300" L6 Piston & Head Information

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300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #1 by old28racer » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:17 am

How far down are stock 300 pistons from top of block?
How much can be taken off the top of block safely?
How much can be milled from 240 & 300 head?



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:46 am

Depending on the year the pistons can be anywhere from .035" to .070" in the hole.
The piston dish volumes also vary.

There are also 3 different heads that can be used on the 300
The 240 head with around 68cc combustion chambers
The 300 carburetor head with around 76cc combustion chambers.
The EFI head (1987 and newer) with around 68cccombustion chambers.

Can you tell us more about what you would like to accomplish?



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #3 by old28racer » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:32 pm

pmuller9 Thanks for the information. I have built two GM L6 motors, a 194" and a 292", Both for nostalgia front motor dragsters.
I want to take a shot at my first Ford 300 L6. I would like to make 225-250 HP and still use as much factory exchange parts as I can. Lots of research before I get started. Will take all ideas and information I can get. Would like to have a 320" or so motor. Want to be able to run it on premium pump gas.



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #4 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:40 am

Hi Tom,
Generally the pistons sit about .050" down in the bore. With a .040" head gasket that is not enough squeeze in the quench areas to give you much charge motion, so tightening that up can help the engine run more efficiently. As far as milling the block and head surfaces - that is a two-edged sword. Yes, you can gain quench and compression, but at the same time you are taking strength away from the block in its more vulnerable location - the head gasket sealing area. Since I run a lot of compression on my race motors I've had head gasket sealing issues and am reluctant to take more than a clean up cut off those surfaces. Your idea of using the 240 head will raise the compression about 1/2 a ratio, so I would do that and forgo taking lots of metal off the head or block. If you still want to get the piston higher in the block I'd opt for custom pistons or modified 352 FE V8 pistons.
You also mentioned going out to 320 ci. The head ports are too restrictive to support even 300 ci at any appreciable RPM so I do not recommend stroking or boring the cylinders more than .060". Less is more. Yes 1.94 / 1.60 Chevy valves wake up the top end when combined with judicious port and bowl work. I think the bigger intakes contribute more than bigger exhausts (On my 550 HP race engine I'm using 2.02 intakes and 1.55 exhausts.) Also, get rid of the positive exhaust valve rotators. Any good RV or towing cam, or even a higher lift "short track" race cam , a set of EFI cast exhausts and an aftermarket intake should get you to the 250 HP level. Good luck with your project.

I see you posted a similar query on the fordsix website. I'll cut-n-past this reply over there so you may see it sooner.


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #5 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:48 am

One additional suggestion: I have become a believer that the best off-the-shelf intake for either street or race is the Clifford dual quad intake with a couple of low cost Autolite 2100 / 2150 TWO BARRELS, sized accordingly. If you can find one of those intakes scarf it up - before I do. lol.

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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #6 by old28racer » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:25 pm

I trying to get my ducks (maybe rods) in a row I found an old post that said 1965-67 300 rods have .912 pins that are the same as 351W pistons. Is this correct?



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:26 pm

old28racer wrote:I trying to get my ducks (maybe rods) in a row I found an old post that said 1965-67 300 rods have .912 pins that are the same as 351W pistons. Is this correct?


I believe it is actually 1964 to 1968.
The Rod forging number is C5TE-A
They are getting hard to find.

Also look for the 1965 to 1968 240 six rod.
It is 6.8" long (300 rod is 6.2") and will let you use a shorter and much lighter piston.
The rod forging number is C5AE



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #8 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:11 pm

In a 240 ci motor you can use the early rods with a 302 V8 piston. As a matter of fact that's how the early 240s came from the factory.


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #9 by old28racer » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:53 pm

In all my research on this site I am still not finding what I would like to go with, maybe it's not out there. :?:

Is there any off shelf (not custom) pistons with a compression height out there that will work with the with the 300 (6.2) or the 240 (6.8) rods that will place the piston closer than .040-.050 down at TDC. Thinking more like .010-.015 down?



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #10 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:00 pm

no - not to my knowledge - unless you're handy with a mill and a lathe


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #11 by old28racer » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:52 am

Looks like the easiest way would be to use a set of 351 pistons, cut .040-.050 off the top to -0- deck and bush the stock 6,2 300 rods to the .912 pin size. Will be putting ARP rod bolts in so I can have big & small end done at the same time. Is .040-.050 off the piston top doable?



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #12 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:27 pm

old28racer wrote: Is .040-.050 off the piston top doable?

I've done that with a 352 FE piston:

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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #13 by pmuller9 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:24 pm

old28racer wrote:In all my research on this site I am still not finding what I would like to go with, maybe it's not out there. :?:

Is there any off shelf (not custom) pistons with a compression height out there that will work with the with the 300 (6.2) or the 240 (6.8) rods that will place the piston closer than .040-.050 down at TDC. Thinking more like .010-.015 down?

You are looking for a CH of 1.800" which would put the piston .010" from the top.
As FTF pointed out the only piston that is close is the Ford 352 V8 piston with a CH of 1.816" which means .006" would need to be trimmed off the top but then the compression ration is too high and a dish would also need to be milled in the piston.

A custom set of pistons are $565 from Autotec with the .975" pin. They are $48 cheaper per set with the .912", .927" or .990" pins.
The custom piston will have the dish volume needed for the correct compression ratio and the right CH for zero deck without having to machine the block.

Figure in the cost of modifying any off the shelf piston or having to machine the block, head or both, then you can check that against the cost of the custom piston. The custom piston will be a much stronger forged 4032 alloy with your choice of ring sets.



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #14 by old28racer » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:51 pm

Thanks for all the information on pistons, rods and heads that will work with a 300 motor.

I ran across a Speed Pro Forged 351 Oval dish piston L2446F30 today. When you run compression numbers it will still be in the hole .022 at TDC but with a 1.772 CH and 68cc 240 head it would produce 10.28 CR, with a 76cc 300 head around 9.52 CR. Still would have to bush small rod end for a .912 pin, but that's no big deal. Nice forged piston that you do not have to cut and at $348 not bad price. Dish is 13.20 cc. I think for a prem. pump gas motor 10.28 CR would work real well. I will agree that a little head and block milling cost will bring the price near custom piston prices.

my problem is that I am an "Old School" motor builder and like to try a lot of parts from other motors to see if I can put a strong 300 together. :mrgreen:



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #15 by arse_sidewards » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:00 am

Are there any rods with a compatible crank end (or close enough that one could use oversize bearings from their original application)? That could open up more forged and hyper piston choices.

Taking some material off the face of a piston with a fly-cutter is a very simple job.

If one could use an off the shelf or at least not uncommon rod in combination with an off the shelf forged piston that was decked some (or a lot) that's only a single fairly cheap machining operation. When you consider the number of people who could get such a simple job done cheap, in exchange for other work or as a favor that could be a very attractive combination for the guys who don't want to go all out but want to knock a fair bit of weight off.


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:26 am

If the Piston CH is 1.772 with a deck height of 10.00" and a rod length of 6.20" (After it has been resized), 3.98" stroke,
The piston is .038" from the deck top.
Using a .039" thick head gasket and 13.2 cc piston dish brings the compression ratio to 9.5 with the 68cc head and 8.9 with the 76cc head.
If you mill the block for zero deck
68cc head = 10.3
76cc head = 9.5

The Speed Pro L2446F30 piston is only for a press fit pin so bushing the small rod end is not an option.

If you want to bush the rod ends you can use the Icon IC9925-030 forged piston which is set up for a floating pin.
1.774 CH
11cc volume in valve pockets.



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #17 by old28racer » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:35 pm

Ok guys, even thought I would like to use off shelf pistons and 240 or 300 rods, with the press or float issue and head & block milling cost the Auto Tec Custom pistons are looking like the best road to take. My only question is how do I get the correct CH to -0- deck after the block is milled .010-.020 to true it up. What information are they going to ask? What is a 300 stock cylinder height and where is it measured from (the bottom where the pan mounts to top of block)? I like that the pistons can be had both pressed & floating in the 300 6.8 rod with the .975 pin. Still not sure on what head to use 240-68cc or an early year 300-76cc head. Either one will be P&P, 1.94/1.64 intake and exhaust.

I think I'm on the right track and may be close to a build start. :D



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #18 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:49 pm

The nominal deck height is 10.0000" as measured from the CL of the crank journals.

If you are ordering custom flat tops then you will have plenty of compression with the early 300 head - 76 cc. You will not need valve reliefs in them.


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #19 by old28racer » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:03 pm

Thanks Greg, do you think I will be able to be in the 10.25-10.50 CR? I do not want to go any higher on Prem Pump Gas.



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:39 pm

old28racer wrote:Thanks Greg, do you think I will be able to be in the 10.25-10.50 CR? I do not want to go any higher on Prem Pump Gas.

It depends on the camshaft intake duration or intake valve closing point.
If the cam has an advertised intake duration around 288* or more, then no problem.



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #21 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:06 pm

Well if you assume 78 cc for the chamber after a clean-up and valve job and about 7 cc for the head gasket plus a couple more for any valve head tulip and spark plug volume at zero deck you'll have about 10.5:1 static, which is pushing it for pump gas. I have a similar street rod (cammed) that I have to mix in a gallon of 110 RON with every fill up to keep the spark close to MBT and no detonation.


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #22 by old28racer » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:25 pm

Greg, maybe I would be better to go for 10.0 CR with our Prem gas out here at around 97-98 oct. I ran my SDRA dragster at 10.0 on Prem pump gas. That was a 194 GM with a soild Clay Smith cam and about 36 deg of advance. What cam do you have in your street rod?

This motor hopefully will end up in a D/G or E/G drag car or maybe in an altered for our open wheel nostalgia class. No street time!



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #23 by bubba22349 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:35 pm

Also if you have access to a set of early 240 or 300 rods they will have the smaller .912 pin size. If you go with the custom pistions then you could use the longer 240 rods for a little less pistion weight and maybe a little less cylinder wall loading. Good luck on your build. :nod:


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #24 by pmuller9 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:59 pm

On the left is the Autotec piston made for the 240 rod used on the 300 crank and the stock piston on the right.
The stock piston and .975" pin weighs 819 grams
The Autotec piston and .912" pin weighs 575 grams.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h5rwpzcctzeew ... 8.JPG?dl=0

The pistons have a 10cc dish for a 9.75 compression ratio for use with pump gas.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0a5olnskn79m1 ... 2.JPG?dl=0

The cam is a 232/232 .050" 288/288 advertised .534 lift. on a 112* LSA

This is the same piston on the 240 rod that has been polished, shot peened and resized with ARP bolt.
Notice the early rods with the .912" pin do not have the oil spit hole in the big end. The spit hole can be a point of rod failure at high rpm.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9u6bhvzw0p5w ... 0.jpg?dl=0



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #25 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:07 pm

Tom, I'd say if you are building it for on track action only I'd run it with the higher compression discussed. But I'll never build another street 300 with a CR over 10:1. (I forgot the specs of the Crane cam I have in there but its pretty stout.)

Now you've got me curious about the gasser. More info please.


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #26 by old28racer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:09 pm

Greg, I think I will try for a 10.50 - 10.75 CR and add a little 110 to the tank. I would still like to run a 240 head with (68cc) chambers and 1.94/1.64 valves. This is the same size head I ran on my 194" GM L6 and it really woke it up. If you come up with the Crain Cam spec's let me know if you would. I want the motor to be manageable at the track and still be respectable. Because I will run a little 110 in the tank I may even push CR up to 11:1.

I want something a little different in a gasser. Car will be a 38 Chevy Coupe with a 9" and straight tube front axel. Most guys just drop a SBC & glide and call it good. Most be 10-15 out west with that setup. Cost more to build a like 292 L6 than I will have in a 300. I have never ran a C4 or C6 trans so that will be new. I plan on running 4 Holly 94's (have them left from the 194 motor. they flow 150 cfm as singles and around 425-475 as a 4x2 setup because of a lower vacuum. Want to keep the car very 50's-60's Nostalgia. It's all on paper and in my head right know, lot's of work ahead. Should be a one of kind build out this way. Will run DG (10.50) or EG (11.50) index.

All the re-search and question are good therapy for me after my stroke. I may never be able to drive it on the track again but a good friend and race buddy can peddle it for me. Thanks Tom



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #27 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:37 pm

I looked up my engine specs. I built this in the '80s when I didn't know any better. I used the biggest hydraulic cam Crane offered at the time.

Specs:
#H-216/3027-2S-12
272/284 adv
.487/.515 lift
.535/.566 w/ 1.75 rar
440#/in K spring
110# closed
216/228 @ .050

This cam is surprisingly streetable. Other driveline pcs include 2500 CJ converter, 3.50 9" posi, 31" tires.

Chevy Z-28 12:1 Pistons w/ domes milled down

Still running strong on street and occasional drags.

I'd say 11.50s is a realistic goal. Good luck with your project. Sounds like fun.


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #28 by old28racer » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:48 am

Greg, are you running stock 300 6.8 rods? Are they & the pistons press or floating? Are the Z28 pistons forged or cast? Are you running 240 or 300 head? do you remember how much you milled of the piston dome?

Sorry for picking your brain, but I gotta ask. Tom



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #29 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:36 pm

In that street / strip engine I used the stock 300 rods, 6.21". I think I made them full floating. The TRW Z-28 pistons were 12.5:1 forged units, but I think I got the pin offset reversed on a couple of them because the engine has always had piston slap noise. That engine uses an early 300 head. I milled the dome at an angle to match the angle of the 300 valves - 12 degrees vs 23 degrees for the SBC. That gave me about 11.5:1 CR. Too much. I blew a head gasket on the street. So I took the pistons out and milled the domes down where the minimum thickness was .150" locally. That gave me about 10.5:1. Still more than I would build today for the street.

But she do go.

Image

That engine is several generations removed from my current race engines which use Oliver connecting rods in the 240 length (6.79") Diamond custom pistons, and roller cam / valvetrain.


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #30 by old28racer » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:22 pm

Thanks a ton for all the information. If I use the SLP-L2446F30 pistons with a -0- deck and a 240 68cc head with a set of early 300 .912 pin rods I can get 10.28 CR in a forged piston with out braking the bank. They run $385 for a set of 8. SLP piston is a press fit pin so it will work with the early 6.2 rods. Would like to get a little more CR, maybe 10.50 but 10.28 will do and I get a forged piston. Piston has an oval dish of 13.20cc.

I think with a nice header, good intake with my 4x2 setup, Nice soild cam and a MSD Billet dizzy hopefully 240-260 HP.

Any idea where I can get a set of early 300 6.2 .912 pin rods?

PS has your race season started yet.



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #31 by pmuller9 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:27 pm

B&P rods may have the 64 - 68, 300 .912" pin rods. Forging number C5TE-A.
I'm not sure if they will sell cores. They may only have the rebuilt rods available which may work for you depending on the price.
Talk to Miles.

Otherwise place an add in the wanted section of this forum.



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #32 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:04 pm

old28racer wrote:Any idea where I can get a set of early 300 6.2 .912 pin rods?

PS has your race season started yet.

I think I have a set of early early 6.21 rods w/ a .912 pin hole and no oil spit hole. I was hoarding them but am getting to the point in my life where I have too much stuff. PM me.

I've been working on rebuilding my race motor. Short block done. Head done. Its going back in the chassis tomorrow for a debut next weekend.


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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #33 by old28racer » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:49 am

Greg, I sent you a PM on the rods and a 240 head. Tom



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Re: 300" L6 Piston & Head Information

Post #34 by old28racer » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:59 pm

Any one out there have a bare 240-68cc head they would part with. Trying to find out what's around.



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