayabusa throttle bodies. Cheap and easy to adapt - you just clamp them to an intake tube. The injector bungs are integral and the end carb holds the TPS sensor. The bodies separate by taking the threaded rods off. You can then add two more with the appropriate spacers and link them by just tacking on a straight flat tab to the linkage.

Carb or EFI, it is super easy to add these to the ex-log head by just brazing on some tubing for the intake. As far as length, don't overthink it. There are so many variables that go into tuning the total engine and intake tract length, volume, and cross section are only part of the equation. Point is, it won't really make a big difference if you made the runner 4 inches or 15 inches. Just do whatever is most easily packaged under the hood.
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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #13 by autoX65 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:00 pm

I love port on port I've got a 750 kawasaki and have had to do a rebuild once on the 4 linked together carbs so id say that's within my realm since I have rebuilt a good amount of bike carbs. its a great option and has been done check out this video on a 200 ford with six cvk40s, and a comp cams 252h which is undercammed.

id like to stay with an intake rather then flange for six carbs just to keep it highly tunable with a holley and would be much better for power adders. I do have some interest for port on port carbs on a 200 but I'm much more motivated to do the tubular intake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-EVAnY7 ... ata_player

I'm also confident I've got a solid removable intake design that my machinists agrees with so i do see how bike carbs could mount right on the tubes of individual runners and if I can make it all removable I sure would love different intake setups
and this will be much easier to see once the removable flange is made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyTHu3Nk ... ata_player

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #14 by gb500 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:18 pm

good project will be watching with interest .


have you seen/used the pipemax programe ?

can calculate all the inlet runners sizes , lengths, exhaust size and lengths, cams lift etc etc to complement it all as a package

approx $70 - takes abit of understanding to interpret the results

http://www.maxracesoftware.com/PIPE395.htm

maybe all academic -and you're on your way .

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #15 by autoX65 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:38 pm

I have not used that software but i have been looking into some more engine software and that looks reasonable. Thanks

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #16 by autoX65 » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:44 pm

you really think runner length won't matter much? I plan to set it up close as possible to the runners.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #17 by MustangSix » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:49 am

Runner length is just one of several things in the equation. For example, suppose you carefully compute the diameter and length of the optimal intake for a particular rpm or load, yet the cam is operating elsewhere, or the exhaust is operating elsewhere, or your gearing is elsewhere, or the timing, or fuel curve.......

You could painstakingly design a total engine system that optimizes (or at least has fewer compromises) all these and end up with something like a 300 hp 3.3L M3, but in our case with a chopped-log case we already have so many intake, exhaust, camshaft, ignition, combustion chamber, etc. compromises that a couple of inches of intake runner, one way or the other, probably doesn't significantly affect the outcome.

Would it make a difference? Sure. You might move peak power or peak torque up or down by a few. I'm just saying that in the real world sometimes just getting everything to fit is a better solution than optimal runner lengths. Example : This design works great - but wont fit a Mustang.
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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #18 by rbohm » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:44 am

jack is right, unless you are building a race engine, dont worry too much about having the perfect pipe length, diameter, or the pipes being equal length. remember the very first compromise is going to be making the package fit the area where it is going to sit.
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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #19 by autoX65 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:53 am

rbohm wrote:jack is right, unless you are building a race engine, dont worry too much about having the perfect pipe length, diameter, or the pipes being equal length. remember the very first compromise is going to be making the package fit the area where it is going to sit.


excellent...so I would love to keep the momentum going but I won't have the supplies till next week so I estimate this will take shape between the next 2-3 weeks.so ill update it when I'm making progress but I'm loving all the great info and interest on here.

I will really be anxious to see what this will do to rear wheel hp and torque because off my simulations I expect to see significant gains but real world I would be extatic if I could get into the flywheel 250-270 hp which I think is realistic.


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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #21 by Funky Cricket » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:37 pm

Interesting.
I think if you are going as far as to press and seal in tubes into the existing intake ports removing the log, I'd keep them short and have a flat flange, Then you can bolt on a custom intake, box, or individual runners.

Very neat! I'm subscribing.
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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #22 by xctasy » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:18 pm

Wish you the best and totally encourage you in your efforts.....what you are suggesting will work brilliantly. Your down the road to avoiding a multiple carb solution, which is always the standard United States reponse to reliable, long term maintenace free horsepower generation. The dislike for balancing throttle linkages is the reason for going to a tunnel ram single carb.


I personally ditched further work on the single 2-bb or 4-bbl Holley carb 6PT intake adaptor I was working, not because it didn't work...I just found out what was the best way to make independent runner systems reliable and more powerfull with less effort. Again, the United States guys taught me that multiple throttle body induction could be blanaced via IAC and kept servicable from aftermarket worked versions on the CrossFire 82 and 84-86 Corvette and 305 F car versions of the twin CFI setups. http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tbi/4 ... odies.html

I will never be going back to single carb options, you and I are at philosphical different postions, and I've spent 2 years of my own time looking at what your doing.


Since I know that the log head isn't a pinch point if its worked, cutting off the log is a bold move I won't be bothering with becasue there are easier ways. My 6VO and 6Ri adpators bolt to the log head, and make three carbs work reliably, and allow port EFI. Its personal, not a vote of no confidence in the idea's you have.


Powerband is where you at, your just doing the same thing in tube.


Some ideas follow which will help you on your way.

Powerband and I did discuss the idea of a 6-bbl intake on one log head, a sort of 6-bbl version of the EAO Lima 2300 efi turbo intake manifold. That could take one 2-bbl Holley. The 2305 eliminates the worst problem on the 2300 series carb...it has much better air fuel distribution, without biasing flow to any particular cylinders.

Image


Seams to me you are simpliying it a step further, like building an upturned Frenchtownflyer intake with just on Holley 2-bbl.

Like this, only down draft.


Seams like your halfway there, and you may not even need tubes

Image


Plenty of times, a side draft version of the a tunnel ram concpet has been done.


More impressive than the triple DCOE 45 conversion to Datsun 24/26 and 28 Ounces is the 4-bbl 390 #8007 Holley adaptor to the stock engine that came with twin Hitachi SU intake manifolds.

There are two types, an Arizona Z fully cast 4-bbl and a more interseting stock Z car two SU adaptor to 4-bbl. Seams to me a nice 1:1 linkage 2305 or a good old 2300 500 cfm 2-bbl would work.

http://www.datsunclassifieds.com/auto-p ... -4071.html

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/69355-4-barrel-intake/

http://arizonazcar.com/cars.html

http://arizonazcar.com/azcM2506.JPG

http://bringatrailer.com/2012/09/29/bat ... -race-car/
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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #23 by autoX65 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:40 pm

thanks xstacy,

I've always been a fan of multiple carburetor engines at shows. it shows a lot of building and fabrication skills and I always give a thumbs up to the guys who can maintain and tune a port on port fuel system.

the third gen corvette link with the crossfire intake and multiple throttle bodies sure is a good read and love the pictures in it, true ingenuity.

how far did out go with mounting up the four barrel adaptor or a two barrel set up?

I've been playing with the idea of modifying a log head for two years now as well and this first attempt is very similar to that you and powerband mentioned with the six port intake and a two or four barrel on top but I've seen some close designs but I'm really looking forward to bringing my own design to life.

I hope this leads me to other ventures down the road if this bolt on flange works well it will be possible to have different intake setups on it like the tunnel ram and ya I guess you could say its a tunned down tunnel ram with one carb instead of three 2300s like frenchtown flyer but same concept. as well as the side draft tunnel ram custom rectangular intake that is a sweet picture! I think the log will have a better shot of making the forced induction effect because the intake does have the angle straight into the cylinder so it should really flow some cfm.

all the aluminum supplies should be in this week and I ended up going with 6063 t5 thick wall pipe and all the flanges for the runners and plenum are pretty thick at .375" inch so the runners will be set up on a jig to shape and bend as much as possible then cut and weld and turns that can't be bent as well as weld the flanges to the new aluminum runners, weld up the plenum and carb base.

I believe od of inserted runners are 1.315 and inner diameter is 1.049" so its got a real thick wall. had to get an adjustable counterbore for the machine work to fit the pipes and I hope these are not to much of a pain to work with and fabricate.

but I wanted the tube as thick as possible so it can be machined in the future for fuel injector rails and a single throttle body as that's a viable upgrade down the road.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #24 by autoX65 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:10 pm

I enjoyed the links about the Nissan racers as well some of those four barrel intake look nice as well as the triple webbers.

I was going to say I foundsome viton o rings the right size I want to try to seal the tubes in the runners so I will have a groove machined on the tube for the o rings that will slide into thr counterbored head so what do you guys think.....go with the viton o rings which are up to spec or does anyone have a source for copper o rings I've not been able to find them online.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #25 by autoX65 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:40 pm

time to port and polish this turd.

its actually nice to finally get to the log intake runner for porting which otherwise can't be done. the outside diameter of the runners are 1.5 and the inside roughly 1.25-1.3" because they are not circular(more of an oval 0 ).

so valve train gear ill get from classic inlines and plan to use their stainless steel intake and exhaust valves. Iintake valve will be the 1.75 which in perfect theory can support 310hp on a 1 intake valve six cylinder.

so the more I get into it this log does have relatively small intake runners which will produce peak hp at 5200rpms or more when ported. so the runnerscross section is the main power limiting factor.

based of engine simulation software my 207circular at 80% volumetric efficiency with 509 cubic feet of air per minute could put the 200 at 340 crank hp in a perfect world. but some of the joys in dealing with 50 year old engine technology a big lack of any available head to make power about 5500rpms so my intake design will unfortunatly not improve the rpm band as much as I hoped but I believe it will make a true peak hp appearance at that 5200-5500 rpms and if I was going to race it I'm sure a modern camshaft could carry the usable rpm band up a good amount very similar to a small log with a single barrel 1100 for example which would never make peak power near 5000rpms but that's why people upgrade the cam so they can actually use the higher rpms even though they are not making true power there. similar to if I wanted to cam it up I'm sure I could carry this engine upwards of 6200rpms with the big carb but this is not a race engine just trying to improve efficiencies and drivability.

and my cut off log is coming a good way but as ironic as it is to say the log is still the pinch point with small intake runners 1.3" or less and the terrible flowing exhaust and small valves so the aluminum head is really sounding nice right now because even after modifying whatever intake you think is best the small valves and runners still are a big limit. so I really doubt to see huge power gains by this maybe just more efficient so this is certainly a street intake and I think the large log cut off like fast64ranchero and gt turbo at 90degrees with the flange is the only way to make real power but that's still limited by the 1.75" intake valve too so I hope this explains why they say port on port carburation for power if peak hp is your concern.

this build is certain to see improvements over the log but the log really is not so bad when worked right it will still make power in the street rpm band very similar to the aluminum head but there is really no option to make true peak power at high rpms with the 200/250 so great street engines they remain and as for power I don't think a large log done right with port on port could beat when built to race specs.

so off to porting out my cut up log I go and ill do a little on each port...repeat ...repeat and see how far I get and all my metal supplies spent 85 on the tubing and flange and plenum hardware so ill be excited to start fabricating the intake and even though it may not make much more power then a large log 2v it will be sure to catch some eyes and by next week should take shape.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #26 by autoX65 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:52 pm

so when they say the log is the pinch point they are not talking about the intake design as the pinch point its really just the whole head is the pinch and is limited to low - mid range street use with small valves being the biggest pinch but the only really benefit I see to cutting off the intake is to port it and hopefully so to come get it on a dyno to see what it will do.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #27 by autoX65 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:57 am

this is my first time working the exhaust ports on about 5+ log heads I have built so I'm a little nervous about some velocity loss but I think it will be a good improvements because the stock ports are so small barely an inch square. I've got two of the ports all the way to 1.25*1.25 squares so that's a pretty big improvement and ports look noticeably bigger...I'm trying to not go to wide on the runners and giving more attention to the hieght of the runner but still a long way to go on porting I spent about 1.5 hours this evening and still have a long way to go so ill get a pic of it all ported out by the week end.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #28 by ausxb » Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:55 am

I'm watching with interest to see how this works out.
250 2v XB Falcon.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #29 by my way » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:42 am

autoX65 wrote:so when they say the log is the pinch point they are not talking about the intake design as the pinch point its really just the whole head is the pinch and is limited to low - mid range street use with small valves being the biggest pinch but the only really benefit I see to cutting off the intake is to port it and hopefully so to come get it on a dyno to see what it will do.

A straight runner has got to be better than a 90 corner. I am playing with the same thing waiting on my alloy head. My head with the most of the log cut off looks exactly like the posted pic.
I used pieces of 1 1/2 exhaust tubing -close to 1.4 ID. The pieces are cut from 90 deg bends with enough bend left to get about 11 degree runner. The curved end was worked rectangular on the curved end close to the port shape with about 2 in straight at the 11, deg. extending out. Used a filler-build material called "lab metal" to seat and seal the tube about 3/4 in. in the port, with a concave fillet on the outside for strength and looks. The log is 16 ga. sheet metal 3x6x2x6x20 in. The difference of one in. on the wall portion allows the bottom to follow the 11 deg incline of the runner and top to be level for the two barrel carb mounted between 3 and 4. The tubes 6 in long with flared ends enter at the bottom of the 3 in side and end 2 in from the 2 in side with 2 in sticking out the head side. 3 in sections of 1 1/2 radiator hose slips over the tubes and makes the connection. porting and valve mods-.060 milled all on 72 head.
Main point was to describe the lab-metal & radiator hose approach to this verses a machined-bolted-welded flange attachment approach. This leaves a bit of adjustment for fit.
The total runner length about 11 in with room for a bit of adjustment. Wonder how that comes out for RPM tuning on a 3rd wave??
Alloy head in route so this may take a back seat priority :?
Haven't done pics, soo words will have to do.
MYway

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #30 by autoX65 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:47 pm

very cool I have not had a chance to look into fillers for chemically bonding but sounds like you've found the right product for it. as for the 11 inch length that would be fourth induction wave creating the tunnel ram effect at 7200rpms so a little longer might be ideal but your plenum design ontop of it sounds sweet.

pictures please!

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #31 by autoX65 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:33 pm

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/autoX ... sort=3&o=0

check out the link above that is pretty much the flange and pipe ill be fabricating for the intake runners. everything looks to spec from my measurements so I'm still finishing the port and bowl work then will get serious mocking up the intake and I also have spare pipe and bends of course that needs to be cut and welded so I can mock up the collector under the plenum then carburetor base , then to the machine shop for valve job. and yes that's all high grade aluminum for the intake :nod:

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #32 by autoX65 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:20 pm

finished porting the exhaust very carefully as well as blended the intake and exhaust bowls and they are sooo much cleaner with the bosses blended as well as grinded out the excess meat for the thermactor emissions. I didn't want to get to carried away porting but I made the ports more rectangle taking away from the top and bottom of runners and minimal on the sides. then gave it a little downward lip which I know is real successful on 302 Australian Cleveland heads and gives it a much better exhaust sound. I took the whole exhaust from a 1" square to a 1.26" square and then gave it a little more of that lip I described where it will meet the header.

a pic of the exhaust ports and side view of the cut off log.
http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/autoX ... sort=3&o=0

still need to port the intake runners and polish all of it! I'm very pleased with the exhaust work since this is the first time porting it on over five of the log heads I've built over the years.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #33 by autoX65 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:38 pm

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/autoX ... sort=3&o=0

wouldntt that be cool six carburetors or the mini squirt would be awesome as mentioned its just a lot to take in but id say the large log custom flange with port on port in a 250ci would be sweet.

I posted one in the two you tube videos of the large log with six carbs. id love to see more links or video or any of these ford sixes running that have been modified like power band or if any one else has more links or pictures post them up.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #34 by autoX65 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:51 pm

I would love to do something like this but I had my I on my fuel system for quite some time so I've really built everything around the 2305 holley in design for best drivability and mileage so ill still be running off one venturI with this holley and just the one barrel is 250cfm with annular booster and its already calibrated for the inline six.

MustangSix wrote:I'm going to recommend a slightly more radical approach - Individual Runners. Motorcycle carbs are cheap and very tunable or you could go with the EFI throttle bodies as well. Microsquirt that thing for under $500.

Several years ago I tried an IR approach using Mikuni carbs on the Locost. While it ran well at speed I had difficulty getting it to settle into a good idle. Mostly I attribute that to my lousy approach to linking all six carbs together.

But my recent experience with my son's Zetec powered MGB has been really good. We used Keihins from a Kawasaki ZX9R. With no tuning at all it fired up and ran extremely well and was only just a little lean on top end. We richened up the main jet a little and it is a blast to drive. It pulls from idle to the 7500rpm redline with no hesitation or flat spots and holds idle smooth and solid. We had to use a regulator to keep the fuel pressure down to under 2psi.

Eventually we plan to switch the carbs for EFI Hayabusa throttle bodies. Cheap and easy to adapt - you just clamp them to an intake tube. The injector bungs are integral and the end carb holds the TPS sensor. The bodies separate by taking the threaded rods off. You can then add two more with the appropriate spacers and link them by just tacking on a straight flat tab to the linkage.

Carb or EFI, it is super easy to add these to the ex-log head by just brazing on some tubing for the intake. As far as length, don't overthink it. There are so many variables that go into tuning the total engine and intake tract length, volume, and cross section are only part of the equation. Point is, it won't really make a big difference if you made the runner 4 inches or 15 inches. Just do whatever is most easily packaged under the hood.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #35 by my way » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:43 am

The big problem is "FIT". It's 25 in between front spring housings. Might be able to notch out a half in. or so, but really need more room for ram tube type intake. Splitting it up into two plennums and carb's with #3 port curved, and a balance tube connection might be a possibility. Get's complicated!!
I do think individual straight runners weather FI or NA would be good for higher rpm. The ram effect or momentum of the port velocity AFTER bdc affect cyl fill .
Myway

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #36 by autoX65 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:05 pm

so I should be able to finish a good about of Machine work on the mill to clean up the surface, counterbore the runners and groove the tubes for o rings so I should have the flange part all set tomorrow then just will focus on shaping the runners this week. that's about my main concern now just to package and fit it all nicely and wish I could keep it below the hood but chances look slim of that so we should see some good progress this week.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #37 by Soldmy66 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:24 am

Any thought of having the intake runners cross over the the driver's side of the head?

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #38 by autoX65 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:44 pm

Soldmy66 wrote:Any thought of having the intake runners cross over the the driver's side of the head?



of course I think that crossing it to the drivers side would be the best way to get a long length runner packaged under the hood.

I didn't want to have any issues with not being able to get the valve cover off so I am putting the center of the carb base directly where the 1.5" carb hole was just only up higher so I can still easily take off the valve cover.

I've already got runner dimensions and bends made up and each runner has the minimal amount of bends I could get away with.

so unfortunatly no it will not cross over the engine but I did debate it.

I can't believe I am going from one 1.5" venturI to now six runners I've been able to port and bore out too 1.45" inch cross section on each runner and the log has a two 90 degree turns one at the carb base to the runner and another 90 from log to the individual runners inside plus in the log all of the runners are fighting each other for air. so I've got a lot more potential with the runners ported as well as less turns then the log and I plan to keep 1,2,4,6 equal length and 3,4 with the large combined exhaust port I went for shorter in hopes to keep equal A/F ratios across cylinders and well as took into account firing order for the best plenum effect.

ill upload pictures of progress as the week goes along but plan to have the flange with runners attached all bolted on this week as well as tubes formed so stay tunned and keep involved in the discussion.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #39 by autoX65 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:58 pm

here is one of the first rough sketches of the intake from a few years ago.

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/autoX ... sort=3&o=0

this is what I'm going for an have a much more elaborate diagram now with all my bend angles and lengths. but what did you think of the exhaust port job in the same photbucket album?

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #40 by autoX65 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:34 am

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=BfTqONGkJl8

check out this video I found.....not my build but very cool. two webber 32/36's on a cut off large log and each carb has its own plenum!

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #41 by Soldmy66 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:09 am

Can you please verify the link? I was able to find it on Youtube, but not directly via the link.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #42 by autoX65 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:35 pm

ford 200 3.3 straight six with dual weber 2 bbl

you'll have to type that in on YouTube

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #43 by autoX65 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:51 pm

good news people! successfully machined the 50 year old cast iron intake runners on the head so I've got all six aluminum runners pressed in now at least .5-.75" on the runners.

check out the pictures here: http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/autoX ... sort=3&o=1

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/autoX ... sort=3&o=1

so this weekend the runners and intake will start to take shape and hopefully finish the flange and if all goes well this could be a week or two out from running on a fresh 200 block.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #44 by xctasy » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:37 pm

autoX65 wrote:http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=BfTqONGkJl8

check out this video I found.....not my build but very cool. two webber 32/36's on a cut off large log and each carb has its own plenum!



Ron Wards started with a six bike carb I6 back in late 2011/early 2012.


MPGmustang wrote:I'm acturally intrested in what head this is. looks/sounds awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xXVd51tbSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWM5-xZ1q0M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-EVAnY7WKQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIeh3Bf_8sQ

More info about this build please!!!



Uploaded on Feb 13, 2012

A 1980 Ford 200 head with large log intake manifold was cut lengthwise along the intake manifold on a table saw using a Lenox Titanium steel cutting blade. Sheet metal port dividers were then fabricated and welded in place. The intake plate mounting surface was then planed flat by a machine shop. A 1/8" steel plate was then fabricated by cutting 42mm holes corresponding to a 2004 Kawasaki ZZR1200 carburetor spacings. Carburetor boot mounting studs were welded in place and planed flush with the mounting surface. The intake plate was then drilled and the head drilled and tapped for 14 - 4mm mounting bolts. A high heat gasket was then cut to fit between the head surface and the intake plate. Jets, both pilot and main, for the Keihen CVK40 carburetors were increased one size above stock. This resulted in a rich idle condition, but strong mid and high rpm. My next step will be to return the idle jets to the stock size.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyTHu3NkQIE


On the same cut-off log he made the "Ford 200 3.3 straight six with dual weber 2 bbl". It is quite tall, effectively a Powerband style tunnel ram.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfTqONGkJl8

ImageImage

ImageImage
ImageImage



He's had it in his 1969 T code 200 notchback car running

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaE8uw6O8S0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA9zHZxwZOE
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #45 by autoX65 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:55 pm

Helpppp! haha

okay did not get a chance to touch this project last week to many life shinanigans.

I'm stuck on fabrication basically have all my pipe in place which is much thicker wall then tubing and no one sells pre bends for this so I can cut and weld the pipe so here are the options. again I'm working with 6063 aluminum pipe 1.3" OD 1" inner diameter so after so Much searching found one company that will bend me that pipe in a U bend with 6" center line radious and I made a model of that with paper so I could diagram exactly how many of those I need at a easy 124$a pop I will need three of them which is expensive but I can cut and welding fabricate from that .

no one else can bend this pipe for me /:

next option is buy readily available tube 1.25" od with .065" wall thickness which is half of my .122" thickness pipe but it would butt up to it for a weld but may log a little funky with two different size pipes and tubes on all bends bit I can order those you bend cheap er(25 a U bend but they are tighter radious so would still need 6-8 so this option is half the cost of option A but should get me the same result just not Aaron pretty.

I can till you now this is goin to be a 2000 dollar modified log. easily 500 in aluminum supplies, 1000 for machine work and welding and about 400+ for valve train gear.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #46 by autoX65 » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:55 pm

still pressing forward with this build :bang: working very hard on my car as well burning the midnight oil everyday. got a lot of money tied into this head design so be patient i am still pressing to finish it the month but likely October will uviel this 65 mustang and can't wait to see her run before the 50 year anniversary from 1965. so there's not a whole lot else to say till its done except this is not the cheapest way to do it. I think its best to work with the log in all honesty but I will not let this thread die.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #47 by Econoline » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:06 pm

heck yes man, push on, I can't wait to see it
It ain't gonna fix itself

1964 Econoline 170 3.03 on the tree swapped to a 250 with an aod, custom front boosted disc brakes and 3.70 9" rear axle
1993 F-150 xl 4x4 4.9 5-speed, Mazda manual stock
1992 Jeep Cherokee 2-door 4.0, 5-speed manual
1989 Toyota Cressida 3.0, auto

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #48 by autoX65 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:19 pm

still a long ongoing build but have had lots of time to work the head. custom bent mardrel auluminum pipe for the intake runners and lots of custom cut then fabricated aluminum so the hours are tolling but as far as custom intakes go building for any engine its been a long process especially on a 50 year old mustang. theres a lot of money in machine work and parts not to mention the rebuild of the head and its not a easy task being that its all a one piece deal no bolt on.

anyone have success machining 1.80 intakes on the early small log head? biggest ive done was the 1.75 on the mid 70s large log. can it be done with hardened seats inserted? I believe even the 1.75" is tough to get done on the 200 small log right?

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #49 by turbo2256b » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:28 pm

Carbed i would do using CV motorcycle carbs. They dont need as long of a runner. Looked at spacing on a bank of some 750 bike carbs. Looked like remove one carb off say the third one of the 4. Number 2 on the other set looked like things were rather well lined up. Some models of these style carbs even have acclerator pumps.

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Re: lets talk tubular....custom intake on the falcon log hea

Post #50 by autoX65 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:53 pm

I understand that but im just going for volumetric effciencies and single carburetor for reliability and a lot less tunning.

been hard at work on this with 100s of hours of engineering into this head plus years of my real world engineering. its all hi-grade aluminum custom thick wall pipe, madarel bent, cnc'd and a well confined under my pro stock hood all custom one of a kind and cost well into $3500+ for material and cost me a lot in my machine work and fabrication well over 400 hours into it of work. im very excited just waiting on the new valve gear once classic inlines is back in operation and i hope it makes one solid pass that everyone can see weather she blows or not ill have the news crews present. not to mention the hours spent making my custom combustion chamber timing events for my engine's valve train.

it could be some of the newest and latest trends in intake dynamics, and air flow physics technologies. the twin venturi fuel system is basically going to be tuned as close as it gets to port on port electronic fuel injection while using vintage era technology so it should be a real threat to drive!

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