Searching for Builds / Combos

Max_Effort · Post #1 by **Max_Effort** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:45 pm

Hi,

I’ve searching around this forum looking for engine builds and combos for the 300. I seem to get a massive amount of search matches, but not really finding builds and combos.

I’m in the planning stages of a personal project, the 300 in a 1983 F150 4x4. I’m interested in NA builds and modest boost turbo builds. I’m looking for an increase in power and torque across a wide RPM range, with good drive-ability.
If this can be done NA at a reasonable cost, it will probably go that way. If not, then the modest (6-10 PSI) boost route.

A good start for me would be some direction to suitable build threads or examples of these types of combos. Then I can ask more specific questions.
TIA!

pmuller9 · Post #2 by **pmuller9** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:07 pm

The stock cylinder head does not support a lot of power past 3500 to 4000 rpm so if you want a 300 six with a wide power band that problem needs to be addressed.
The head gets larger valves so the throat can be opened up and the rest of the work focuses in the bowl area.

My last build was designed to have a good power band from 2000 to 5500 rpm.
The head received SBC 2.02" intake and 1.60" exhaust valves (4.91" length) along with a CNC port job. A 1.94"/1.6" valve combination does just as well.

Intake port

Exhaust port

The head was drilled and tapped for 7/16" studs and BBC roller rockers.
Your head has pushrod guide slots in the head and will not need pushrod guide plates shown below.

pmuller9 · Post #3 by **pmuller9** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:21 pm

Since we wanted to turn some decent rpm for a 300 six it was decided to use the 6.8" long 240 six rod to reduce piston weight and piston side loading.
The 1965 to 1968 rods do not have the oiling hole in the large end which can be a point of rod failure plus the early rods have a smaller 9.12" pin rather than the later 9.75" pin. Connecting rod forging number found on the lower beam is C5AE.

We were able to reduce piston and pin weight from the stock 819 grams down to 574 grams.
Custom pistons are forged 4032 alloy from Autotec. Dish volume was selected for a 9.75:1 compression ratio.

The 240 rods had the beams polished, shot peened and the rods were resized with ARP bolts.

pmuller9 · Post #4 by **pmuller9** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:54 pm

Every edge on the block was radiused and all casting lines were ground flush.
All flashing was ground off the block especially the curtains found in the cam tunnel.
There are also pockets of sand and iron in the crankcase that need removed.

ARP head and main cap studs were used. The one main stud interferes with the oil pump.
A .060" aluminum spacer was required under the oil pump along with some grinding on the oil pump body and the top of the stud.

The rest of the build includes:
Hedman street headers
Intake for a 4 barrel carburetor. The Offenhauser "C" is recommended
Quick Fuel HR 650 Carburetor
Jones Cam. .050" duration 232/232, Advertised duration 288/288, .534" lift with 1.6 ratio rocker, 112* LSA.
DS 2 distributor with MSD 6AL ignition.

Owner reports plenty of power from 2000 rpm and 18 mpg on the highway at 70 mph during last trip from Spokane WA to Boise ID.
It's in a 1977 2wd pickup.
I'm waiting for WOT report after 500 mile break in oil change.

Max_Effort · Post #5 by **Max_Effort** » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:27 am

pmuller9 wrote:The stock cylinder head does not support a lot of power past 3500 to 4000 rpm so if you want a 300 six with a wide power band that problem needs to be addressed.
The head gets larger valves so the throat can be opened up and the rest of the work focuses in the bowl area.

My last build was designed to have a good power band from 2000 to 5500 rpm.
The head received SBC 2.02" intake and 1.60" exhaust valves (4.91" length) along with a CNC port job. A 1.94"/1.6" valve combination does just as well.

Intake port

Exhaust port

The head was drilled and tapped for 7/16" studs and BBC roller rockers.
Your head has pushrod guide slots in the head and will not need pushrod guide plates shown below.

Thanks, who has the CNC program? Is it just for a new casting? What is the CSA, flow and velocity when it’s done?

Most likely I’ll be hand porting the heads. Are then any photos on this site of well done hand ported heads. I’m interested in CSA, bowl shapes, throat percentage, short turn radius, valve job that has proven to work well.

I’ve been reading here that the BBC rocker swap is common. Do the stamped steel 1.72 ratio (Stock BBC) work out?

Max_Effort · Post #6 by **Max_Effort** » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:49 am

pmuller9 wrote:Since we wanted to turn some decent rpm for a 300 six it was decided to use the 6.8" long 240 six rod to reduce piston weight and piston side loading.
The 1965 to 1968 rods do not have the oiling hole in the large end which can be a point of rod failure plus the early rods have a smaller 9.12" pin rather than the later 9.75" pin. Connecting rod forging number found on the lower beam is C5AE.

We were able to reduce piston and pin weight from the stock 819 grams down to 574 grams.
Custom pistons are forged 4032 alloy from Autotec. Dish volume was selected for a 9.75:1 compression ratio.

What is the compression height of those Autotec pistons?
Any good sources for used 240 rods? (eBay wasn’t too promising at the moment)

Max_Effort · Post #7 by **Max_Effort** » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:56 am

Any using 351W pistons? Pistons used in the lightning engine, are similar comp ht, lighter and a better ring pack. Rods would need to be bushed down.

pmuller9 · Post #8 by **pmuller9** » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:15 pm

C-Tech once had the CNC program but it is no longer available anywhere that I know of.
Superflow 110 @ 28 inches.
Lift, I, E
.100, 59, 47
.200, 113, 87
.300, 160, 120
.400, 192, 145
.500, 204, 163
.600, 212, 178

The Autotec piston CH for my build was 1.190". It can be 1.200" if the block deck only needs a small cleanup cut.

It is hard finding a good set of six 240 rods. It can take as many as 2 sets to find 6 good cores.
The source I used to use for cores will only sell finished remanufactured rods.
The best bet would be to post in the wanted section of this forum.

Isn't the lightning engine a 3.55" bore?

If you have to bush the rods to use a forged 351W piston, it is as cheap or cheaper to use the Autotec piston and get the ring set you want along with the correct CH and dish volume.

If the 351W piston set that it being considered has an offset pin then only 4 of the 8 pistons can be used on the 300 six unless the piston top and dish is symetrical and the piston can be used in either direction.

sandboxer · Post #9 by **sandboxer** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:34 am

What hp/tq numbers did you come up with, pm? Please let us know if your client gets some dyno numbers.
Thanks

pmuller9 · Post **#10** by **pmuller9** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:05 am

sandboxer wrote:What hp/tq numbers did you come up with, pm? Please let us know if your client gets some dyno numbers.
Thanks

I moved from WA state before I had a chance to dyno the engine.
I was expecting 320 hp at 5200 rpm and 350 ft/lbs at 3600 rpm at the flywheel.
I will encourage the client to do a chassis dyno and report back.

pmuller9 · Post **#11** by **pmuller9** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:08 am

We need others to report their combinations also.
I went first to get the thread going.

BigBlue94 · Post **#12** by **BigBlue94** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:11 am

Lightning engine is a 5.8L with no major changes other than cam and intake.

Many people use 351w pistons, and if you are at .050 over, you can use 390 pistons, which don't require rod bushings.

I have a build in progress.

https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78031

clintonvillian · Post **#13** by **clintonvillian** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:25 am

Pmuller,

Is Ctech no longer doing the ported 6 heads? What happened?

If not, I guess I got lucky then......

pmuller9 · Post **#14** by **pmuller9** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:59 pm

clintonvillian wrote:Is Ctech no longer doing the ported 6 heads? What happened?

They aren't doing CNC porting at this time. Arnie will do a manual port job if needed.
Don't know if this is permanent or temp.
Can't really tell you what happened.

Superbum · Post **#15** by **Superbum** » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:46 am

My 300 is a .020 over with 9.2:1 compression ratio mildly ported head with si 1.94 and 1.60 valves. A Clifford 4 barrel intake with a Holley truck avenger carb. Then I chose was the lunati cam 219/227@.050 and .499/.522. It ran 150hp at the wheels in a 1982 bronco with a np435 a 9" and 31" tires. The torque curve was 300 ftlbs at 1000rpm up to 400ftlbs before the fuel pump could not keep up.

deere114 · Post **#16** by **deere114** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:34 am

It makes 400ftlbs but only 150hp?

Superbum · Post **#17** by **Superbum** » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:27 pm

I know I expected a lot better but as I said the fuel pump could not keep up. I'd like to try it again after I upgrade to a better pump.

Wesman07 · Post **#18** by **Wesman07** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:10 pm

There are a few things that do not add up with those numbers. Are you sure the guy running the dyno knew what he was doing?

Superbum · Post **#19** by **Superbum** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:29 am

I know I thought the HP number was low especially for the amount of work that went into the build. I was also dissatisfied with the Dyno work being that there was no printout I only had his word to go on.

Wesman07 · Post **#20** by **Wesman07** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:08 pm

Superbum:

Your friends dyno has to be wildly out of calibration or there was some serious user error.

1) It is not likely to pass 200ft/lb @ 1,000 rpm with a cam that size and short intake runners.
150ft/lbs maybe...

2)You would break 150 hp if you hit 400 ft/lbs almost anywhere in the power band. Above 2,000 rpm to be exact.

(RPM * T) / 5252=HP
https://spicerparts.com/calculators/hor ... calculator

Superbum · Post **#21** by **Superbum** » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:11 am

First off who said this guy was my friend. I all ready expressed my dissatisfaction with his work.
#1 if you use the calculator you yourself have posted you can see that it only takes 57.1 HP to put out 300 ftlbs of torque. I can tell you just by driving the truck it definitely does. That said a Clifford intake is not a short runner intake. I'm not sure why you would think it is unless you want to compare it to a tunnel ram.
#2 yes 400ftlbs @2000 rpm would only make 152hp but if that is where the fuel pump falterd it couldn't make any more HP than that.

Max_Effort · Post **#22** by **Max_Effort** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:09 am

I've decided to go turbo/megasquirt on the build. I want something a little different and I like the stout torque numbers I've been reading about.

I just picked up an EFI engine core. I figure it's a lot better start because of the EFI bits it has already. Not sure what year the engine is. It was listed as a 96, but another guy there said an 89. It has 44k on it and is fully dressed for a reasonable cost.

Do you folks have any tips to ID the year?

It will get a full tear down and cleaning. Then I'll, PT, mag, measure and sonic test it. Hopefully it's a solid core.

pmuller9 · Post **#23** by **pmuller9** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:25 pm

What head will you use?

deere114 · Post **#24** by **deere114** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:01 pm

If there's an 02 sensor in the exhaust manifold it's a 96' 97-95 where in a small cross over right before the cat. 96' trucks were ob2 maf systems. The intake pipe to the throttle body was a Y merging the two pipes off the throttle body to one larger pipe which housed a maf sensor right before the air box. The intake manifold was also a little different shaped on a 96. More of a < shape versus the [ shape of the 87-95. I don't think either intake manifold is any better then the other, my guess they changed the casting for reason related to its manufacturing. The 96' engine would have hyper pistons with a metric ring pack, these pistons are stronger then the cast units in other 300's. That's really the only advantage of starting with a 96' engine. If your changing pistons it really doesn't matter which efi 300 you start off with.

Max_Effort · Post **#25** by **Max_Effort** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:00 am

deere114 wrote:If there's an 02 sensor in the exhaust manifold it's a 96' 97-95 where in a small cross over right before the cat. 96' trucks were ob2 maf systems. The intake pipe to the throttle body was a Y merging the two pipes off the throttle body to one larger pipe which housed a maf sensor right before the air box. The intake manifold was also a little different shaped on a 96. More of a < shape versus the [ shape of the 87-95. I don't think either intake manifold is any better then the other, my guess they changed the casting for reason related to its manufacturing. The 96' engine would have hyper pistons with a metric ring pack, these pistons are stronger then the cast units in other 300's. That's really the only advantage of starting with a 96' engine. If your changing pistons it really doesn't matter which efi 300 you start off with.

Thanks, it's definitely an 89. It has the features mentioned. I was looking at it, comparing to what you wrote then saw the valve cover sticker in the rear 12-7-88 doh...

Max_Effort · Post **#26** by **Max_Effort** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:04 am

pmuller9 wrote:What head will you use?

Prob the EFI head.... its more convenient to build the complete core engine and keep the truck running until it's time to swap.

pmuller9 · Post **#27** by **pmuller9** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:59 am

I'm sure you know this, a lot of the used EFI heads are found to have cracks in the chamber area and else where so be sure to mag the head.
What rpm range do you want the power to be at?

Max_Effort · Post **#28** by **Max_Effort** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:17 pm

pmuller9 wrote:I'm sure you know this, a lot of the used EFI heads are found to have cracks in the chamber area and else where so be sure to mag the head.
What rpm range do you want the power to be at?

Yes, I'll PT and mag the head b4 any work.

I'm just looking for good average power and torque across a wide range. I don't plan on turning it much over 5k. An engine in this truck will spend the most time in the 1500-4000 RPM range.

I also don't want it sluggish from idle until boost comes on.

88F15088 · Post **#29** by **88F15088** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:53 pm

I figured I would post my results here for comparison.

1988 F150
S5-42 5 speed manual
MegaSquirt EFI with decent tune by myself
Electric fan
Hedman Headers
EGR delete
Smog delete
Full custom dual exhaust from collectors to x-pipe, two cats and two glasspacks
Everything else is stock

Peak HP: 128 HP
Peak Torque: 259 Ft-lb

deere114 · Post **#30** by **deere114** » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:54 pm

This somewhat verified my thoughts that proper headers are still worth some torque on a truck that has efi manifolds^^ making 260ftlbs at the tire where as a stock engine makes 260 at the flywheel. I wonder how much tq the megasquirt was worth though. I know I'm a completely stock engine with walker y pipe I was able to pull the same hill 10mph faster with my megasquirt tune over the stock ecu. It just felt snappier to drive to.

MD49F-150 · Post **#31** by **MD49F-150** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:16 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
sandboxer wrote:What hp/tq numbers did you come up with, pm? Please let us know if your client gets some dyno numbers.
Thanks

I moved from WA state before I had a chance to dyno the engine.
I was expecting 320 hp at 5200 rpm and 350 ft/lbs at 3600 rpm at the flywheel.
I will encourage the client to do a chassis dyno and report back.

How much did this or would a build like this cost?

pmuller9 · Post **#32** by **pmuller9** » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:34 pm

MD49F-150 wrote:How much did this or would a build like this cost?

This particular build was $7300 for everything including McCleod steel flywheel and Centerforce 11" clutch.

It gets 18 mpg at 70 mph (2400 rpm) highway and 15 around town.
It will break the tires loose in second gear (T18 Tranny) from 1200 rpm.

clintonvillian · Post **#33** by **clintonvillian** » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:23 pm

7300.00 ugh!

I've got several thousand in mine already. You can do a coyote swap for that kind of money. What's wrong with us?

pmuller9 · Post **#34** by **pmuller9** » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:00 pm

clintonvillian wrote:7300.00 ugh!

I've got several thousand in mine already. You can do a coyote swap for that kind of money. What's wrong with us?

Yes it defies logic and maybe therapy sessions are in order but it is a emotional decision that fills a need.

This particular build was performed by a college student for the learning experience and he also wanted his six to spank a Chevy 350 truck that his friend rebuilt all while getting better gas mileage than his friends Chevy truck.
It was a very carefully planned project that turned out as well and it gets more attention than a V8 transplant.

For a little more you can build a 300 six that will out perform the coyote crate engine.

88F15088 · Post **#35** by **88F15088** » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:39 am

pmuller9 wrote:For a little more you can build a 300 six that will out perform the coyote crate engine.

Care to share details?

Max_Effort · Post **#36** by **Max_Effort** » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:09 pm

A new Coyote crate, gen2, 435hp is $6800. Then $1500-2000 for the ECU and harness, then all other parts to get it installed into the vehicle and running right. A whole lot that really adds up. I’d say $12-15k for the swap.

You could junkyard swap it for less, but still an expensive and complicated proposition.
——————————-
For me, I just want something different. The easy way is to V8 swap the truck. Buy a donor truck... they’re rusty and cheap around here. Rebuild and hot rod the engine .... and go for it.

However I don’t want the same thing everyone else has. The truck is an old DPW truck with the 300-6 and it will be the bad ass DPW truck with a turbo 300-6.

To me, the turbo power adder makes a whole lot of sense on this engine. I can buy a lot of parts, put all work, to make maybe 300 HP NA, or easily exceed that with a turbo. (And make BIG torque numbers in the process)

I’ve been planning, estimating and expect to be around $3k in parts on my build, installed with engine management. I have the advantage of owning automotive machining equipment so I don’t have to sub out any labor except crankshaft work. And I can adapt parts. My biggest expense will be the engine management system. If I paid myself for labor... well, that would be a lot more expensive.

pmuller9 · Post **#37** by **pmuller9** » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:46 pm

Max-Effort
What have you decided on for connecting rods?

Max_Effort · Post **#38** by **Max_Effort** » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:35 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Max-Effort
What have you decided on for connecting rods?

I haven't yet.
A few thoughts are:

Stock, resized with ARP bolts and see how they hold up.

Tom Molnars small journal BBC Rod. Heavy rod tho. I would bush the pin end and use an SBC reverse dome piston, with a bit off the block deck.

6.2" SBC rods, piston guided.

pmuller9 · Post **#39** by **pmuller9** » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:52 pm

The stock 240 rods after I ground the forging lines off the beams and had the rods polished, shot peened and resized with ARP bolts weighed in at 714 grams.
The Molnar 6.385" BBC SJ rods are shown to weigh in at 716 grams. Not a problem with 5500 rpm turbo engine.

The only problem is when Molnar gets a few sets in stock they go quickly.

Post **#40** by **THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER** » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:51 pm

clintonvillian wrote:7300.00 ugh!

... What's wrong with us?

Folks are still building and flying bi-planes. Go figure.

Post **#41** by **woodbutcher** » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:18 pm

Yep.And they are still building and flying Pietenpol(?)home builts that are Model T and A powered too.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

Post **#42** by **THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER** » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:07 pm

OK wood,
I had to google pietenpol biplanes. There are some beautiful home builts out there. One more thing for my bucket list...

guhfluh · Post **#43** by **guhfluh** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:39 pm

pmuller9 wrote:We need others to report their combinations also.
I went first to get the thread going.

Suprised I never commented. My basic build list is in my signature, minus the Chevy 250 1.75 rockers, 38*@3800rpm timing, and Holley 600. The head is home ported also, and the manifolds "matched" for no lip wall to run into, but no big porting. I've posted my two dyno graphs on here before. It made 220whp max on a Mustang dyno with the above parts and 200whp max without the rockers, with the Edelbrock 500 and 32* timing. Both times through an oil bath air cleaner. I removed the cleaner once on the dyno with the Edelbrock, just to see and as expected, it richened up way too much, started missing and killed power a lot. Stock 85 bottom end with blowby...

Post **#44** by **THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:50 pm

I would have guessed 38* was too much. Was there a difference between that and the 32* on the dyno?

guhfluh · Post **#45** by **guhfluh** » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:00 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I would have guessed 38* was too much. Was there a difference between that and the 32* on the dyno?

Not that can be definitively determined. I "lost" 20hp with less timing, but also a different carb and I believe the rockers were stock also(maybe not, but can't remember), but also a different dyno and day. So, too many variables to say.

I have since went back to around 38* with the Edelbrock and stock rockers, but only really because timing seemed erratic once it hit the homemade stop with the light. I seem to notice some more seat of the pants power, but it's probably placebo. I do always run 93 octane and don't have detonation issues with it. From memory, it's still 32* around 3200rpm.

Phase3 · Post **#46** by **Phase3** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:21 pm

Research and test build
1996 f150 215k at time of build all stock, as far as i could tell, M5od and 8.8 3:31 gears 31x10.50x15 mickey thompsons reg cab long bed 4x4.
Started with sct pro racer advantage and verified the truck ran like stock. Deleted secondary air system, installed innovate wideband, autometer fuel press and boost gauge. Compression tested 165 on all. Welded manifold to accept he351cw turbo. Mount intercooler from 2001 powerstroke. 24 lb mustang injectors changed for 47 lb flex fuel f150 injectors eventually. Electric fan from 95 tbird. 180 degree thermostat. Advanced cam timing 4 degrees with cloyes adjustable set. On 3 blow off valve. 4 inch stainless exhaust no restrictions. Mustang 11 inch clutch. 12-14 lbs of boost. First dyno run was 6 lbs creeping to 12 lbs.

Phase3 · Post **#47** by **Phase3** » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:37 pm

Build in progress
Hot 240 turbo
1996 300 block, 1985 carbed head ported bowls, smoothed ports and chambers stock valves, c5ae 240 rods and crank, trw forged pistons @ zero deck, comp 268h and crane springs, 1024 head gasket and arp studs, same sct tune and 47 lb injectors, he351cw turbo and 01 powerstroke intercooler possibly shortened, 4 inch exhaust. Will be increasing boost until fuel pressure drops off. Shooting for 350+hp and 500ft lbs at tire with flatter curve than the 300 build. Will post dyno results this summer god willing.

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