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Carb Choling!

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Inlinefanatic1968
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Carb Choling!

Post #1 by Inlinefanatic1968 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:13 am

I am having a carb problem. When i start the car, from it being cold, it is running alright still a little rough but fine. Then driving down the road, as I increase the throttle, the engine sounds like it is choking short of gas or air i don't know. Beginning to decrease RPM's, rough and no longer to accelerate. What could this be? I have a Autolite 1100.

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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #2 by CZLN6 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:38 am

Howdy:

How does it run once it is warmed up? Is this a change? Over time? has it come on all at once? or graduall over time? Is it more noticeable since the weather has turned colder?

My first guess is that the accelerator pump system is not up to par. My second guess is that the choke is not properly adjusted? Likely both. You could try richening the choke setting. That's fairly easy and cheap. Also add a few more degrees of initial advance. Be sure to check for vacuum leaks too.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Adios, David
co-author of the Falcon Performance Handbook
http://www.falcon6handbook.com/

Inlinefanatic1968
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #3 by Inlinefanatic1968 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:19 pm

Runs smooth when it is warmed up it seems then going down the road, faster than 15mph, it starts doing it. It is on a new carburetor and we had a change of temperatures and it did it when warmer and colder. It is one of those new Vaporizer 1100's from pony carbs. A week old.

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Frankenstang
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #4 by Frankenstang » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:06 pm

Inlinefanatic1968 wrote:It is one of those new Vaporizer 1100's from pony carbs. A week old.


Given this, and assuming the ignition system is functioning correctly (ie properly working module/points system, working advance, good wires, cap, rotor, timing set correctly)...IIWIYS I'd box it up and send it back. Probably not what you want to hear, but given Pony has a one year warranty, I would not crack it open within that period.

I had a problem with my vaporizer not long after installing it. Hard starts, poor or no idle and lots of black smoke. Could tell it was super rich/flooding. I emailed and called and eventually got Jon on the phone, told him the situation and he recommended returning it. Said if he found crud in the fuel bowl it would be a minor charge for cleaning. I sent it back with a note in the box w/details of issue I was experiencing, and they repaired it & got it back to me in a couple weeks IIRC (no charge). Eventually spoke with Jon on the phone again, because I was not sure what caused the flooding issue. Turns out they had some trouble with the early V1100's floats.

As I mentioned this may not be the answer you want to hear as often once you've got a carb ready to install, you're probably ready to drive :?: However, I'd exercise patience and discretion in this case and send it back under warranty, if you are sure it's the carb. Majority of the folks with the new vaporizer seem to experience good bench setting and tune (ie good running) right out of the box, but if you didn't then something is wrong and you've got warranty coverage. About the only other thing I would want to check...again IIWIYS...would be for a leak at the base gasket, or you could disconnect the fuel line feeding the carb and route it to a bucket to ensure it's getting fuel properly (should be a couple ounces at a time coming out of the hose in pulses synched with fuel pump eccentric). I'd also recommend having an inline clear filter (napa gold is good...like a fram G2) just before the standard autolite integral 1100 filter (the mesh/filter element in the standard integral filter is notoriously too porous to get the tiny debris).

Good luck!
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
All in one car! Johnny Cash would be proud...I got it One Piece at a Time

Inlinefanatic1968
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #5 by Inlinefanatic1968 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:35 pm

The ignition system is functioning properly and I was driving the car less than a mile from my house and the car expelled out the rear black smoke for a few seconds, ran very rough and died. I was lucky enough to get into a side street. It has new filters and the base gasket looks good and tight no leaks that I can see. The fuel pump is the same one as before and it ran just fine before we installed this carb. Which leads me to think it is the carb. Since having it fixed, do you have anymore problems? At all? How long have you been running it? Have you had to send it back again?

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Frankenstang
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #6 by Frankenstang » Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:48 pm

Inlinefanatic1968 wrote:Which leads me to think it is the carb. Since having it fixed, do you have anymore problems? At all? How long have you been running it? Have you had to send it back again?


Given your other info, I'd agree that the carb is the prime suspect. If you had another carb (even better another autolite 1100) you could bolt on then that might confirm it for sure.

Mine has been on the car and running since approx June of '09. Probelm occurred in approx Aug '09. Has been on the car and running ever since. No problems since Pony's repair (ie not sent back since), and has performed great ever since.

With the cost of the vaporizer in mind I would not hesitate to send it back. Again probably not what you want to hear, as I can't think of anyone wanting to be without their running car for any length of time, and no one would want the hassle of "having" to return a "brand new" $400+ carb for issues (and it certianly does not instill further confidence in Pony, but that's something they've unfortunately been battling off and on). However it seems that's what is called for in this case.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally had good service in resolving my issue (although I was still out the cost of one-way shipping to send it to them...they paid to ship it back to me).
Good luck, and hope this helps!
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
All in one car! Johnny Cash would be proud...I got it One Piece at a Time

Inlinefanatic1968
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #7 by Inlinefanatic1968 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:13 pm

This most certainly does. I is troubling that they would send out a product like this that had problems as soon as it arrived and got it on. Once you sent it to them, how long did it take for you to get it back from Pony Carbs? It took several weeks, (3 weeks) to get the carb in the first place. And i really hope it won't be another month without a running vehicle.

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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #8 by Inlinefanatic1968 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:15 pm

What did they need to do to the carb to fix it from the factory?

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Frankenstang
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #9 by Frankenstang » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:10 pm

Couple weeks to get it back (including ship time) as best as I can recall. Wouldn't think there would be as much lead time to turn it around for a repair/adjustment.

Best explanation I could get from Jon @ Pony was there was a problem on some float tabs causing the needle valve to hang up or bind...I don't know if they changed the float completely or adjusted the tab (something I probably could have done myself but was not willing to do given expense and reluctance to void warranty). I'm not sure (and not gonna say :wink: ) that you have the exact same problem as mine, but IIWIYS I'd call them tomorrow speak to Jon to describe the issue and 'tell' them you're sending it back to be fixed. They'll tell you about common problems with incorrect timing, crud in the fuel tank/lines and "old faithful"...yada, yada, yada and they'll ask about most the stuff mentioned above. Confirm you've done all that and then you can apprise them of the situation, and also get turnaround time, etc direct from the horse's mouth :wink:
Good luck!
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Inlinefanatic1968
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #10 by Inlinefanatic1968 » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:24 pm

i'll probably send it back because I dont want to void the warranty. I do think that I have the same problem as you did. But I'll give them a call. Thank you for all of the help and I'll keep you updated as to the progress! Thanks again!

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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #11 by Frankenstang » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:13 pm

Any luck talking to Pony/Jon or figuring it out? I had my timeline out of whack in the post above. I purchased one of the first ones (ordered in April of '08...received it end of July '08)...worked great initially (but wasn't being driven alot at the time). Then by December of that year ('08) I had the flooding/gushing of gas issue. Sent it back in mid Jan '09 (again, still took them a couple weeks to get it back to me...shipping time included). Has run fine ever since.

However just recently I've been able to get some more accurate mileage info documented with routine driving, and I've noticed (by smell as much as anything) that it's been unusually rich at idle (not dumping fuel and all out flooding like before). I've tweaked the idle mixture down to about 3/4 of a single rotation open and will probably adjust the choke to a slightly leaner choke setting (car still runs smooth at idle and throughout the range when it gets up to operating temperature). After a couple years of driving on the new carb it now looks like I'm going to go ahead and crack mine open soon to check/adjust the float level to shallowest setting possible, look for new crud in bowl (only thing on fuel system that is original is the body length of metal fuel line front to back), and might even consider switching to a smaller jet (think I've got a couple from some old carbs/kits to compare to and/or swap to).

I've pulled as good as 24mpg on a full tank of almost all highway driving, but have seen some plummeting numbers in town lately (14.5mpg of almost all metroplex driving on one tank). The city driving is too big a differential given my mostly stock setup and given what I know I'm smelling at the tailpipe (too much fuel). I do expect some signficant differential since I've gotten it running, driving and stopping so well (my right foot now seems to weigh about 5-10lbs more than my left. :P :lol:), but the current spread is still too big (to my guesstimation) even when I'm 'gettin' on it.

Curious to hear how your situation turns out.
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
All in one car! Johnny Cash would be proud...I got it One Piece at a Time

Inlinefanatic1968
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #12 by Inlinefanatic1968 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:38 am

I finally got in touch with the company and they told me to check out the vacuum advance. And even though I had set it using a vacuum gauge, it was still set at the wrong placement. I am still trying to tweak the carb to get the right settings. It is still running rich pretty much no matter what I do. But this weekend I am going to set down and finally take some real time and adjust the advance and the mixture to get it set right. Other than running rich, I have noticed there is a skipping of some kind at idle. I don't really notice it if at all at higher RPM's. I check the spark plugs, the distributor and wires are new, I don;t know what it could be.

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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #13 by Frankenstang » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:37 pm

Inlinefanatic1968 wrote:I finally got in touch with the company and they told me to check out the vacuum advance. And even though I had set it using a vacuum gauge, it was still set at the wrong placement.


Out of curiosity how far off was your timing? One thing I think Pony/Jon are known for doing is over emphasizing the "ideal" timing setting. Don't get me wrong, of course timing is very important, but in my experience there is a wide range of initial timing settings over which a 200 six can be made to run acceptably given a properly tuned ignition and fuel system (ie timing anywhere from 6*-14* should only require minor adjustments to the idle mixture and idle curb speed). I usually like to get the idle down near the ballpark of curb speed, 500-600rpms using a tach or engine analyzer with rpms indicator is helpful (by adjusting the curb speed screw at the rear base of carb on the throttle shaft). Once there I adjust the timing to desired level (often measured by vacuum gauge for highest Hg level or with a light if the condition of the balancer is not suspect). Then adjust idle mixture by screwing 'out' till engine stumbles then screwing "in" till engine stumbles then back out another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. Then adjust idle curb speed again as necessary for desired idle curb speed.

As Pony/Jon and others will mention a slipped balancer is a concern on these engines but can be eliminated by verifying TDC relative to the timing mark on the balancer. Once that's done, a curb idle timing of 8*-12* should not result in a stumble or 'skipping' as you describe. One thing Pony/Jon and others can be known for doing is distrusting the balancer mark straight off and resort to timing by ear (best idle w/o pinging/detonation under acceleration or by highest vacuum), when it's easy enough to determine if your timing mark is off (balancer slipped). I'm not saying either of those methods of setting initial timing is wrong and both are useful when used in combination with verified TDC and a light. I guess I'm just saying that any number of various initial timing settings can be made to perform acceptably, but will not resolve a fuel system/carb issue.

A flooding or overly lean condition will result in a stumble or 'skip' in the idle. This would be most easily recognized as being different from an ignition issue if the stumble or 'skipping' is not perfectly consistent/rhythmic and especially if it does not continue through the higher range (a perfectly consistent/rhythmic stumble or skip that continued throughout the rpm range and at idle could indicate an ignition issue...I don't think that's your problem).

Long story shorter. After you've verified TDC and dialed in the curb idle and idle mixture settings, check the plugs after some driving for black carbon stains/deposits and fuel soaking, if those symptoms are present. I would inform them you're sending it back. Don't ask them if you can...tell them that you are (I even told him he could just bill me if he found crud in the fuel bowl causing the issue..which I knew he would not find).

Sorry for such a long post, but obviously felt obliged to inject my two cents (and then some :roll: :lol: ). Overall I think Pony is a good company with good product(s) (such as the Vaporizer 1100), but it's not surprising to me that they're 'carb-o-centric' and tend to question anything and everything before they suspect their own product (it's instinctive). However I think if they were more 'customer service' minded they would not get some of the bad rep they do incur (mistakes can and do happen...they've made them before as with mine). Sure customers make mistakes as well and a new carb is not a panacea/one cure fixes all, but if you're selling carbs targeted at vintage rides, then I think you've got to be prepared to work with customers extensively with a significant focus on customer service (they could do better here).
Good luck and please keep me/us posted on what you find out.

PS I believe my issue as mentioned is a modestly rich condition that either has resulted from build up or wear on the needle valve after 2 years or a float not set where it once was (I hope they used a brass float in these carbs, because the nitrophyl type are known for not 'floating' as well over time)...point is I'll post some pics and info when I get a chance to crack it open...too much interior work to wrap up right now :wink:
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #14 by mustang6 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:36 pm

I haven't had a "Vaporizer" 1100 to open up, but I have opened a rebuilt/"recalibrated" OEM 1100 done by Pony Carbs. They talk quite a bit in their advertising about the recalibration they have done to overcome the OEM issues of surging and rough running, in my experience what they basically did was install a larger main jet (possibly also internally opening up the idle feed, I haven't had a way to check that). Since surging can be caused by lean mixtures, this could certainly help but in some cars but could also result in a rich condition in many situations. I have also found them to be surprisingly non-inquisitive on the SCV/non-SCV and distributor matching issue, which is key to a good running engine.
Scott

68 Mustang 200 ci, Aussie 250-2V head, Dual Headers, Comp Cams 252H, DSII w/MSD 6AL, T-5, V8 suspension.

65 Ranchero 200 ci, late 170 head, Autolite 1101, 3.03 3 speed, Maverick 8" 4 lug rear with 3.55 gears.

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Frankenstang
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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #15 by Frankenstang » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:48 am

mustang6 wrote:I have also found them to be surprisingly non-inquisitive on the SCV/non-SCV and distributor matching issue, which is key to a good running engine.


Yeah I think that leads to their dogmatic stance that all aplications 'must be stock' configurations ('68 must have the '68 carb & dizzy pairing, '66 must use a '66 carb & dizzy pairing, no mix-matching heads, etc or it's 'wrong').

I'll be sure to take pics when I open her up, and it will be interesting to see the jet size for one (expecting a larger one as mustang6 mentions) and if there are any other significant visible differences apart from the addition of annular discharge.

Inlinefanatic68 don't get me wrong as I do not mean to suggest that your carb is the only possible issue (eg well worn dizzy as mentioned in the other thread), but as long as this is the case...
Inlinefanatic1968 wrote:The ignition system is functioning properly...it ran just fine before we installed this carb.

Best guess I'd still think something's not right on the new carb since it's the only new factor introduced in the equation.
-Robert
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66 Mustang 200+30, 67 BH, 89 4cyl T-5, 71 Comet 4 lug 8" 3:1rear, 85 T-Bird v6 DS, 10 Mallory Unilite Hyfire VI-A, 08 Vaporizer 1bbl, 68 Cougar 2" exhuast,65 pipe, 74 Mav man disc m/c & Scarebird(87 Stanza rotors 89 Cavalier calipers), 73 Datsun 240z Appliance Wire Mags, 03 Mustang Leather seats
All in one car! Johnny Cash would be proud...I got it One Piece at a Time

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Re: Carb Choling!

Post #16 by mustang652 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:33 pm

Don't know if I'm understanding the symptons fully, but it sounds simulair to the problems that I am now trying to address. For the past couple of years it would start, run reasonably well for a few miles on most occations, then start shuting down like it was running out of gas. Sometimes it would restart immediately, and some times it would take several attempts. Tore apart the carb several time for cleaning, checked flow from mechanical fuel pump, added electric fuel pump with no improvement. I think the problem is going to be the filter on the intake portion of the sender unit. First thing I noticed was the meterial on the filter was black in color, think it was cream or white collor when new, and when held up to the light, no light would not pass through it. Checking it closer, it appeared that the materiel was collapsed onto the plastic cylindar and the materiel was loose from the sender itself possably blocking the fuel.
The '65 is gone, New Pony's a '13 V6 Premium Convertible. Now letting Ford do the work.

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