Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

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old28racer
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Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #1 by old28racer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:10 pm

What year were the early high compression 300 heads build?

Was the chamber shape a (D) or Kidney?

What was the cc?
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #2 by CNC-Dude » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:11 pm

I don't think the 300 ever came with a "high compression" head, you must be thinking of the smaller chamber 240 head that has the kidney shaped chamber.
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:43 pm

All early 300 heads have the same 76cc +/- "D" shaped chamber.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9dpif5xrxob8g ... 0.JPG?dl=0
The 1987 and later 300 heads have 69cc +/- heart shaped chambers. (EFI Heads)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/c2wxpsuq25rp1 ... 3.jpg?dl=0
The 240 heads have 69cc +/- kidney shaped chambers
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyuh9cujxmain ... 8.JPG?dl=0

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #4 by old28racer » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:58 pm

Thanks guys, I just though that the 1973 -75 300 head was a small chamber 68cc, don't know where I got that feeling. I know about the 240 1963 - 74 kidney shape 68cc heads and the standard 1973 - 87 D shape 76cc along with the 1987 - 96 EFI Heart shape 69cc head like I have now on my 300 mild street motor build.

Looking into the future I hope to build a 250 - 300 Drag race motor with custom forged FT pistons, Crower rods, Steel crank, Roller cam, Twin alcohol carbs or maybe injection on a custom intake. Will need 12.5 - 13 CR with this setup.

I know that both the 240 68cc & the 300 76cc head have very poor intake flow and both need proper P&P. The 240 head has the advantage of 68cc chambers. Got any feeling on running 240 head with the piston CH to make my 13 CR or would you run a 300 head with proper piston CH to get the same 13 CR?

What I am asking is the 300 76cc a better overall head or do they both need the same work to get to where I want to be?
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:18 am

Once you decide to have a 13:1 compression ratio, the piston requires around a .100" dome no matter which head you choose so one head doesn't have any advantage over the other as far as chamber size.

With enough work any of the three heads can be made to flow about the same.

If you have to buy a head I would look at the Engine Quest aftermarket head that has a much thicker deck and will seal better on a high compression engine.

A drag engine as you are describing makes over 400 HP on methanol.

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #6 by old28racer » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:54 pm

pmuller9 -- Might have to drop the CR to around 11.00 - 11.50 so I can go with a -0- deck and FT race pistons. I get what you say about the heads flow but is a 76CC head less work on P&P over the other too?

400 HP would be more than needed for a 1350 - 1500 #, 100-110" WB, Nostalgia Altered Drag Car. Do you think I could make 350 HP with the lower 11.0-11.50 CR? With the parts combination listed do you think it would make a reliable setup? I have been drag racing for 40+ years and built all my own motors (never had the money to have others build for me or wanted them to). I know the work it takes to keep a drag race motor alive and on the track.

I know alcohol loves compression so maybe I would be better off to take some cam out of the setup and back the timing down a little to get get into the 335-350 HP range.
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:37 pm

First let me state that the head should not be milled more than needed to straighten the deck.
You would be suprised how much the center of the head deck depresses under load.

Given the above, a 76 cc head actually ends up with a 80cc chamber with SBC valves and chamber unshrouding.
A FT piston gives you a 10.4 compression ratio with this head.

An EFI head that has been unshrouded for larger valves has a 75cc chamber for a 11:1 compression ratio.

A reworked 240 head is somehwere just over 70cc. I will know more closely by the end of this week.

You can use methanol in all those cases. There will be some loss in torque with the lower compression but 350 HP is still within reach.

You will not need a steel crank.
You can use the 2.100" journal 6.385" BBC rod with the stock iron crankshaft and save yourself some money.
You can stay with a flat tappet cam if you only need 350 hp and save another $1000 over the cost of a roller cam and roller lifters.
Cam the engine for peak power at 6000 rpm and it will be reliable with the above mentioned parts.

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #8 by old28racer » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:37 am

pmuller9 -- Thanks for the information, know I have a couple of stupid questions, please bare with me.

I'm on board on clean up cuts only to any 240/300 heads. I think I would like to find a 240 head out hear in southern CA. When I started this current 300 build I found one about 60 miles away, doable.

Good news on the Cam / Rods/ Crank. That would be a 1500-2500 savings. Is there any Chevy off the shelf pistons that will fit the BBC rods and make around 11.5 - 12.5 CR with 68cc heads and maybe -0- deck the block?

Now the big question. How do I make the BBC 6.385" long rods with 2.100 journals fit the 300 crank rod journals that are 2.1228 - 2.1236'?
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:29 am

old28racer wrote:Is there any Chevy off the shelf pistons that will fit the BBC rods and make around 11.5 - 12.5 CR with 68cc heads and maybe -0- deck the block?

Only if you can figure a way to fit a 4.25" BBC piston in a 4" hole. :lol:
No matter what connecting rod is used for this project there are no shelf forged pistons that will work.
Think custom.

old28racer wrote:Now the big question. How do I make the BBC 6.385" long rods with 2.100 journals fit the 300 crank rod journals that are 2.1228 - 2.1236'?

If it is a used crank chances are it will need to have the rod journals turned down .010".
Instead of .010" you have the journals turned down .023".
Bring the new rods with the bearings torqued in place so the machinist can measure the ID and turn the crank journals for the exact bearing clearance.

The BBC rods will need one modification.
The big ends only have a chamfer on one side because they sit side by side with another rod on a V8.
The chamfer will need to be duplicated on the other side of the big end to work with a straight six.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nrmpmqhc5ni5l ... e.jpg?dl=0

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #10 by CNC-Dude » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:53 am

V8 connecting rods are also offset in width in the bearing
end of the rods. This moves the connecting rod to one side or the other on the crank journal and makes it fit into the piston offcenter as well. Just make sure the small end of the rod doesn't bind or rub the pistons pins boss.
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #11 by arse_sidewards » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:23 pm

old28racer wrote:Now the big question. How do I make the BBC 6.385" long rods with 2.100 journals fit the 300 crank rod journals that are 2.1228 - 2.1236'?


With a boring head and the things required to make proper use of it.
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #12 by old28racer » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:21 pm

[b]pmuller9 & CNC-Dude[/b] --- If I take a set of BBC rods that have this big end off-set, Take care of the other side chamfer, Bush the small end for .990 floating pins and order a set of Forged custom pistons in the correct CH with floating pins to make 11.5 - 12.5 CR with 68cc heads. Will the floating pins help take care of the big end off set situation?

Also are stock 300 rods with ARP bolts not strong enough for 325-350 HP or are they right on the chancy?

Those Molnar BBC rods are nice looking but a bit pricy at $634 for set of 8. Does Scat make any BBC I or H beam rods?
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #13 by CNC-Dude » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:01 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:
old28racer wrote:Now the big question. How do I make the BBC 6.385" long rods with 2.100 journals fit the 300 crank rod journals that are 2.1228 - 2.1236'?


With a boring head and the things required to make proper use of it.

You make the crank fit the rods, not make the rods fit the crank.
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #14 by CNC-Dude » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:12 pm

old28racer wrote:[b]pmuller9 & CNC-Dude[/b] --- If I take a set of BBC rods that have this big end off-set, Take care of the other side chamfer, Bush the small end for .990 floating pins and order a set of Forged custom pistons in the correct CH with floating pins to make 11.5 - 12.5 CR with 68cc heads. Will the floating pins help take care of the big end off set situation?

Also are stock 300 rods with ARP bolts not strong enough for 325-350 HP or are they right on the chancy?

Those Molnar BBC rods are nice looking but a bit pricy at $634 for set of 8. Does Scat make any BBC I or H beam rods?


One problem with using Big Block style rods and Small Block style piston forgings, is the S/E of the Big Block style rods are often too wide to fit into the space between the pin bosses of the Small Block style piston forgings. You may have to trim the width of the rods down on the S/E to allow some amount of compensation for this offset if they are too wide. Scat does make both I-beam and H-beam rods and so does Eagle and Manley. So these may be alternatives. One other solution is to find a single H-beam or I-beam rod on ebay and use it to mock up and do some ciphering before pulling the trigger on a full set.
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #15 by old28racer » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:53 pm

CNC-Dude--- I do not plan on running SBC pistons. I will be ordering custom forged BBC pistons with .990 floating pins. Thanks for the heads up on the rods. I have used both Eagle & Scat rods before in BBC drag race motors with good results.
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #16 by CNC-Dude » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:36 pm

Any piston in the bore size you are going to get is made from what is considered a small block based piston forging. You are just going to be using a BBC pin size. Piston manufacturers often create pistons for many different engine brands using a somewhat universal forging die. In the case of engines with a 4" bore size, they can make quite a number of blanks from just one die design that are finish machined into SBF, SBC, SBChry, Ford 6 240/300, etc....I knew the owners of CP Pistons before they started that company 20+ years ago when they were with JE Pistons, and they said as they were beginning to stockpile assets to kick off their venture that just a single forging die costs $5000 to produce. This was early to mid 1990's dollars, i'm sure its higher to make one today. But the point is they can really stretch their dollars by being able to use a single die to produce a wide variety of piston blanks with the same bore size. So your Ford 6 pistons will be forged using dies made originally for a small block engine most likely. This is common practice with the piston companies to do this, and when they are finish machined, the valve angle, or pin sizes makes them more application specific at that point.
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:58 pm

old28racer wrote:If I take a set of BBC rods that have this big end off-set, Take care of the other side chamfer, Bush the small end for .990 floating pins and order a set of Forged custom pistons in the correct CH with floating pins to make 11.5 - 12.5 CR with 68cc heads. Will the floating pins help take care of the big end off set situation?

The aftermarket rods already have bushed small ends.
The Ford 300 rod small end width is .994" and the BBC "H" beam small ends can vary from 1.050" to 1.125" wide. The BBC rod beam offset is .060" at the most.
There should be enough to remove the offset by taking some off one side of the small end width if a person wanted to.
However my last set of custom 300 pistons had the small end specified and the piston was made to accommodate the rod. No big deal!

old28racer wrote:Also are stock 300 rods with ARP bolts not strong enough for 325-350 HP or are they right on the chancy?

It is a matter of economics.
By the time a set of stock rods are polished, shot peened, resized with ARP bolts and the small end bushed, the cost will exceed the price of a set of eight Eagle rods and not much less than the price of Molnars or K1s and you still don't have the strength of the aftermarket rods.

old28racer wrote:Those Molnar BBC rods are nice looking but a bit pricy at $634 for set of 8. Does Scat make any BBC I or H beam rods?

The Molnar rods are $603 with free shipping. A set of eight Eagle rods can be as low as mid $400s.
Scat does not make 2.100" journal BBC rods.

Here are the 4 choices for the least expensive 6.385" small journal BBC rods.

Eagle CRS6385B3D
K1 CH6385ALRB8-A
Molnar CH6385NTB8-A
Compstar CSB6385DS3B4AH

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #18 by WorldChampGramp » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:34 am

Ouch :nono: Don't give away the farm before the field is plowed. Bruce

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #19 by worken2much » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:30 am

I went through the BBC rod & custom piston thing recently. The Mohlnar folks advised against it. They advised that past racers had seen as much as a 30-35 Hp increase when going to a custom rod without the .060 offset.

I understand the issue as two fold. The rod is side loaded enough that the piston tips, thus affecting proper ring seal. They were even patient enough to send a drawing illustrating the point.

You folks would know better than I. What say you?

Thank you,
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:57 pm

Workin2much
Thanks for sharing the info from Molnar.
I had a similar conversation with them a while back and also discussed the cost of custom rods.
I still believe there is a solution.

The 300 rod small end width is .994" and is centered over the .994" wide big end.
The BBC small end can vary in width depending on the brand but is always wider than the big end.
I'm thinking that if the BBC small end can be centered over the big end by removing some width off the sides, the loading on the piston pin should be centered despite the beam being off center.
I've also measured some of our BBC rods and have seen as little as .030" beam offset depending on the brand.

Would you post the drawing they sent you or a recreation of it from memory?
Thanks

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #21 by worken2much » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:59 pm

Pmuller9,

Easiest would be if you have an e-mail address you can share, I'll forward it to you.

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #22 by old28racer » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:38 pm

Thanks too all for the learning experience. :nod:

pmuller9--- I think the Eagle rods with 8740 ARP rod bolts (good for 800 BBC HP) should be more than needed for a 325 - 350 HP 300 race motor. At $459 they are a pretty good deal. After putting all the go fast parts together for this motor I think I like them better than getting a set of OEM BBC rods race ready.

Just for some "hard head storage" :bang: What OEM BBC rods had the small 2.100 big end size and what years were they produced?
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #23 by pmuller9 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:38 pm

old28racer wrote:Just for some "hard head storage" :bang: What OEM BBC rods had the small 2.100 big end size and what years were they produced?

There weren't any OEM BBC 2.100" journal rods made.
It was strictly an aftermarket rod that used 2.100" SBC rod bearings.

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #24 by old28racer » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:43 pm

Thanks, now I don't feel so bad as I was sure all 396,401, 427,454 & 502 BBC had the same big end.

As my old race friends at Arias pistons have merged with CP Carrillo Inc. and they are not really into inline 6 pistons might I ask what piston makers are into Ford 300 forged FT race pistons? I know that FTF uses Diamond pistons in one of his drag race motors. Got a few others?

I ran some numbers 4.030 bore, 3.98 stroke, 68cc chamber, FT piston, -0- deck, .038 gasket works out to 11.95 CR that would be great with the alcohol drag motor I have in my head. The FT piston needs to have a .990 floating pin that will work with a Eagle 6.385 long 2.100 big end rod.
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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:49 am

old28racer wrote:As my old race friends at Arias pistons have merged with CP Carrillo Inc. and they are not really into inline 6 pistons might I ask what piston makers are into Ford 300 forged FT race pistons? I know that FTF uses Diamond pistons in one of his drag race motors. Got a few others?

A piston is unique to a certain engine or cylinder head when it needs valve pockets and/or a dome that matches the specific head's valve angles and combustion chamber so the piston maker needs to know what engine and head ..ect

A FT piston for a Ford 240/300 six doesn't need any valve pockets so it is just a FT piston where you specify the piston pin, pin CH, the ring set, bore diameter, what type of use and QTY. The engine they are being made for is irrelevant because there are no specific requirements base on a specific engine brand.
In other words any piston maker including Arias and CP will make you a 4.030" FT piston with a BBC .990" pin.

The least expensive piston will be from RaceTec.

old28racer wrote:I ran some numbers 4.030 bore, 3.98 stroke, 68cc chamber, FT piston, -0- deck, .038 gasket works out to 11.95 CR

As I explained earlier, by the time you install larger valves and unshroud the chamber the volume will be over 70cc.
You want as much head deck thickness as possible for high compression use so milling the head beyond what is needed to straighten the deck for the sake of raising the compression is not a good idea. You didn't suggest milling but I wanted to add the info anyway.

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Re: Early Ford 300 head (years / shape / cc)

Post #26 by old28racer » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:50 pm

pmuller9 --- thanks for the piston information. I will call Race Tec and see what they get for a Forged Custom piston that will fit & work with a set of Eagle H-beam BBC 2.100 big end rods with ,990 floating pins.

I am on board with not milling the head pass a clean up cut.
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