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'66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

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central_texan
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'66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #1 by central_texan » Wed May 05, 2010 4:59 pm

Hi Folks. I have two problems that will require some OLD expertise to solve. I've been trying to solve them for over 15 years and have struck out until now. I need help. I have a '66 Mustang Convertible with the 200 ci I6 and a C4 tranny that has been completely restored. The engine was totally overhauled during the restoration so all is well there.
First is an overheating problem. I have had the (4 row) radiator rodded out, installed a new water pump, a seven bladed fan, fabricated a radiator shroud, replaced all hoses, and still it overheats. It develops slowly but is ever present. It takes about 12-15 miles before it gets hot enough to cause concern. If I can keep the speed up to maintain good air flow over the radiator, I can keep it from overheating. No way would it tolerate any city traffic or air conditioning.
Second problem is a timing issue (which might be a contributing factor to my first problem). When I attempt to set the timing I disconnect the vacuum advance hose and set the timing to the recommended 12º BTDC. Then when I reconnect the vacuum hose the timing mark goes totally off the scale. I can't even see it with the hose connected and the engine speeds up about 1000 rpm. This just seems to be too much advance. I get a lot of pinging after the engine warms up as well as a significant reduction in power.

Anyone who could shed some light on what might be the problem with these two issues would be greatly appreciated.

66 Fastback
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #2 by 66 Fastback » Wed May 05, 2010 7:34 pm

It could well be a timing issue. Do you know if your carb and distributor are the factory units? Review the Small Six sticky topics located here:
viewtopic.php?t=15522
viewtopic.php?t=18841

Is your distributor a Load-a-Matic, and is it running in conjuction with a spark control valve (SCV) on the carburetor?

When the car was restored, was the harmonic balancer replaced? It is not uncommon for the balancer to deteriorate and the outer ring with the timing mark on it can slip. Then when you set the timing, it is actually not correct, because the reference mark has slipped.

I had overheating problems, lack of power etc until I got both of these issues resolved on my car.
By the way welcome to the forum. What part of Central Texas are you from? I grew up in Midland.
Doug

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JackFish
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #3 by JackFish » Wed May 05, 2010 8:10 pm

Perhaps the heater core is gunked up.
You could try to flush it out with CLR.
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
Yup, I bought another one.
1996 Chevy Caprice 9C1 (3)
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central_texan
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #4 by central_texan » Thu May 06, 2010 12:06 am

Thanks for the responses. First, no, I did not check out the harmonic balancer when the engine was overhauled. I've been secretly dreading that this might be the problem. I'll have to check that out. During restoration the heater core was replaced as it had a leak in it and had been bypassed when we got the car.
I have a spare engine and I think I will overhaul the distributor on the spare and try it on the car. I doubt that the distributor is anything special. Both engines are pretty much plain vanilla. It just seems that it is advancing way too much.
Does anyone have a foolproof way to check out the balancer? About the only way I know would be to rotate the engine until the #1 piston is at TDC and then check if the timing mark is at that point on the timing scale. I used to stick a screwdriver in the #1 spark plug hole and rotate the engine until it is at the highest point in the stroke. If anyone knows a better way, please let me know. Again, thanks for the responses.
BTW, I am in Fredericksburg. Right under the X in TEXAS!

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Frankenstang
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #5 by Frankenstang » Thu May 06, 2010 12:59 am

I agree verifying TDC is warranted given the nature of the balancer to slip. The screw driver method is a good aproach just keep in mind the piston rises twice...once for compression stroke and once for exhaust.. I like pulling the plug on #1 and using your thumb to feel the compression stroke...should feel air pressure with your thumb over the hole when both valves are closed and the piston is rising on compression stroke...top of that is TDC.

Also would be good to know a little more about your setup (pics a big plus). Stock '66 200 should have a Load-o-matic dizzy as Doug mentioned and an SCV carb, usually the 1100 (a matched set where one does not generally run right withouth the other). IIRC at normal curb idle of around 700ish the SCV should not be delivering any noticeable vacuum signal to the dizzy...so the idle timing jumping up and off the scale when you connect the hose sounds like somethings definitely off. There are two breaker/point plate return springs in the reg load-o (could be broken or missing) and I believe there are two diff vacuum canisters for the load-o (CA and non-CA cars) so you want to make sure you got the right one.

Also good to consider aftermarket temp gauge, as the stockers are not reliable. What signs of overheating do you have, (fluid loss, boil over)...are you sure it's reall overheating?

One thing I read about recently (up here I think) was that it was not uncommon to find on older repaired radiators that the little metal fins in between the tubes become unattached in places and fail to dissapate heat as well as when they were new...but don't know that this is a good enough argument for a brand new radiator...as even a poor performing 4-row should be way overkill on a 200 w/o a/c. But you definitely have a timing issue from the sounds of it.

central_texan wrote:I am in Fredericksburg


8) Hill country/texas wine country...lots of good sites to see around there, Enchanted Rock, Hamilton Pool, LBJ state park, Perdnales, etc...I've camped and hiked around there a bit. Good luck and welcome aboard!
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
All in one car! Johnny Cash would be proud...I got it One Piece at a Time

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Eric Rose
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #6 by Eric Rose » Thu May 06, 2010 11:40 am

Flushing the heater core helped big time on my car, I was amazed at all the junk that came out of it. Also, routing the heater hoses away from the exhaust helped a good bit. Probably the biggest thing that helped was going to an E-bay aluminum radiator, but that was mainly because my original radiator was clogged up.

The benefit of the 4 core radiators over the 2 core radiators is debatable as the air flows at a higher rate through a 2 core than a 4 core. Some people swear by the 2 core radiators. There's also a debate on fans, as its not the number of blades on the fan, but the total CFM that matters. The stock 4 blade fans make a respectable amount for CFM through the radiator, but they cost more HP than some of the multi-blade fans moving the same amount of air. It really depends on what your multi-blade fan is rated for, some of them move less air than the stock fan. :thumbup:
I got 350 heads on a 305 engine. I get 10 miles to the gallon, I ain't got no good intentions.
- Mike Cooley, aka the Stroker Ace.

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #7 by 66 Fastback » Thu May 06, 2010 1:36 pm

In addition to what you and Robert said, I like to pop off the distributor cap and verify that the rotor is pointing at / near the #1 distributor post of the cap. If the piston / screwdriver is at the highest point, the balancer timing mark is at TDC and the rotor pointing to the #1 post, then the balancer is probably OK.

I had a Weber carb and an incompatability problem with the Load-a-matic distributor. The Load-a-matic is calibrated to run on a combination of manifold and venturi vacuum. It will not function as designed without a working SCV on the factory carburetor. I also had a leaking vacuum advance diaphram, so I opted to go with the '68 and later distributor that has centrifugal advance.

I proposed to my wife at the Community Church in Fredericksburg. We go down there every couple of years. I have an affinity for the Fredericksburg area and Beer. In the dozen times that I have been there, I have never toured the Nimitz museum. Lately it seems every time I go there, half of the museum is closed because they are remodeling or expanding.
Doug

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #8 by 66 Fastback » Thu May 06, 2010 1:46 pm

Afterthought:
As a test, you could disconnect and plug the vacuum line and set the timing up at 18 to 20 deg, and the engine should run fine. You might see if the overheating problem decreases. These engines like and tolerate a bit more advance than the 12 deg factory spec.

As Robert pointed out, the stock temp guage is not a precision instrument and is only capable of indicating a trend. "H" may not actually mean there is a problem. Are you overheating / spewing coolant? Over the years, if someone has replaced the temperature sending unit / transducer, then it likely is not reading correctly. When I restored my car, I bought a new temp transducer and my gauge did not read correctly. I found an old one and put it back on and corrected the gauge back into a normal range.
Doug

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fordconvert
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #9 by fordconvert » Thu May 06, 2010 11:52 pm

Im thinking he needs to figure out if its a load o. Seems like that had its own timing procedure but I dont have a book handy at the moment. Then have to determine if he has the right carb. Timing going off the scale seems more like a standard dizzy hooked to manifold vac which works for many people. A load O on manifold vac would be bad. 12 seems a bit high for a stock motor and aftermarket vacuum cans often have too much advance. You may also have spring or weight issues.
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

central_texan
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #10 by central_texan » Fri May 07, 2010 12:45 am

Thanks again Guys for the responses. They contain a lot of good info. Let me address some of them.
1. I checked the car today and it DOES have a load-o-matic distributor and the carburetor DOES have the SCV. The vacuum hose to the distributor comes from the vacuum port adjacent to that valve. In fact, I will attempt to include a picture of the carburetor from the passenger side. If it doesn't work, I'll try again tomorrow.
2. The harmonic balancer is correct. I realized, after I removed the #1 spark plug that, with a flashlight, I could actually see the piston rising in the cylinder. So, that worry is a non-issue. In addition, someone suggested that I insure that the piston is on the compression stroke when I check for TDC. NOT NECESSARY! Whether the piston is on the compression stroke OR the exhaust stroke, the piston AND the timing mark will be at TDC and the timing mark will line up on either stroke.
3. According the shop manual, the part number of the distributor is not exactly right but should be close enough. The distributor is listed for a standard transmission and this car has a C4 in it. However, this car was originally a standard and the previous owner converted it. If this creates a complication, please, someone let me know.

I think that the bottom line here is that I am getting way too much advance at idle. The manual states that there should be little or no advance at idle and should increase as the engine speed increases with a maximum advance of 15 ½º. I’m getting all of that 15 ½º when I install the vacuum hose initially. Then as I rev the engine I get even more advance. Way too much! ! !

If the SCV goes bad, what happens? I need to figure out some way to get the vacuum advance back somewhere near to what the manual says it should be. It doesn’t have to be perfect, just serviceable.

I have avoided adding any aftermarket gauges because it detracts from the vintage appearance of the stang. I suppose that I could install a temporarily temp gauge to determine if the factory gauge is anywhere near accurate. I have actually experienced boil over after watching the gauge slowly advance to the hot point.

If you know where Enchanted Rock is, you probably know where Willow City is. I live about 2 miles south of Willow City. We live on a ranch that has been in my wife’s family for about 6 generations. BTW the Nimitz is now (for the time being) complete and is pretty neat. They have added the Bush Gallery since GHWB was a naval aviator in WWII and they have some neat displays there too.
Again, thanks in advance for any further help being offered.

Picture was too big. I'll dial back the camera and try again tomorrow night. Thanks again.

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Mercury Mike
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #11 by Mercury Mike » Fri May 07, 2010 1:36 am

I think everyone's pointing you on the right track.

SCVs don't really go bad in my opinion.

The reason they were telling you to make sure it's on the compression stroke is because that's the stroke that it needs to fire on to be in time.

My next question is... where is the vacuum line from the distributor going? Into the carb, or the manifold?
1967 Mercury Monterey "unnamed to date" 390/V8/C6
1965 Mustang Coupe "Sally" 200/6/C4 (Sold)
1962 Falcon Ranchero "Veronika" 170/6/C4 (Lost)
1965 Mustang Coupe "Betty" 200/6/C4
1956 F-100 Big Window "Henry" 272/V8/3ontheTreeOD
1968 Chevy Winnebago 350/th350
1966 Dodge Coronet Magnum 440 V8/Auto 3 Spd (Sold)
1970 Dodge SuperBee 383 V8 (Sold)

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Frankenstang
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #12 by Frankenstang » Fri May 07, 2010 2:39 am

central_texan wrote:someone suggested that I insure that the piston is on the compression stroke when I check for TDC. NOT NECESSARY! Whether the piston is on the compression stroke OR the exhaust stroke, the piston AND the timing mark will be at TDC and the timing mark will line up on either stroke.


This actually is pretty important as Doug and Mike reference. You need to be at TDC on the compression stroke "with the rotor pointing at #1 cylinder". Crank goes around twice to complete all '4 cycles' on each cylinder. If the rotor is pointing at #1, and piston (and mark) are at TDC, but you're on the 'exhaust' stroke...then you're 180* out.
Good luck!
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
All in one car! Johnny Cash would be proud...I got it One Piece at a Time

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #13 by fordconvert » Fri May 07, 2010 9:51 am

His engine is running and at the moment he has no reason to remove the dizzy so he is not 180* out so at this point it does not matter exhaust or compression stroke. Looking down or sticking something down the spark plug hole does not tell you if the timing mark is exactly correct. Most cases that will only put you + or - 10 degrees. IF you really want to know the only way is a piston stop. You set the stop so it hits BEFORE TDC then make a mark. You then roll the engine back the other direction till it hits the stop again and make another mark. Now split the distance between the two marks you just make and this will be the exact TDC 0* mark. I personally dont really care what the mark says. Every engine could have its own happy place so just because someone elses runs good a 12 does not mean mine will. I also dont know if the other guys 12 is correct. Use the vacuum method to get a base setting and see how it runs. If its fine you can try a bit more. If it detonates a bit less. If you have to crank it way back to prevent detonation and it kills the performance you have some other issue that needs to be fixed. This is for a standard dizzy. See what the book says for setting the Load O. Seems like it had a unique procedure.

He said the vacuum connection for the Load o is a port next to the SCV. I was thinking that there should be no signal there at idle. Seems to me that they look a lot like a holley power valve. I wonder if someone put a power valve on there? I also remember some sort of shim or gasket sort of thing? Maybe thats not correct so its not seating properly so it can do its thing? Maybe base idle is too high so its off the idle circuit and letting the scv kick in?
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

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Frankenstang
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #14 by Frankenstang » Fri May 07, 2010 10:45 am

fordconvert wrote:His engine is running and at the moment he has no reason to remove the dizzy so he is not 180* out


TJ, at the moment I agree with you. No need to pull the dizzy and not sufficient reason to believe he's 180" out. I was only trying to clarify that TDC on compression or on exhaust does matter relative to where the rotor is pointing. AFAIK you're also correct that at a curb idle of ~700ish the scv should be sending no vacuum signal to the dizzy, and it sounds like he's got it mounted to the correct port on the carb.

However, not that long ago another member here was dealing with a worn out load-o that kept breaking return springs. He had similar issues with timing dancing way off the scale and overheating. If the dizzy is shot/worn out and has to be replaced then I think it is important to understand how to verify TDC...but that's me. I still mostly set my timing by ear, but I also use both the vacuum and timing light procedure to know approx where the engine is set and how it is working. No intense offended. :mrgreen:

Note: SCV's do occasionally fail, but to my knoledge it's usually in the stuck open position...spring on back extended and won't contract. IIRC SCV sits in normally closed position (due to manifold vac) and when that vac temporarily drops under acceleration the spring on the SCV is calibrated to open/release and allow dizzy to see some venturi vacuum to assist in advancing.
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
All in one car! Johnny Cash would be proud...I got it One Piece at a Time

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #15 by central_texan » Fri May 07, 2010 1:44 pm

Hello Folks, me again. I did a bit more investigating this AM. I removed the carb, made sure that all vacuum portals going to and coming from the SCV are open. As far as I could tell, they are open. I also thought that maybe someone had installed a power valve rather than an SCV but not so. I actually have a spare carburetor and I compared the SCV on the carb on the car and it is the same as the one on the spare carb. The cleaning had no effect. I still got about 16º when I hook up the vacuum line to the distributor.
I took 66 fastback's advice and timed the car at about 18º BTDC and plugged the vacuum line to the distributor and tried it out. The car DID run cooler. The temp gauge hovered between a quarter and a third up the scale on a route that ran about a half to three quarters up just a couple of days ago. It's even a little warmer today than then. My guess is that a quarter to a third is probably about where it should run, day in and day out. This leads me to believe that my problem lies with the timing/carb.
I also agree that, at idle, there should be little or no vacuum signal. So, where is that monstrous signal coming from?
I don't have a tachometer, but when I disconnect the vacuum line, it seems to be idling around 500-700 rpm. When I connect the vacuum line it increases to about 1,200 to 1,500 rpm. I'm almost afraid to idle it down with the hose attached. It might be too slow at idle.
Any other suggestions are appreciated. I think you guys have helped me zero in on the problem. Now we just need to fix it! :( Thanks!

Sorry about the pictures. I can't dumb my camera down enough to get a picture smaller than 14 KB. I'd be glad to send pics to an e-mail address if you'd like to see some. My address is creaves@ctesc.net.

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #16 by dagenham » Fri May 07, 2010 9:37 pm

Are you setting the idle and checking the timing with the car in gear or in park??
I am wondering if the automatic trans is causing your vacuum problem. Where is the vacuum line to the modulator hooked up to on the engine?? It should be plugged into the intake somewhere, but not under the base of the carb.

Afterthought:
How does the trans shift?? Hard or soft or just right??

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #17 by central_texan » Sat May 08, 2010 12:23 am

Transmission shifts pretty smooth. No complaints there. The transmission vacuum hardline comes from the intake about two inches ahead of the center line of the carb. There is a larger vacuum line that comes off the heated spacer between the carb and the intake manifold, but it is for the PCV on the top of the valve cover.
I'm setting idle in Neutral. I heard that the transmission pump does not run in Park. Never verified that fact but any long term idling is done in Neutral just in case.
The SCV appears to be closed. If you pull on the stem (which would be on the inside of the carb) it is spring loaded and upon release, springs back toward the valve body.
If anyone can think of any other possible trouble points, I'd be more than happy to check out any setting or part. I really appreciate all of the good input I've received on this forum.

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #18 by Mercury Mike » Sat May 08, 2010 1:58 am

I'm still turnin' gears in my head. I'll nail it, just give me a couple of days haha.
1967 Mercury Monterey "unnamed to date" 390/V8/C6

1965 Mustang Coupe "Sally" 200/6/C4 (Sold)

1962 Falcon Ranchero "Veronika" 170/6/C4 (Lost)

1965 Mustang Coupe "Betty" 200/6/C4

1956 F-100 Big Window "Henry" 272/V8/3ontheTreeOD

1968 Chevy Winnebago 350/th350

1966 Dodge Coronet Magnum 440 V8/Auto 3 Spd (Sold)

1970 Dodge SuperBee 383 V8 (Sold)

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #19 by central_texan » Sat May 08, 2010 3:39 pm

You Guys may disown me over this, but what if I just abandon the Load-o and 1100 and change carbs altogether? What would be my options? I've seen conversion discussions that appear to be comparable to PonyCarbs prices and I would get a more modern carb and better performance and economy to boot. I'm not sure that I would be agreeable to a head swap, but an adapter and a 2v carb might be a good option.
What parts would have to be changed out (my guess is carb and distributor) and are these parts readily available?
If any of you have gone this route, please give me some feedback. Good idea or Stay Away? ? ?

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #20 by Mercury Mike » Sat May 08, 2010 3:52 pm

If you do go to a 2 bbl, upgrade to a duraspark II setup.
1967 Mercury Monterey "unnamed to date" 390/V8/C6

1965 Mustang Coupe "Sally" 200/6/C4 (Sold)

1962 Falcon Ranchero "Veronika" 170/6/C4 (Lost)

1965 Mustang Coupe "Betty" 200/6/C4

1956 F-100 Big Window "Henry" 272/V8/3ontheTreeOD

1968 Chevy Winnebago 350/th350

1966 Dodge Coronet Magnum 440 V8/Auto 3 Spd (Sold)

1970 Dodge SuperBee 383 V8 (Sold)

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #21 by fordconvert » Sat May 08, 2010 5:00 pm

I would start with just changing out the dizzy. My 66 had a load o when I got it, bushings were worn and it seemed to stick at times. Its now got a DS2 with the original 1100. Im running off manifold vac and other than the idle not being as smooth as I would like am very happy with the performance. EFI is on my to do list but its been running so well I have been working on other projects for the last 2 years.
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #22 by central_texan » Sat May 08, 2010 11:57 pm

Fordconvert and Mercury Mike, you have my attention! ! ! !
What would be involved? it appears that I would need to get the proper distributor (one post I found said a 78 Fairmont would be a direct fit), a control module (Would the original 78 Fairmont do or go aftermarket?), and an HEI coil? ? ? This may be the way to go for the time being. Just keep the 1100 (since it seems to be working okay other than the advance problem) and maybe upgrade to a newer 2v at some time in the future. It appears that the 2v upgrade will be much more complicated and costly than just the distributor change.
Fordconvert, give me the lowdown on the EFI you've been considering.

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #23 by fordconvert » Sun May 09, 2010 10:31 am

Here is the EFI thread that is more or less my plan for someday. I have some of the parts on the shelf just no motivation.
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=38349

Going to a DS2 will be a all around good thing and required if you ever do a 2v upgrade. If you are going to a parts store 78 fairmont works because it was a fairly common car that commonly came with the 200 and 78 was right in the middle of the run so you should not have too many options. Usually the choice is dingle or dual advance. Ask for single but if all they got is the dual I guess it works also, you just leave the second port open. You can use the module for the fairmont also. Or like some of us have done used the HEI module. Plenty of reading on that around here so you can make your own choice. Same with coils. You can use pretty much what ever you want. I have a MSD blaster with my DS2 and HEI. Its been running fine for a couple of years (6k miles) now. I have my golf carts running with TFI coils and HEI modules, so far so good. Never used a Ford module so dont know what coils they like so you will have to read up on that. Some people also go with the DS1 cap which looks like the points cap. Again this is covered in several topics here also, I think many call it the 74 Mav cap. I chose the standard DS2 cap because its in stock at most stores where the Ds1/Mav one was only used 1 year or so so its usually a special order. I dont like special order on parts that wear out.
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

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fordconvert
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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #24 by fordconvert » Sun May 09, 2010 10:59 am

Oh ya when you do get to changing the dizzy.....

Disconnect battery. If auto trans leave it in park. If manual set parking brake and or chock wheels and put in N (you dont want to lean on the car and have the engine move).

Remove dist cap and see where rotor is pointing. Put cap back on ad see which terminal / wire the rotor is pointing to. Draw or take a picture if you need to. Lets say the rotor was pointing to the dipstick and that is just a little to CCW to #4.

Unhook your wires and stuff. Remove the distributor hold down bolt and clamp. Lift up on the dizzy, note as you lift the rotor is going to turn a bit. Watch for where it stops turning as you lift and note that position for later.

Get your new dizzy. Put the rotor on. Drop it in a bit with the vacuum can pointing where it wont bang into anything. Rotate the rotor to the position that the old one stopped turning and drop it in further. You may have to wiggle the rotor slightly side to side to get it to start to drop into the gear. Once you get into the gear it should not turn much. If you are lucky the thing will then drop the rest of the way in and the rotor will end up pointing right where it was on the old one which in this example case we said was the dipstick tube. If it does not drop that last bit its because its not aligned with the oil pump. Some people choose to bump the starter and hope it drops in. I choose to remove the distributor again and use a socket on an extension to turn the oil pump shaft slightly then try again. Sometimes this takes a few shots to get it aligned so it drops all the way down.

Now you put your cap on and we said from before that #4 was the one where the rotor was so we rotate the dizzy body so the rotor is just ccw to the terminal we are now calling #4. Now you put your wires on in the proper sequence making sure that #4 is the one where the rotor is.

It should be close enough to start. Just rotate it to a position where it runs fairly smooth and let it warm up then you can get out your timing light and or vac gauge and get er set.

If the engine does get moved while you have the dizzy out or you forget where the rotor was pointed you then have to do the whole TDC thing on the #1 cylinder and know the difference between compression and exhaust stroke. As long as you dont move the engine and you take note of where things were then you dont have to worry about all of that.
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #25 by central_texan » Sun May 09, 2010 11:06 pm

Thanks Fordconvert for the instructions. I'm not worried at all about removing and replacing the distributor. I am a bit apprehensive about how to hook up the electronics, though. From what I can get out of the posts I have found, it doesn't seem to matter too much which ignition box to use, MSD 6A, GM, or OEM Ford. I have not found a good clear explanation of how all of these go together in relation to my old points ignition. I doubt that the DS2 will plug up directly the the GM.
I think I am experiencing a disconnect because I am doing two upgrades rather than one. I find explanations of how to upgrade a points car to DS2 or how to upgrade a DS2 to GM or MSD, but not how to do both at the same time. I'm sure that when I get the parts, I can stumble around and get there, but I hate to start something without understanding EVERYTHING I will need to do to complete the conversion.
What components do you recommend? I'd like to maintain the stock appearance if possible. I think I am leaning towards finding a salvage yard DS2 and buying a MDS 6A and Blaster coil on eBay. Is there a harness I need to hook all of these together?

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #26 by 66 Fastback » Sun May 09, 2010 11:37 pm

The distributor's vacuum advance is often adjustable. Some of these older models have a nut and shim washers. Other vacuum models can be adjusted by adjusting a hex key in the hose nipple.

I took a look at the shop manual for the Load-a-matic, and depending on the model, it has a maximum advance of 12.5 to 15.5 deg. You mentioned the 15.5 deg in a prior post. But you have to keep in mind that when the shop manuals give specifications for distributors, they are in distributor degrees and rpms, not crankshaft degrees. You have to double everything to get the crankshaft specs. So a 15.5 deg maximum advance is really a 31 deg maximum vacuum advance. Coupled with the 12 deg of initial advance, it is possible to get up to 43 deg of spark advance. When the engine is rev’d up in the driveway, the vacuum advance does not mimic actual operations while out on the road. The timing will go way off scale because there is no load and engine vacuum does not drop. The manual mentions that there are 2 springs, one controls high vacuum and one controls low vacuum. Maybe there is a chance that one of your springs is broken or way out of adjustment. It also states that the posts can be adjusted.

After rambling on all that, unless a spring is missing, it still does not address the fact that your vac advance is kicking in at idle.
It could be that you need to go back and adjust the carburetor and make sure that the throttle plates can fully close when the curb idle screw is backed out all of the way. I am thinking what could be happening is that the throttle plates are open too far at idle and enough vacuum signal is reaching the vac port controlling the distributor. When the spark is advanced, the engine idle will increase in speed. Maybe something on the choke linkage is stuck or not adjusted properly such that the idle screw is contacting the fast idle cam and not coming off of it. Heck after reading the manual, there are some points that I have not always followed. Idle speed is set initially with the transmission in drive. For final adjustment after it has warmed up, the idle speed should be set with the transmission in Drive. But if it has air conditioning, the AC should also be running and the headlights should be on. I know when I have adjusted the idle speed with the AC on, the idle speed seems very high if my AC is not on. I will sometimes back it down.

With regards to swapping the carb and distributor, many of us opted to do that. At one time I was convinced that my 1 bbl carb did not work well, so I bought the Weber. Looking back, it may have been that my balancer had slipped. I can’t seem to remember the dates. Anyway, I bought a Clifford 2 bbl adaptor and fabbed up some simple throttle linkage. The little square weber air cleaner poses no hood clearance problems. I later adapted an air cleaner base plate to the weber so that I could run a larger round air filter.
I also swapped out to a later distributor since my carb was no longer compatible with the load-a-matic. Besides I understand the conventional distributor better. I am no DSII expert, but you can find some lengthy posts on it on this board. I think these two posts may be helpful. One is in the Small Six Tech articles and one is off of Mike’s website.
viewtopic.php?t=53797
http://classicinlines.com/DSIIswap2.asp

This is an interesting problem you are experiencing I hope you can get it sorted out.
Doug

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #27 by central_texan » Mon May 10, 2010 11:26 am

Again, VERY good info, '66 Fastback. I think I have just about talked myself into doing the DS2 conversion and changing my vacuum signal point to the manifold rather that the SCV port on my 1100.
I have found all the parts for the conversion but I am having a real problem finding the wiring harness that connects everything together. None of the salvage yards around here have anything older than about a 1980 vehicle on their yards.
If you or anyone else on the forum knows of anyone that might have a harness, I'd appreciate a reference so I could get hold of one.
Thanks again!

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #28 by fordconvert » Mon May 10, 2010 2:36 pm

You can use regular crimp ends to connect to the DS and GM stuff so you dont have to alter the factory connectors if you dont want to. The really tricky one was the coil that ford used on those, it has a T sort of a peg instead of the screw terminals that most have. Simple fix for that is just dont get the OE style ford one. I dont think anyone except maybe CI/mike has a complete harness but last time I looked Napa had pigtails listed for both ends of the module.
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #29 by central_texan » Tue May 11, 2010 5:47 pm

A quick couple of questions about wiring the DS2.
From studying the schematic of the hookup, it appears that the only new wire that MUST be run is the red from the module to the 'R' terminal on the ignition switch. QUESTION #1-Do I have to go to the switch to make this connection or can I connect to any wire with a full 12 volts when ignition switch is ON? ? ?

Question #2-The schematics I have found show that the ONLY wire going to the '-' side of the coil is the green from the module. That is shown to be a tach driver. Is that right? ? Does the coil get it's ground from it's mounting bracket to generate the high voltage? On the points wiring, the '-' wire goes to the distrbutor and the '+' is from the ignition switch (this wire stays in place on the conversion). Then if I do not have a tach, the '-' post on the coil has NO wire running to it?

I DO plan to run the white from the module to the S terminal of the starter relay. Otherwise, the wiring appears to be straightforward.

Thanks, everyone for your guidance during this endeavor! All of my parts should be here by Friday so on Sat I MAY be posting a lot again.

Thanks again!

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #30 by BIGREDRASA » Wed May 12, 2010 8:07 pm

One item you haven't mentioned, concerning overheating, is routing of your heater hoses. I dropped considerably by routing the hoses to the driver's side, away form the headers. Image
Image
TonyS, Ret USAF Mustang. RIP Charlie, 1966 Mustang Convertible, soon to be desecrated with a Bent 8. (I suspect.)
"Lead, follow, or get out of the way." http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081004032319AAWUT56

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #31 by yellow_66 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:27 pm

Ok ive got a Timing question.

I have a freshly rebuilt 200cid
Adjustable rockerarms
Petronix Ignition and Flame Thrower Coil
Weber Carb DGV 36/38 with fuel pressure regulator.

Where should I try and set my timing / plug gap ? :thanks:

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #32 by BIGREDRASA » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:06 pm

Start with plugs at .050" and 12* BTDC with vacuum plugged.
Image
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"Lead, follow, or get out of the way." http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081004032319AAWUT56

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #33 by MPGmustang » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:19 pm

what kind of distributor do u have?

if you have the laod-o-matic and that carb, you'll never reach peak performance. Upgrade the dizzy to a DSI or DSII or DUI and then continue. IIRC on my old stock engine with the LOM, I was never able to run 12* advance, it liked it best @ 9* and then would still ping when it got hot. I used to have the same setup, pertronix/flame/lom/1100v and plug gaps worked best (no missing) @ .042 as .045+ would miss sometimes on Idle and create an annoying shutter.
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #34 by Explorer » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:58 pm

central_texan wrote:Again, VERY good info, '66 Fastback. I think I have just about talked myself into doing the DS2 conversion and changing my vacuum signal point to the manifold rather that the SCV port on my 1100.
I have found all the parts for the conversion but I am having a real problem finding the wiring harness that connects everything together. None of the salvage yards around here have anything older than about a 1980 vehicle on their yards.
If you or anyone else on the forum knows of anyone that might have a harness, I'd appreciate a reference so I could get hold of one.
Thanks again!

NAPA sells the plugs you need for the harness: ECH EC72-3 and ECH EC127-4
66 Bronco half cab, 203 ci, 9.7:1 comp, CI aluminum head and intake, DSII ignition, Clifford header, Keith Black pistons, Isky 256/256 cam, lifters, chrome moly rings, push rods, Holley 390cfm 4v, 4:11 gears, 3-speed, 30/9.50/15's 18.28mpg pushing a 4000lb brick.
66 Mustang Coupe, 200I6 automatic

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #35 by yellow_66 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:57 pm

BIGREDRASA wrote:Start with plugs at .050" and 12* BTDC with vacuum plugged.



Thanks for the advice, I've been busy with the holidays and preparing my house for family. I will check my plug gap and adj timing to see how it runs.

MPGmustang wrote:what kind of distributor do u have?

if you have the laod-o-matic and that carb, you'll never reach peak performance. Upgrade the dizzy to a DSI or DSII or DUI and then continue. IIRC on my old stock engine with the LOM, I was never able to run 12* advance, it liked it best @ 9* and then would still ping when it got hot. I used to have the same setup, pertronix/flame/lom/1100v and plug gaps worked best (no missing) @ .042 as .045+ would miss sometimes on Idle and create an annoying shutter.


It is a Load o matic and I am not ready to jump into a DSI or II just yet I dont drive the car very often since the only interior it has is a driver seat and dash pad. Its a work in progress but I need it to run a little more consistently. Thanks again guys.

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #36 by BIGREDRASA » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:29 pm

Install the Pertronix I or II with a Flamethrower Coil. Easy to do, and instant improvement. However, you can get a DS II for about the same price, and setup is not really that difficult. (Check out the various threads.) You will just need to connect the dizzy to the manifold vacuum, and plug the vacuum port on the carb.

Go electronic either way, and forget about setting points forever.
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"Lead, follow, or get out of the way." http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081004032319AAWUT56

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Re: '66 200 I6 Gearhead Expert advice needed

Post #37 by bubba22349 » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:25 pm

If your using the LOD distrib set the plugs to .034, make sure to set the points too so you have the right dwel :nod:
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I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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