I rebuilt my 223 about a year ago and was using the stock distributor and stock holley 1904 carb, I also had switched it to 12 volt using a GM alternator, It ran great and idled smoothly but I was thinking it would be nice to get rid of the points and get mechanical advance along with the new distributor and maybe a hotter spark (I had already put an HEI in a jeep 226 with very good results) so I installed a new Duraspark distributor for a Ford 300 and an Accel super coil thinking this would be a slick set-up. Well it does run fine but I have to advance the timing to 16-18 degrees to get a halfway decent idle, it seems to run fine but I'm surprized I can't get a nice smooth idle out of it. It idles a little rough at 5-600 rpm which is a little higher than factory settings anyway. I wonder what I'm missing? new plug wires and all new parts just not as smooth as the old set-up. any ideas? Anyone have firsthand experiance they would share? Thanks guys.
Duraspark 223 issues I'm missing
- Thread starter BradW
- Start date
fmartin_gila
Well-known member
No firsthand experience as I'm still running my original type LOM with a Pertronix Unit & 1904 on mine, but thinking if you are still using the 1904, you do not have the proper vacuum advance match. You might try to use a Carb for a later engine and be able to dial it in. Just food for thought.
Fred
Fred
Lazy JW":aigynfy6 said:
IIRC when the wire from dist to module are reversed timing drops and timing will retard with RPM. if you suspect thisswap the wires and see it time advances or retards. If it advances then you leave it hooked up like that. if it retards then put it back the way it was.
Nope, not the wires. It runs good and I'm driving it around. idle is not to bad but like I said the timing is too advanced. I expected it to have been smoother since the stock set-up was, kind of disappointing. I have an extra GM HEI 4 pin module I might try hooking up and see what that does. I'm pretty sure it's something in the distributor/module and not carburation.
I think you will find that fmartin_gila is right on in his statement. I have done the DSII swaps on the early 300's and the vacuum porting on those old carbs is totally wrong for the newer distribs, they only work right with a LOD type distributor. There is a way to mod the old carb but I would have to think on it a bit, probably someone else with an early 170 or 200 small six has gone through it lately it would be the same process. You could also try a straight manifold vac. source and just plug the carb port to test that. Always when I did it just use to change out the carb to a later model carter or holley at the same time as doing ign. Its a great swap because they run so much better an automatic minimum that I do for any early cars and trucks that will drive very much.
I had some time to do some more reading and check it out some more. I've read that the module and coil should be "matched" and I'd heard a few people bad mouth the Accel Super Coil so I thought I'd change back to the stock coil just to see what happens and it made a slight but noticeable improvement. I adjusted the timing back to where it should be, set the idle up slightly and it seems pretty good, still not quite what I expected but livable, I noticed on the highway I got some pinging so I knew the timing had to go back. It runs pretty good and starts up easily but I'm still thinking I can smooth out the idle. This engine was balanced and went together well and as I mentioned before it idled smooth before any of this distributor swap stuff. I think when I get the time this year I'll try the GM HEI 4 pin module with a high voltage GM coil and see what happens. When I did the swap on my old jeep 226 it was a very noticeable improvement.
I think you are missing the major point. Read this article thoroughly (link below) is explained in good detail how the LOD distributors work they are matched to these old Holley carbs. Check especially last four paragraphs substituting the Holley 1904 for the Autolite 1100 they work on the same principle as did many other early Ford carbs. And then think about how when you mix these two parts together a late DS II (totally different advance system) with the org. Holley 1904. Can it ever work the way it should with this vacuum porting just cause it runs dose not mean it is the optimal setup. You can change to the GM Modu, still won't be the right setup for vac. advance. You would have to re-engineer the carb’s vacuum porting. With a timing lite what is base timing? what dose timing do when you rev it total advance? Is the DSII rotor clocked right pointing to #1 post? Good Luck
http://classicinlines.com/Loadomatic.asp
http://classicinlines.com/Loadomatic.asp
I've read that article and it is good, a couple things though are a little different with my setup. My carb does not have the spark control valve and it runs great when driving, it just doesn't idle as good as it should, vac advance doesn't really come into play at idle which is the only issue I'm having with this setup.
Okay great seems like you know how to check things out so will ask you a couple more things since don’t know what you have tried already. Starting to sound like might be inside the carb’s fuel bowl. How long has it been since you been inside the Holley? Was carb sitting a long time not used or has it been cleaned and rebuilt lately? If it was not is the float good, is the fuel level set right and the float drop adjusted right to low and they will stick and flood too high a level also floods. Sometimes they also stick on the float hinge pin from varnish. Have you made sure the float is not too heavy? The brass ones can crack and absorb fuel you can feel the extra weight or hear the fuel sloshing inside when you shake them or also see the fuel seeping out of the crack. Don’t know if you have one of the glass bowls if so you have probably already checked to see if fuel level is right. My 54 customline has the metal bowl cover on it been hunting for a matched pair of the glass bowl carbs for an offy 2x 1 intake swap that I want to do and to save having to always taking them apart to check fuel levels out. A brass float can be fixed with solder after you dry them out I poke a punch in the crack to open a little more shake them out and dry with a match than solder up the hole. On the needle & seat is it one those with a viton tip or is it the metal? The all metal ones seem to wear a grove in them. NAPA used to carry nice carb kits have not bought one for a while but mine is going to need one soon on next tune it up. Good luck
The carb was rebuilt about a year and a half ago and a new gas tank installed, I drove it all last year and put the new distributor in this last winter, I thought I'd get the ignition working good and then do my next swap which will be 3 carbs and headers. There's pictures of a neat setup using Holley 1904's on ebay #250633490379 (closed auction). Bubba22349 I just put a glass bowl on mine yesterday but it now has a small leak I need to get stopped. I'll do somemore poking around and see what's up with the idle. it's not real bad it's just not as smooth as it could be, I'm thinking it's ignition but I have new wires, distributor, blue strain type module, plugs, year old coil... don't know, seems it shoud be smooth as glass.
Some where in my pile of parts are set of used Clifford pickup headers duel outlets. Get some of the barrymans carb cleaner and clean out all the passages while you are working on the bowl leak is great cleaner for little tune up!
Just as a update: I put in a GM 4 pin module and back to the Accel super coil for a trial run and it seems a bit smoother still, I may try a hotter coil and see what happens. For some reason the super coil and ford module didn't idle as well, the stock coil did a little better and the GM + super coil better still. not really sure why, they all worked fine at speed it was the idle that seemed to be the issue.
Sounds like you are getting closer. Have you though about try one the later E type coils hotter still used on the TFI ign. stock on later Fords like on 5.0 Mustangs? MSD and other make some for that apt. too
Yes I've tried 2 different gaps .035 and .055 and 2 different sets of plugs, I'm going to see about getting a higher quailty cap and rotor to see if there is any difference, plug wires are new and good quaility. may try a hotter coil too. It's pretty good but I think it should be better still.
BradW":3qp33e03 said:
Try sticking the old distributor back in and see what happens. Is there any way you could find a shop with an O-scope to check it out with both ignitions? I have often wondered about the ability of a magnetic pickup to be accurate at low speeds but have never had the means with which to check it out.
Joe