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serpentine belt conversion

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sdiesel
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #51 by sdiesel » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:09 am

arse_sidewards wrote:With the 300 we're really spoiled with how good the belt routing is. We can get close to 180deg wraps on everything with no extraneous idlers and no components hanging way off in space.



now, are u referring to V belt or serp?
one massive drawback to v is the limited amps it can pull when the alt. is working hard.
I have heard that a dual V is good for 90 amps max.
unimportant on a car, but a winch....
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Shorty
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #52 by Shorty » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:54 pm

unimportant on a car, but a winch....


or a snow plow.....
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #53 by guhfluh » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:34 pm

sdiesel wrote:
arse_sidewards wrote:With the 300 we're really spoiled with how good the belt routing is. We can get close to 180deg wraps on everything with no extraneous idlers and no components hanging way off in space.



now, are u referring to V belt or serp?
one massive drawback to v is the limited amps it can pull when the alt. is working hard.
I have heard that a dual V is good for 90 amps max.
unimportant on a car, but a winch....
My single V was good for about 90A max. My double V has no trouble with my 130A 3G alternator. The single worked when tight, but slipped as soon as it stretched hardly any and would stretch enough to slip fairly quickly. Only under higher amperage load though.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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jgregg13
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #54 by jgregg13 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:06 pm

So after showing my belt routing earlier here without the AIR pump and the interference with the lower alternator bolt I went to pick-a-part to get a 3G alternator to replace the 2G with its bad reputation. I picked an alternator from a '92 Mercury Sable 3.0L. It had a 5 groove pulley so I used the 6 groove one from my old alternator and I had to clock the front housing 120 deg. to get the electrical connections accessible. This alternator uses the larger mounting pattern which the EFI mount bracket accommodates and the bonus is that the belt now clears the lower bolt without modification.
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #55 by guhfluh » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:48 pm

jgregg13 wrote:So after showing my belt routing earlier here without the AIR pump and the interference with the lower alternator bolt I went to pick-a-part to get a 3G alternator to replace the 2G with its bad reputation. I picked an alternator from a '92 Mercury Sable 3.0L. It had a 5 groove pulley so I used the 6 groove one from my old alternator and I had to clock the front housing 120 deg. to get the electrical connections accessible. This alternator uses the larger mounting pattern which the EFI mount bracket accommodates and the bonus is that the belt now clears the lower bolt without modification.
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Did you redrill the mounting holes or were they already cast there?

I'm also curious if I could use the older v-belt style alternator bracket instead and how the pulleys would line up, while just using the PS and AC bracket and associated other serp belt parts.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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jgregg13
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #56 by jgregg13 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:40 am

guhfluh wrote:Did you redrill the mounting holes or were they already cast there?

I'm also curious if I could use the older v-belt style alternator bracket instead and how the pulleys would line up, while just using the PS and AC bracket and associated other serp belt parts.


I didn't have to drill new holes in the EFI alternator mount as they are there already.

It looks like you could use the Carb engine alternator mount, but it puts the alternator much lower, so the serp belt routing would have to be different. Going clockwise from the crank to the alternator then water pump then tensioner then p/s then a/c then back to crank. The tensioner may have to be turned a bit counter clockwise. As the carb alt mount is adjustable, this may help with fine tuning the belt tension.

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #57 by guhfluh » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:49 pm

jgregg13 wrote:
guhfluh wrote:Did you redrill the mounting holes or were they already cast there?

I'm also curious if I could use the older v-belt style alternator bracket instead and how the pulleys would line up, while just using the PS and AC bracket and associated other serp belt parts.


I didn't have to drill new holes in the EFI alternator mount as they are there already.

It looks like you could use the Carb engine alternator mount, but it puts the alternator much lower, so the serp belt routing would have to be different. Going clockwise from the crank to the alternator then water pump then tensioner then p/s then a/c then back to crank. The tensioner may have to be turned a bit counter clockwise. As the carb alt mount is adjustable, this may help with fine tuning the belt tension.
Interesting. I hadn't thought about using that belt routing, but it seems like it would work well. I was concerned about the belt hitting the water pump pulley when going from the alt to the tensioner. I'm still not sure how offset the pulley may be front to back, but that may not be too hard to fix one way or the other with shims.

I already have a 3G alternator and A/C, but I need to add P/S and this would be nice to do and easy to source. The V-belt stuff is hard to source and a pain keeping tensioned on mine already.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

Catbert
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #58 by Catbert » Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:29 pm

Reviving this post as it has all the information I need except... is there any way to eliminate the AC through creative belt routing? My application (1941 International K2 getting a Ford 300 transplant) has deep inner fenders and I need all the room I can get at the front lower end of the engine. Eliminating the AC would be ideal and I don't think using an "idler pulley" in it's place (like the AC "delete kit" commonly used on the 5.0 V8) will net me the space I need. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #59 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:21 pm

Being a hobbyist metal shaper, might I suggest modifying the inner fender for adequate clearance if possible?
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

arse_sidewards
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #60 by arse_sidewards » Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:33 pm

Catbert wrote:Reviving this post as it has all the information I need except... is there any way to eliminate the AC through creative belt routing? My application (1941 International K2 getting a Ford 300 transplant) has deep inner fenders and I need all the room I can get at the front lower end of the engine. Eliminating the AC would be ideal and I don't think using an "idler pulley" in it's place (like the AC "delete kit" commonly used on the 5.0 V8) will net me the space I need. Any input would be greatly appreciated.


Just skip the A/C. On the trucks without A/C the belt went straight from the P/S pump to the crank. Simply buy a belt for a truck without A/C
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #61 by Catbert » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:24 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Being a hobbyist metal shaper, might I suggest modifying the inner fender for adequate clearance if possible?


It's not out of the question but I have no need/interest in maintaining the AC and would prefer to simplify the installation and reduce the number of moving pieces, if possible.

arse_sidewards wrote:Just skip the A/C. On the trucks without A/C the belt went straight from the P/S pump to the crank. Simply buy a belt for a truck without A/C


I have found routing diagrams for smog + AC, smog delete (with AC) and AC delete (with smog) but have not found a confirmed belt routing diagram for smog delete + AC delete. Here are diagrams of what I've found:

Image
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Does the last one look correct? Any idea what the belt length would be for the smog + AC delete as shown in the 4th diagram above?

Also, has anyone successfully modified the brackets to slim down their profile in absence of the smog/air pump and AC? On the engines that came without AC, is the bracket physically different or is it just missing the compressor?

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #62 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:54 am

I think I'd be inclined to use sketch #2, but run the belt from the bottom of the PS pump over the top of the H2O pulley. My reasoning here is that the H2O pump would then be driven first off the crank rather than last so it has less chance of slipping on a slack belt. You'd still have sufficient wrap on the water pump pulley.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #63 by Catbert » Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:29 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I think I'd be inclined to use sketch #2, but run the belt from the bottom of the PS pump over the top of the H2O pulley. My reasoning here is that the H2O pump would then be driven first off the crank rather than last so it has less chance of slipping on a slack belt. You'd still have sufficient wrap on the water pump pulley.


Let's see if I captured your feedback correctly.

Image

Is there sufficient clearance between the tensioner, power steering pump and water pump? Based on the "mock-up" shown below (thanks jgregg13 for the picture!) the space looks a little tight but I understand the photo is angled (line shown in blue represents section of belt in question).

Image

In fact, looking a picture of the EFI 4.9L in my garage, I have very close to 0 confidence that the belt will clear the tensioner when crossing from the bottom of the power steering pump to the top of the water pump:

Image

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #64 by jgregg13 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:19 pm

I share your concern for the clearance to the belt running close to the tensioner, especially if the belt is worn and stretched a bit. Respect to FTF Greg that the water pump drive is better his way, but either way there is good wrap on the WP and it's not unusual to have it after the tensioner. In my case i'll be using an electric fan, so that reduces the load on the WP pulley. It's probably a moot point (I'm often moot) but a better location for the tensioner would be after the alternator or if the AIR pump is used after it.
Mine is in pieces at the moment, so I can't tell you what the clearance would be for FTF's layout. I've also milled about 1.25" off the mounting bosses of the PS/AC bracket to tuck it in for engine compartment clearance in my old Chevy. You also might note the Saginaw PS pump from a Ford van (with the van mounting bracket) just so I don't go deaf listening to that Ford pump.

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #65 by arse_sidewards » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:23 pm

This is what I used to run and it worked fine. I deleted the power steering and made a different tensioner bracket and my belt runs on top of the tensioner and then to the crank. Basically the same thing though.

Image
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #66 by Catbert » Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:31 pm

jgregg13 wrote:I share your concern for the clearance to the belt running close to the tensioner, especially if the belt is worn and stretched a bit. Respect to FTF Greg that the water pump drive is better his way, but either way there is good wrap on the WP and it's not unusual to have it after the tensioner.


Agreed, I think it will be okay either way and I can certainly report back after I cross that bridge.

jgregg13 wrote:In my case i'll be using an electric fan, so that reduces the load on the WP pulley. It's probably a moot point (I'm often moot) but a better location for the tensioner would be after the alternator or if the AIR pump is used after it.


I also plan on using an electric fan as I may need to mount the fan forward of the radiator due to space constraints. The Ford 300 CI I6 is a bit longer than I had anticipated over the originally installed International 214 CI I6.

jgregg13 wrote:Mine is in pieces at the moment, so I can't tell you what the clearance would be for FTF's layout. I've also milled about 1.25" off the mounting bosses of the PS/AC bracket to tuck it in for engine compartment clearance in my old Chevy.


Can you share more about the steps you took to mill down the bracket? On the serpentine bracket the top-most through-hole mount has hardly 1.25" thickness to begin with - where did you take out the material? This may be of interest to me considering my space constraints.

jgregg13 wrote:You also might note the Saginaw PS pump from a Ford van (with the van mounting bracket) just so I don't go deaf listening to that Ford pump.


Are you suggesting using a Saginaw PS pump instead of the stock PS pump? Does the "van mounting bracket" replace the entire bracket assembly on the Ford 300 EFI engine or is it an added piece similar to the small AC bracket hanger? If it fully replaces the stock bracket, does it move the position of the PS pump significantly and if so in which relative direction(s)?

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #67 by Catbert » Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:49 pm

sdiesel wrote:I have done this conversion.
it works.
the f.i. head is different than the carb head.
on the driver side there will be one hole on the bracket, with no place to go.
it just hangs there in the air if ur using carb head.
as there is no threaded hole in the carb head to attach.

everything else works.
a Taurus fan is very close to the water pump, but clears and is a definite enhancement
there are impeller differences between years, I believe there is one pump that has impellers that pull from either rotation.
serps are quieter, will pull more amps, provide a spot for a/c, and a place to fab in another accessory if you choose to delete the air pump.
they are less troublesome from a bracket and bolt perspective.
the idler are weak. but good for 30k or so.
I've never broken a serp belt, but I'm careful with my maintenance. u can clearly see when they are losing patience with life.

brackets clear everything else on an old motor like dist . etc.
harmonic balancers.
we should all buy new good quality balancers periodically.
80 bucks or so.
I don't have any negatives to report with mine.


In case anyone wanted to see "one hole on the bracket, with no place to go". The first image is a 1979 and the second is an EFI. Missing this particular hole, although not ideal, is likely not fatal.

Image
Image

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #68 by jgregg13 » Sat Apr 18, 2020 4:56 pm

Here are photos, rough though they are, of my PS/AC mount milled down 1.25". My piece looks much different than yours catbert. This is the Saginaw pump version, but I think the Ford pump version I had originally was the same at the mounts to the engine. There may be more than one style of bracket. My Ford pump one was on a '94 F150. I exchanged it at Pick N Pull for the Van version with the Saginaw pump. The engine bay in your 'binder is like mine, narrow at the front. I've also mounted my engine 1" right of center for clearance. The engine offset to the right is quite typical on many Fords. I also had to trim the bracket for wrench clearance to the #1 spark plug.

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Image

Image

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #69 by Catbert » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:57 pm

jgregg13 wrote:Here are photos, rough though they are, of my PS/AC mount milled down 1.25". My piece looks much different than yours catbert. This is the Saginaw pump version, but I think the Ford pump version I had originally was the same at the mounts to the engine. There may be more than one style of bracket. My Ford pump one was on a '94 F150. I exchanged it at Pick N Pull for the Van version with the Saginaw pump. The engine bay in your 'binder is like mine, narrow at the front. I've also mounted my engine 1" right of center for clearance. The engine offset to the right is quite typical on many Fords. I also had to trim the bracket for wrench clearance to the #1 spark plug.


Thanks for the input. I might try to snag a van bracket and saginaw pump for a side-by-side comparison.

Good comment on shifting the engine to the passenger side. I've already secured a Ford 8.8" rear axle which has the differential shifted to one side by a few inches, doing the same with the engine may help to better align the drivetrain while also improving clearances in the engine compartment. What'd you use for an engine crossmember?

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #70 by jgregg13 » Sun Apr 19, 2020 11:09 pm

My motor mounts cantilever off the frame rails which are box section, so torsionally quite stiff as opposed to channel rails. The motor mounts are close to the Crown Vic suspension crossmember. I used the ford EFI mount on the right side but on the left side the EFI mount interfered with the steering shaft so I used a mount from an older carb engine with the rubber biscuit removed and plate added to accept a common Chevy mount witch is raised a bit so the steering shaft passes under it. I also am using a Dodge oil filter to clear the steering shaft as it is shorter than the Ford filter.

Image

Image

Image

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #71 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:03 am

Clever, ingenious solutions to your clearance issues. That's what hot rodding is all about.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #72 by sdiesel » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:58 am

There is a product that allows for a Saginaw pump to be fitted in place of a Ford pump when converting to hydo brakes.
It's online somewhere.
In a more adventurous past I once installed a Vickers pump in place of both the Saginaw or the Ford. Eventually , in jy case I returned everything to Ford vacuum assist.
But there are numerous options, available toget u to destination
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

arse_sidewards
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #73 by arse_sidewards » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:00 am

sdiesel wrote:There is a product that allows for a Saginaw pump to be fitted in place of a Ford pump when converting to hydo brakes.
It's online somewhere.


If you're talking about the Cardone reman'd P-Pump that came with a bracket on it allowing it to be a direct replacement for the C3 pump it was discontinued years ago
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

sdiesel
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #74 by sdiesel » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:41 pm

When I have better connection to internet, I'll try find it. Somei individual had devisd a fix for this issue but
Like the firewall clutch support plate this too may have faded into obscurity

The c3 is a fine pump if properly rebuilt and oil cooled I've never experienced problems, except leaks with age
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #75 by Lazy JW » Sat May 23, 2020 9:15 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I think I'd be inclined to use sketch #2, but run the belt from the bottom of the PS pump over the top of the H2O pulley. My reasoning here is that the H2O pump would then be driven first off the crank rather than last so it has less chance of slipping on a slack belt. You'd still have sufficient wrap on the water pump pulley.


During my 30 year sawmill career, 27 of which was as a saw filer, we operated many types of bandmills ranging is size from little 24" inch wheel resaws up to 7' wheeled headrigs.

The conventional practice was to always have the drive wheel pulling the saw through the cut in order to keep it from going slack on the cutting side.

While touring one very modern, high-speed sawmill in Oregon, I observed a 4-headed horizontal resaw that had every other bandmill turned around the opposite way in order to position them together more closely. Upon questioning the head engineer, he stated that they were just pulling the saw from the other side.

It worked perfectly well. So much for that old wife's tale.
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: serpentine belt conversion

Post #76 by sdiesel » Mon May 25, 2020 1:38 am

please explain why you want to remove or bypass the AC unit. i missed that part. there is an idler option that can fit in there if that space is available. you might be trying to eliminate that space due to engine box config?
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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