Click Here -> Please Consider Making a PayPal Contribution to the FordSix Forum!
2019 Contributors:
NJwpod, 1strodeo, mightynorseman, maxtrux, 6d7coupe, broncr, Phase3, 68Flareside240, bmbm40,
mustang6, WorldChampGramp, justintendo, BigBlue94, ags290, motorsickle1130, Rooster, ousooner919, ethanperry
rzcrisis, DoctorC, jamyers, Motorboy, fastpat, Silverback280, chad


<<< New Site Update >>>

Cylinder bore finish

Moderator: Mod Squad

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Cylinder bore finish

Post #1 by Blairsville Ed » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:00 am

Most builders use a machine shop for the boring operation, however I’ve been doing my own boring for 35 years. I have a 1939 kwik way boring machine and a AN sunnen hone and a dial bore gauge. But.... most of my work has been with 2 stroke engines, so I want to make sure that I am up to speed, especially with moly rings.

Trying to bore from 4.032 to 4.040 is a gamble, so I’ll be honing all the way. 70 grit to rough and 280 to finish.
The plateau finish..... in the past, I would finish to size with the 280, ball hone with a 320 grit to perfect the cross hatch then run a 600 grit through about 7 strokes.
Is this a suitable finish for moly rings or is there another method that would be better?

User avatar
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
VIP Member
Posts: 6160
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:25 pm
Location: FRENCHTOWN

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #2 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:29 am

Are you using a block torque plate to hone? If not, regardless of the grit used, you will be ending up with square bores.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #3 by Blairsville Ed » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:52 pm

No torque plate.....
I’ll have to locate some square pistons.

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #4 by pmuller9 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:58 pm

A torque plate for a Chevy LS engine has a close enough bolt pattern but a different bore spacing so you might get one or two holes bored before moving the plate.
The plateau finish is good for moly rings.
Break-in is faster with less cylinder wear with the smaller peaks and the deeper valleys give good oil retention.

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #5 by Blairsville Ed » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:38 pm

I remember seeing a brand new 2 cylinder Evinrude block back in the 1980’s. It looked like the factory honed it with a 80 grit stone. I guess they planned on the rings wearing into the bore.

User avatar
68Flareside240
Registered User
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:52 am
Location: Selma, AL

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #6 by 68Flareside240 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:02 pm

Could someone remove me of my ignorance to the boring/honing/crosshatch in regards to the torque plate. I understand the premise that it needs to be done withe the block experiencing the load (probably not the right term) of a torqued cylinder head. But if I recall correctly, not long ago there was a discussion about torque plates and the materials made from, but I gathered it was a “well it would be nice to have one, but the only ones are custom and expensive, so it is what it is”.

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #7 by Blairsville Ed » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:10 pm

Maybe I’ll hone to 4.038, torque the head on and check the bores with a bore gauge from the back side to measure the amount of distortion.

User avatar
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
VIP Member
Posts: 6160
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:25 pm
Location: FRENCHTOWN

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #8 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:59 pm

You will see the greatest distortion near the deck surface, each of the areas around the bolt holes being dimpled outwards. Of course this is where you would want it least as it is where the greatest pressure build-up is. That is one reason modern engines use head bolts anchored to the bottom of the bores, not near the deck.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

sdiesel
Registered User
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:33 am
Location: NW Oregon,Buxton currently

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #9 by sdiesel » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:06 am

there is a hillbilly method that was detailed to me by my favorite machinist. protecting his reputation , which is considerable, i will state that he did not endorse this but he did say that it worked as a torque plate. The method was a stack of heavy washers under a head bolt torqued to spec. This simulated the pull the bolt has on the block, and remedies the distortion created when honing without a plate.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

arse_sidewards
Registered User
Posts: 868
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #10 by arse_sidewards » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:19 am

sdiesel wrote:there is a hillbilly method that was detailed to me by my favorite machinist. protecting his reputation , which is considerable, i will state that he did not endorse this but he did say that it worked as a torque plate. The method was a stack of heavy washers under a head bolt torqued to spec. This simulated the pull the bolt has on the block, and remedies the distortion created when honing without a plate.



Next time I visit my parents property I'm gonna do this trick on the bare block I left sitting there and slap a dial indicator on and see what it says.

Edit: if I remember.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

drag-200stang
Registered User
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:10 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #11 by drag-200stang » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:20 am

On a 200... I find that the bolt like pries the top of the cylinder inwards (away from the the bolt), by the bolt making the bore smaller and starting about a an inch down by the bolt, to about center it pulls the bore toward the bolt a lot making the bore larger...Not much happens 90 degrees to the bolt.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #12 by Blairsville Ed » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:43 am

I have some 1-5/8 Blanchard ground steel plate. It’s 6” wides x 20” long. I could cut a pieces and bore a hole through it and drill 4 bolt holes. I could make it to cover 2 bores, maybe 3. Is it worth the effort? It would take a while with a 1 hp Bridgeport.

User avatar
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
VIP Member
Posts: 6160
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:25 pm
Location: FRENCHTOWN

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #13 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:52 am

Blairsville Ed wrote:I have some 1-5/8 Blanchard ground steel plate. It’s 6” wides x 20” long. I could cut a pieces and bore a hole through it and drill 4 bolt holes. I could make it to cover 2 bores, maybe 3. Is it worth the effort? It would take a while with a 1 hp Bridgeport.


I guess that depends on how much you value your time. Before that I'd see how much B-H-J gets for a real one. One sold on ebay a while back - for $250.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #14 by Blairsville Ed » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:22 am

Any idea how much dimple out there would be?

User avatar
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
VIP Member
Posts: 6160
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:25 pm
Location: FRENCHTOWN

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #15 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:52 am

Enough to unseat the rings from the bores in the last inch of travel. Somebody had a post up recently showing a pic of this. I'm guessing a couple of thou. Don't remember from work. We used more refined measuring instruments than a dial bore gage to display the numbers.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #16 by Blairsville Ed » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:20 pm

Maybe rough hone to 4.037, install and torque the head, finish hone from the back side.
The Mercury outboards had some headless blocks that had to be hone from the bottom.

User avatar
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
VIP Member
Posts: 6160
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:25 pm
Location: FRENCHTOWN

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #17 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:51 pm

I don't see how you could get an even crosshatch all the way to the top of the bore.


[EDIT: I just had a thought. The main bearing webs prevent you from honing from the bottom up, no?]
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #18 by Blairsville Ed » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:37 pm

The portable Sunnen AN hone head and u joint should clear the webbing. The stones can be retracted easily.
I’ll have to experiment a bit.
The bore distortion from the head bolts is concerning.

Any idea what the bores looks like at 180 degree temperature?

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #19 by Blairsville Ed » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:15 pm

Sunnen has a great article on honing a blind hole.
Last edited by Blairsville Ed on Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 3517
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:48 pm

I used ZGS rings in the last 300 without using a torque plate.
Normally I see less than 1% leakdown with ZGS rings but this 300 showed 2% across all 6 cylinders.
The owner hasn't done a leakdown since but I suspect the rings have removed what little distortion there was.

The 300 six bolt holes are a considerable distance from the bores plus if I remember correctly the blind hole bosses are cast as part of the outside wall rather than the cylinder wall.
My spare block is in storage so would you please verify that for me.
Thanks

54-4x4
Registered User
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:51 pm
Location: Valemount,B.C.

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #21 by 54-4x4 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:02 pm

Interesting topic here.Could a cylinder head be used as a torque plate if the cylinder bores were scribed on the head then removed from the block then machine the cylinder bores in the head?I have a couple of heads that have cracks in the exhaust valve seat area that may be useful as a torque plate.

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #22 by Blairsville Ed » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:13 pm

I’ll check my block for the head bolt hole location.
What grit honing stones were used for the ZGS rings?

A junk head could be machined to work as a torque plate.

I will check my bores with and without the head torqued on after I hone to 4.036. I’m wondering if my 51 year old block needs it.
I’m currently trying to come up with my honing strategy. After seeing my bores with 7000 miles on the engine and only the deeper hone marks still showing.
My current thinking is a 70 grit followed by a 600 grit followed by a 120 ball hone run in the opposite direction followed by the 600 grit.
It would be a deeper valley plateau with chrome rings.
I welcome comments and criticism.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9190
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #23 by bubba22349 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:57 pm

:hmmm: as an experiment why not check the bores both with and without head torqued down before you hone it. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

sdiesel
Registered User
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:33 am
Location: NW Oregon,Buxton currently

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #24 by sdiesel » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:42 pm

Well enough. who has the tools time to build a plate that we can rent?
Essentially it would be rented for the cost of making the plate; shipped directly to the machine shop in question, and when returned the rental fee refunded minus 5% or so for the trouble....
any takers?
im not able to see anything oonline that will substitute effectively for a steel plate for our engines.
machining a junk head is intriguing but will it be worth it?
even so if a fellow could make up one or two... is it a complicated process? i would think not but i know nothing about this kind of work.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #25 by Blairsville Ed » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:56 am

I’m still wondering if a torque plate is needed.
I’ll be checking the block that I have by torquing the head on after the rough honing is done. I’ll paint cylinder #1 and #4 with machinist red dye and do a light honing pass from the back side as well as checking with a dial bore gauge.
I’ll post what I find.

arse_sidewards
Registered User
Posts: 868
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #26 by arse_sidewards » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:02 am

sdiesel wrote:Well enough. who has the tools time to build a plate that we can rent?
Essentially it would be rented for the cost of making the plate; shipped directly to the machine shop in question, and when returned the rental fee refunded minus 5% or so for the trouble....
any takers?
im not able to see anything oonline that will substitute effectively for a steel plate for our engines.
machining a junk head is intriguing but will it be worth it?
even so if a fellow could make up one or two... is it a complicated process? i would think not but i know nothing about this kind of work.


The hard part is that the part 24" long and you need to maintain a high level of flatness over the whole thing which makes the kinds of mills most of us own inappropriate for the task and the sheer size makes scraping a massive pain which leaves surface grinding but the 24" length puts it well outside the range of your typical 18" travel grinder so then your option is to farm it out to a "real shop" with a modern CNC in good condition but that would cost more than getting a block that doesn't need to be honed.

There's a 36" surface grinder I've been eyeing specifically for 300 stuff but I'm up to my neck in projects already.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

drag-200stang
Registered User
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:10 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #27 by drag-200stang » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:17 am

It is probably not necessary for most builds.
I build my engines, like I will be racing the guy that stole my girl friend... So I use one.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

User avatar
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
VIP Member
Posts: 6160
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:25 pm
Location: FRENCHTOWN

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #28 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:34 am

It is at this point that I am going to have to 'fess up to being The Devil's Advocate. The discussion originally centered around cylinder bore finish, before I side-tracked it on to a discussion about honing plates.

It was my way of pointing out that the surface finish of the bore walls may not be a dominant factor in piston / cylinder wall performance on a 300. Sure, a nice two-stage plateau hone job is desirable and many manufacturers have now turned to this process on new engines. With better block design and modern diamond hone techniques this is possible on a grand scale. Using honing plates on a grand scale is NOT possible, even though its benefits are well proven. If you want good surface finish on a 300 you can do the two-stage hone job. Who knows. It may help reduce emissions and improve ring seating on break-in and even help reduce oil consumption. But after you bolt everything together bore distortion could play as big a role as wall finish. That is especially true on our engine that clamps the head to the deck surface and uses old tech large (stiff) non-conforming rings.

This discussion seems analogous to the one about using longer rods on a rebuild intended for daily usage in a truck. Or re-designing the cooling system. It matters little. It is a solution in search of a problem. These engines are noted for going 100s of 1000s of miles as built. While an academic discussion about such matters is fun and enlightening spending a bunch of dough to correct these "problem" areas doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I do take my block machinist a honing plate whenever I get a block done. But I trust his judgement on which honing technique is best for the intended use of the engine - race or street. And I suspect that once the 300 gets through the break-in period the original surface finish on the walls will have less effect on cylinder sealing than the induced bore distortion. Just my opinion.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

User avatar
MechRick
Registered User
Posts: 908
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:43 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #29 by MechRick » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:13 pm

Evidence of bore distortion:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GXTVw ... rSu6g0jIaJ

You can see where the crosshatch has been worn away by the rings. Obviously the deck and bore distorts a bit. Notice it's away from the thrust side of the cylinder wall, where you expect to see the most wear. This took 100,000 miles to wear to this level, and the engine had great ring seal and compression.

I think the intended usage and parts used dictate the need for a torque plate hone. A race engine that will use very light tension rings and accumulate very few miles probably should be torque plate honed. A street engine that uses standard rings and will accumulate 30-40,000 miles quickly? Maybe not so much.

There are other ways to distort bores. The last engine I had torque plate honed, I torqued a water pump to the block before dropping it off at the machine shop. I would have torqued a bellhousing to it too, if I had one.

Look at the bright side. At least we are not dealing with small block Chevies.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #30 by Blairsville Ed » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:28 pm

I just finished my honing test.
I started by installing and torquing the main bearings and honed the cylinders to 4.036, straight and round to .0002.
Next, I installed and torqued the head with a head gasket.

I used a Bore gauge through the bottom. It showed out of round at .0004 at the top 1.25 inches BUT the bore in this area was 4.0374 !! The top 1.25 inches had opened up .0014. A little less right at the deck.
I put red dye in one of the cylinders and ran my hone through the back side for a couple of turns. It verified the opening of the bore on top with the camshaft side of the block opening up the most.

Edit: I did this with the valves not installed. Will the valves with the springs impart more distortion?

User avatar
MechRick
Registered User
Posts: 908
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:43 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #31 by MechRick » Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:57 pm

Nice to back up our assumptions with hard numbers. Thank you for taking the time.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

sdiesel
Registered User
Posts: 849
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:33 am
Location: NW Oregon,Buxton currently

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #32 by sdiesel » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:16 am

conerning torque plates.
it's obvious that these are useful and, if readily available, would add considerably to the fit and finish of a well-assembled block, falling under the "why -not " category.


thusly said, can a torque plate be made that covers just 2 cylinders or 3 at one time?
addressing the size issue and the machine not built to work on longer pieces.

a Quick and dirty type of solution to a problem that haunts those of us who are concerned with the details of engine function.
personally, if the procedure is allowable, if it is feasible (even marginally) and i am in a position to take advantage of it then i will. i beleive everyone else would do the same.
parts assembly; getting and using the most modern technology that will work seems to be a sound practice.Even the cost associated with the upgrade in quality and design of modern parts, is sensible.

not to mention the personal satisfaction. (and the vague dissatisfaction of knowing you could have done just this one thing more)

In my life, i have the Ogre of a remote location failure of some part leaving me with a tow bill and cost of thousands to repair that motivates me to push for effective improvements to my engines.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #33 by Blairsville Ed » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:06 am

In my situation, I’ll be honing my block with the head, and bell housing installed and torqued. I’ll also install the valves and springs in the head before I put it on the block. I’ll be finishing the honing from the back side of the block. I’ve honed some headless blocks in the past and I been researching honing blind holes on the sunnen website. A machine shop that is experienced in using a portable hone can do this. I don’t know if a particular shop would or what they would charge.
FTF ........thanks for bringing up bore distortion in this post. In boring 2 stroke outboards with a deckless design, head bolt distortion was not an issue but I now see the need in automotive blocks!

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #34 by CNC-Dude » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:24 am

Keep in mind, that in a perfect world, a torque plate should be used to achieve the best cylinder finish and minimize distortions. However, I would always use one for performance and race builds, there have been literally millions of engines rebuilt that did not get torque plate honed, and have given their owner great satisfaction for many years. But not having a torque plate can sometimes help determine what type of rings to use or not use because the wear in time may take longer to fully seal if the ring type is more sensitive to the bore shape due to distortion because a torque plate wasn't used.
Image

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #35 by Blairsville Ed » Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:19 pm

Excellent point.
Ring selection based on the amount of bore distortion expected, and will the rings seat and how long will it take to seat. That would affect the oil choice as well. If you expect a long break in, you might want to avoid synthetic oil for awhile.

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #36 by Blairsville Ed » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:40 pm

Another idea to consider......with the head and head gasket torque on
I’ll be bolting my bell housing on before the finish honing but I realized that I could stand the block up on the bell housing and fill it with hot water through the water pump opening. It would take multiple fillings to get the block up to temperature...... but I don’t know what size I would finish honing to. The bores would probably expand at 180 degree temperature. And shrink back at assembly temperature.
Any ideas?.. or is this just nonsense.

User avatar
Shorty
Registered User
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:30 pm
Location: southern Ontario, Canada

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #37 by Shorty » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:22 pm

should a water pump be torqued on too?
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

wallen7
Registered User
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:38 am

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #38 by wallen7 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:51 pm

Look guys you are grabbing at straws = I was taught by Ford engineers that if you were to wrap a tape measure around an engine or transmission when cold then get them to operating temperature that they could expand as much as an inch.

User avatar
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
VIP Member
Posts: 6160
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:25 pm
Location: FRENCHTOWN

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #39 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:01 pm

The Coefficient of Thermal expansion is 6.7 x 10e-6 or .0000067 per deg F. So lets assume that tape measure wrapped around an engine is 10 ft long. A 200* rise in temp will lengthen that tape measure (assuming the tape itself does not expand at all when placed against the engine) by 120" x 200* x .0000067/* = 0.161"
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

Wesman07
Registered User
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:00 am

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #40 by Wesman07 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:44 pm

I guess not all engineers are created equal. Thanks for putting that one to bed.
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

User avatar
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
VIP Member
Posts: 6160
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:25 pm
Location: FRENCHTOWN

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #41 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:03 pm

And just for grins, if you back calculate how much temp rise you would need to get that tape to read an inch longer - again assuming the tape temp itself does not change - you would need an engine temp rise of roughly 1244*F. I guess you could say you would have glowing results.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #42 by Blairsville Ed » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:58 am

My thinking,( correct or incorrect.........if torquing the head bolts distorts the bore at room temp, would the added pressure of expanding metal increase the bore distortion?

drag-200stang
Registered User
Posts: 1124
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:10 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #43 by drag-200stang » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:03 am

Shorty wrote:should a water pump be torqued on too?

Might as well do main caps, motor mounts, opps engine mounts, lifter cover, coil and fuel fuel pump too.
I did the hot water thing one time using a block heater,the type that goes in the heater hose.
Decided it was not worth the effort and that he can have her if that's what it took :wink:
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

Blairsville Ed
Registered User
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:39 pm
Location: North Georgia

Re: Cylinder bore finish

Post #44 by Blairsville Ed » Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:47 am

It might be more important if you were using thin, low tension rings.

Sunnen had an article where the block temp was raised to 120 degrees before honing. They indicated a .001 enlarging of the bore at the deck. That’s what I found with room temp head torquing. I may have to test this by heating up my block and checking with a bore gauge. I’ll report what I find.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JPierce, wallen7 and 16 guests