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Second 300 since August

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F-250 Restorer
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Second 300 since August

Post #1 by F-250 Restorer » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:09 pm

Hey guys, I've posted a few times, but never really introduced myself. I'm a 300 enthusiast who swapped out a tired 390 with a hp 300 for fuel economy and a lot of fun, just to see what I could make the 300 do. And I love it. It smokes at, I guess about 250 hp, which is not far from the stock 390 with a 2v.

Anyways, I hired a mechanic friend to help with the first 300, since it had been many years since I had rebuilt an engine. It was great, but slowly lost oil psi. Had a problem with a Clifford v. cover and polishing compound in the oil. Bearing got polished really nicely, and after just 700 miles showed copper. Swapped them and the new melling pump, with a h.v. pump. But the cam bearings did not get changed, and when I changed the engine, I had 3 psi at hot idle coming off the freeway. I should also say the along the way I changed the manual guage with a new Auto Meter guage, and got the same reading.

A week ago I swapped in another 300 with about the same build, bored .030, crank turned and polished .010 under, rods restored, bottom end balanced, pistons, rods, everything new, same head with sbc valves and p&p, .020 off the head and block. Each engine was machined by a different shop, and assembled by a different pro.

300 #2: After one week, and less than 500 miles, I have 7.5 psi at idle coming off the freeway. NO ONE can explain why. Everything was checked to spec. Present oil psi is with a Melling hv pump.

If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #2 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:31 am

I have no idea except to say that you were just really, REALLY unlucky. This is not normal.
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #3 by Lazy JW » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:54 am

Sounds like exceedingly bad luck to me too.

It appears that the only things in common with the first engine are the head, and probably the oil pressure sending unit/gauge, is this correct?

I cannot fathom how the head could be causing this problem since the oil system in a 300 sends oil to the lifter gallery first, and oil then goes to the head via the pushrods.

I recall that there is some sort of a plug behind the cam gear; doesn't this plug have an orifice for squirting oil onto the gears? I may not be remembering correctly as it's been a while since I had mine apart, but if that plug was missing it could sure cause some grief.

Did the second engine have good oil pressure upon initial startup?
Joe
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #4 by worken2much » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:26 am

F-250 Restorer

Well, first off my condolences for your bad luck. My son & I had a similar experience with a Dodge D-50 pickup. It was just built on a bad day. So know a bit how you feel.

Either the pump isn't making flow or the oil is escaping somewhere through a too large gap between components someplace. What parts, (if any) other than the head were re-used? In addition to the oil plug JW refers to, there are, I think two plugs at the rear of the block up around the rear of the cam. I can go look at a block if you wish to confirm. If these were omitted during assembly oil pressure would be affected.

I don't buy in 100% about the polishing compound being the culprit the first time around. I think it would take an awfully large amount of polishing compound, (handful?) to wipe out the bottom end in 700 miles. I don't care to name names here but have heard of one of the major brands of oil filters having issues collapsing internally thus greatly restricting oil flow. I know of one vintage racer that had his new 300 built by a very experienced and reputable shop go up in smoke from just such a problem. You may want to switch to a Wix or other top of the line filter and see if your oil pressure changes.

If no change occurs, I would try to test the oil pump for adequate flow by removing the filter, put a large drain pan under the filter mount. Or better yet, slip a hose over the oil fiter nipple so the oil is directed down to the drain pan. Pull the distributor and spin the oil pump with a drill. Maybe someone else here can chime in with how much oil would be pumped in say 10 seconds or so? Or maybe the melling folks have a specification of gpm at a given rpms? At least it would be a place to start. I realize that pumping against no pressure would be different than pumping through the engine. With a little thought perhaps a similar test could be rigged up with a new pump in a oil filled bucket, spun with the same drill as a bench mark? It would take some messing around but would help determine if oil flow is present or not.

It's just a bunch nuts & bolts, should be a way to figure the bugger out, best of luck.

Worken2much
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #5 by StrangeRanger » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:15 pm

First things first. Are you sure your oil pressure gauge is reading correctly?
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #6 by Harte3 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:31 pm

Quite the frustrating problem. I know this has been discussed to some length at FTE. I am wondering...will air in the line between the oil pressure sending unit and the gauge cause a bad reading similar to air in a brake or hydraulic clutch line cause the pedal to "mush"?

Also, the placement of the sending end of the gauge...is it installed on an adapter that moves it out from the block rather than well in to the oil passage?
'83 F150 300, 0.030 over, Offy DP, Holley 4160/1848-1 465 cfm, Comp Cam 260H. P/P head, EFI exhaust manifolds, Walker Y Pipe, Super Cat, Turbo muffler, Recurved DSII, Mallory HyFire 6a, ACCEL Super Stock Coil, Taylor 8mm Wires, EFI plugs.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #7 by mutt » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:44 pm

air in the oil pressure gauge line matters not- it will read the same. There IS a drilled insert in the back of the timig chest that squirts pressure oil right where the gears mesh. IIRC its a 1/4 in plug, the hole in it is quite small.
Were that plug to be left out, I could see quite the drop in oil pressure at idle.
copper backing in 700 miles? And they are smooth, not galled? Mystery here......
As per LazyJW, double check the gauge is functioning....Quality control is a forgotten step, it seems.
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #8 by F-250 Restorer » Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:57 pm

Thanks, guys, I guess I have a lot of questions to answer. If nothing else, I just want to find out what the heck is causing the problem. I feel like one of the ex's has put a voodoo curse on me or something. I've never had such a problem with an engine. At this point I don't give a darn (almost) about the $, I just want to KNOW.

Let me start here. I know something went through the first engine's oil. Here are some photos of the bearing I took out after 700 miles, clevite 77 bearings. When I did pull the engine, the new mains, rods, and old cam bearings looked great! And that irked me to no end, because I expected to see the cam bearings showing copper like the original mains and rods had. The photo below is a couple of the rod bearings I replaced.

<a href="http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/?action=view&current=P1010264.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/P1010264.jpg" border="0" alt="rod bearing showing copper"></a>

Below is a shot of the main bearings I took out of the original engine after only 700 miles. *I did not replace the rear main because I didn't want to deal with seal. When I pulled the first engine and took off the rear main, it was cherry!

<a href="http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/?action=view&current=P1010261.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/P1010261.jpg" border="0" alt="mains"></a>

Regarding the oil pressure gauge: [b]It is attached right to the block with two brass fittings. I will bleed the line to see if that helps. I originally had a cheap gauge, but when the problems started, I installed new line with a new AutoMeter guage, manual. I followed directions. I did not bleed the line. It is attached to block rear where the original sending unit used to be. The line is synthetic. [/b]

Regarding the timing gear oil plug/hole: I will check the block of the first engine to see if it is there.

[b]My thoughts: When the second engine was started and during the cam break in, I had great psi, about 40--50 psi, if I remember correctly. I still have that when I'm warming it in the morning. Of course as the engine warms up, the temp drops. The only thing that was not checked was the lifter bore. But they were tight on the new lifters...tight to the feel. What the mich. says, may be another thing.

Below is the new engine.

<a href="http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/?action=view&current=P1010295.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/P1010295.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/?action=view&current=P1010297.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/P1010297.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/?action=view&current=P1010287.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/P1010287.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #9 by F-250 Restorer » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:01 pm

Since day one I've used MotorCraft filters. Change is good. I will try the wix filters.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #10 by StrangeRanger » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:05 pm

Both of those brands are excellent as is Purolator.
Avoid Brand F
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #11 by F-250 Restorer » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:46 pm

<a href="http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/?action=view&current=P1010287.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu316/bobbyrogue/P1010287.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #12 by F-250 Restorer » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:14 pm

Let me try this again. The photo below is a set of rod bearings from the first 300, after only 700 miles. You can see by the striations that some pollutant went through the oil. When I pulled the engine I again checked the rods and mains, and they looked cherry, as did the cam bearings. That really bothered me. I thought the c. bearings would be marred and the cause of the low oil psi. So it remains a mystery.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #13 by F-250 Restorer » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:35 pm

I wanted to make sure the photos appeared. The next photo is of the mains from the first engine, after 700 miles. They were Clevite 77's. The psi in the first engine dropped within days. I replaced the mains and rod bearings, replaced the new melling oe pump with a new hv one, and the pressure went up for some time, then continued to drop.

Image

300 number two was machined by a different shop to all the same specs. It was washed and journals brushed by a highly skilled engine rebuilder, and assembled by me, with him looking over my shoulder and guiding me. Below are some photos of #2. At this point, I just want to know what happened. It seems the oil psi is holding at 10 psi when fully warm, and 7.5 when coming to a stop off the freeway. It is within range, but it doesn't leave much room for wear. I don't feel comfortable driving it. I should say that at 50--65 the psi stays at 40 psi.

The only parts that were reused were the oil pan, hv oil pump (which I opened and cleaned), oil p/u tube, pushrods, head, timing cover, v. cover.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #14 by Lazy JW » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:12 pm

F-250 Restorer wrote: ....... The psi in the first engine dropped within days............ replaced the new melling oe pump with a new hv one, and the pressure went up for some time, then continued to drop.
...................................................................................................................

The only parts that were reused were the oil pan, hv oil pump (which I opened and cleaned), oil p/u tube...........


Ahhhhhhh......... so the current oil pump was actually used in the original engine which was contaminated? If so, I believe you need a new pump.
Joe
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #15 by F-250 Restorer » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:57 pm

Hey Joe, thanks for responding.

I installed the pump I now have on the first engine when I pulled the pan and r&r'ed the rod and mains. Changed the oil and filter too when pump was installed. But yes, it did run on the first engine. I had checked the filter before installation, and thought that whatever had gone through the engine had been most likely trapped in the initial filter, which was tossed without cutting open. A mistake.

I opened the pump before installation this time, and it looked good. But it is a suspect.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #16 by Lazy JW » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:36 pm

This beginning to make sense now.
When a "normal" oil change is done, there remains at minimum a couple of pints of oil hidden inside the engine; this, coupled with the fact that some of the polishing compound residue surely had to remain stuck to the oily surfaces inside the entire engine gives reason to believe that your oil pump probably had to have been subjected to a lesser dose of the very substance that ate up those bearings.

Anything that could do that much damage to bearings in such short time would certainly hurt the pump as well. Your symptoms are exactly what would happen with a weak pump.
Joe
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #17 by F-250 Restorer » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:02 pm

whoa. I suppose that is possible, but there are steel gears in the pump. I can understand soft babbet being sanded down quickly, but steel gears? And wouldn't most of it be trapped in the filter?

I certainly appreciate the feedback. At this point I am willing to try anything.

I am going to make several changes, and will keep everyone posted about the results.

Btw, I checked the block of the first engine behind the timing gears. The is one plug at the cam galley. Also, there is a small squirter hole by itself in the block, which must be independent of any oil galley. There is no plug at that squirter hole, only an allen plug outside the timing chest, which I assume is used to clear that hole. The timing chest also receives oil run off from inside the lifter cover.

cheers.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #18 by Lazy JW » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:28 pm

F-250 Restorer wrote:...... I can understand soft babbet being sanded down quickly, but steel gears?


Yup. Believe it.

F-250 Restorer wrote: And wouldn't most of it be trapped in the filter? ........


Perhaps "most", but most certainly not "all". Even the best filters only trap a percentage of contaminants each pass.

Whatever it was that took out those bearings contaminated the ENTIRE engine; no way would I re-use ANYTHING from that engine without an EXTREMELY thorough cleaning.
Joe

Edit: When you have the pan down to change the oil pump you probably should check the rod bearings too. Just in case.
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #19 by F-250 Restorer » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:41 pm

Really? I just wouldn't have thought it possible. But what the ... heck do I know.

Rod bearings? Check them? Why? That scares me; not the thought of doing it, but of possibly finding the same senario.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #20 by 300Straightsix » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:02 pm

worken2much wrote: I don't care to name names here but have heard of one of the major brands of oil filters having issues collapsing internally thus greatly restricting oil flow. I know of one vintage racer that had his new 300 built by a very experienced and reputable shop go up in smoke from just such a problem. You may want to switch to a Wix or other top of the line filter and see if your oil pressure changes.


I actually had a similar problem, although I dont think it will help f-250restorer, I may as well share it.

My Chebby car typically has oil pressure around 60 psi at a hot idle. The local parts store didnt carry Wix filters, so i decided to try out a fram (never had heard anything bad about them, knew they had been around for quite awhile). After changing the oil and putting the fram on, the oil pressure never got above about 40 psi. I know thats still far more than needed pressure at idle, but an almost 20 psi drop is pretty significant. Anyways I don't think I will run a fram on anymore of my stuff, but maybe I just got a bad one. But that shows that the filter can have an impact on your pressure.
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #21 by Lazy JW » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:49 pm

F-250 Restorer wrote:Really? I just wouldn't have thought it possible. But what the ... heck do I know.

Rod bearings? Check them? Why? That scares me; not the thought of doing it, but of possibly finding the same senario.


Our oil pumps are of the two-gear type; the oil is carried around the gears and forced out to the engine. This requires a VERY close tolerance fit in order to be able to push against any significant backpressure, and if it loosens up just a small amount it simply will not make pressure because it is then easier for the oil to just slip around the gears and back to the input side.

What apparently happened to your engine is the polishing compound simply "lapped" the metal away. Actually, in the machining industry, there is a process known as "lapping" whereby a fine grinding abrasive is pushed into a soft material (such as babbitt) and then is used to polish, or "lap" a harder material. If that stuff got into your bearings enough to cause that much wear then it most certainly polished some material from the crankshaft as well.

Remember, your oil pump is AHEAD of the filter.
Joe
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #22 by F-250 Restorer » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:56 pm

I've learned something here: regarding the pump.

I'm really looking forward to dropping the stinking pan for the third time! The part that really bothers me is rear piece of gasket. I adhere it to the engine first, and dab silicone on the overlap tabs.

At this point I am confronted with a dilemma: Whether to use another hv pump, or the standard one, and whether to shim the pressure spring .120 to get 10 more psi, or just put it in as is. I would hate to do all that work and find the pressure is still low.

Other changes: I'm going to 'bleed' the line to the guage. I'm also going to install a second oil guage on the block for comparrison. Now that the engine is broken in, I'm going to put in 15/40 oil.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #23 by worken2much » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:50 pm

F-250 restorer

I'd replace the pump. That's too much work to take a chance on a suspect part a third time. I wonder if the relief is hanging up on the pump? Had it happen once on a 250 Chevy six. We replaced the pump, (had to pull motor) and all is well after two seasons of racing since. Oil pressure symptoms much like yours. Seems like the last HV Ford pump I bought was $35-$40?

JW is one smart cookie so hate to take a different view than his, but I have a hard time accepting that "some" polishing compound would yield results like you have had. IF it was a relief issue all along, (perhaps hung up from a small amount of grit?) wouldn't the poor oil flow result in trashed bearings too?

I suppose it sounds like a cobble job but doing a couple tests along the lines of what I suggested earlier may tell you what the condition fo the current pump is. Instead of leaving the suggested hose off the filter nipple wide open you could put in an orrifice to create some resistance to flow. Maybe a sort piece of round bar clamped into the hose with a 1/8" or so hole drilled through it. Check the old pump, then rig up a way to check a new pump as a comparison.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #24 by worken2much » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:52 pm

F-250 restorer

Sorry, I didn't read your post well enough. I thought you were going to clean and re-use your existing HV oil pump again. My mistake, my apologies for not paying better attention.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #25 by F-250 Restorer » Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:12 pm

Workin2much:

No problem. I appreciate you taking your time to try to help. I think I've learned about re-using parts. For the price of a new pump, I may have avoided this! But I thought oil pumps nearly indestructible. I even opened this pump and looked it over, had a qualified engine guy look it over, and we agreed, without checking the clearences, that it looked good. But never thought of this: "I wonder if the relief is hanging up on the pump?" Maybe you found something there. I do notice that whether doing 50 or 65 mph the psi stays at 40 psi.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #26 by Lazy JW » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:35 pm

worken2much wrote:..... I have a hard time accepting that "some" polishing compound would yield results like you have had.

So do I. And it is very difficult to troubleshoot on the internet so we can only go by what we are told, but SOMETHING really wiped out those bearings in a big hurry; now I have a hard time accepting that "some" polishing compound did that much damage too but it's all we have to go on at this point. Truth is, those bearings look to me like they were bad when assembled, but we are told that they were indeed new. Based on that information, it seems logical to me that the pump probably took some damage as well. Bleah.


worken2much wrote:....... IF it was a relief issue all along, (perhaps hung up from a small amount of grit?) ......

This is entirely possible. However
F-250 Restorer wrote: The psi in the first engine dropped within days. I replaced the mains and rod bearings, replaced the new melling oe pump with a new hv one, and the pressure went up for some time, then continued to drop.

If it were a "relief issue all along" on two separate pumps it seems as though it wouldn't have shown good oil pressure at first but rather the pressure would be low from the get-go.
Joe
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #27 by F-250 Restorer » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:22 pm

I'm frustrated and pissed beyond belief. I really can't believe all these problems ... with TWO engines!

The first engine: The first filter was tossed without examination. I did not know there was going to be a problem. I changed the breakin oil after 2 days of in town driving. After the oil change the pressure went below 20 psi at idle, and I started to get concerned. Then I smelled gas in the oil, but it was not showing a change on the dipstick. I r&r'ed the new fuel pump. I also replaced the Autolite 4100 rebuilt by pony carbs, with an Edelbrock 500. I again changed oil and filter, and went with 15/40. That bumped the psi for a bit. Right in here somewhere I changed the guage too, and went with an AutoMeter guage. I also ran a wire into the block, thinking it may be clogged. I tried to run an oil cooler for a trip I wanted to take. Psi dropped from 40 to 30 on the freeway. I removed the cooler, but the psi stayed the same.

When I got back I pulled the pan and ended up r&r'ing the mains and rods. You can see them in the photo. The build was done with new Clevite 77 bearing, .010 under on rods and mains. That is what I put back in. Except for the rear main, because of the oil seal. (When I pulled the engine, the rear main looked cherry). And get this: [b]Even though the pressure off the freeway at idle was 3 psi, without the lifters clattering!, the rods and mains looked good. I have not miched them yet though. Another surprise I got was that I thought the cam bearings would look scored since they did not get changed, but they looked fine!

[i]When I say that polishing compound went through the engine, I am guessing. I'm searching for an answer. It's been driving me whacko. I say polishing compound because up under the oil baffel on the v. cover is the only place I did not clean. And I had the Clifford cover sent out and professionally polished. I wish I knew what the heck went through the engine, [b]without affecting the cam bearings?????


Now I have a newly rebuilt engine with HALF the oil pressure of the tired 390 I replaced, and the timing gears knock!! Yes, completely new steel gears.

I am going to change the pump. I don't know yet if I will use a new hv pump, or a oe one and let my builder shim the spring for a 10 psi boost. I am also going to replace the noisy lifters. I am checking to see if any of them come a few thousandths larger. Yes, I will mich the bores. I am also going to bleed the guage. I may try to use the front tapped hole into the oil galley, rather than the rear one I am using now. I will also change to a Napa gold filter, which is made by Wix. While I have the pan off, I might pull the cam and change the timing gears which are driving me nuts.

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StrangeRanger
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #28 by StrangeRanger » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:35 pm

Are the gears knocking or whining?

The steel on steel gears have a distinctive sound but it isn't a cyclic knock it's more of a low frequency drone. If it truly is a knock, they have been damaged somehow, possibly by lack of lubrication -- which points to the plug with the orifice in it that JW has mentioned. Either that or one of them is chipped or nicked. If you can spot the nick, you may be able to stone it down to where the gears no longer knock as badly as they do now.

Cloyes makes a steel/aluminum set that is quieter than the steel/steel set.
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #29 by Harte3 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:45 am

Had a knock in my brand new engine...sent it back to the shop and they replaced the timing gear set...no more knock but I do have a nice turbine whine.
'83 F150 300, 0.030 over, Offy DP, Holley 4160/1848-1 465 cfm, Comp Cam 260H. P/P head, EFI exhaust manifolds, Walker Y Pipe, Super Cat, Turbo muffler, Recurved DSII, Mallory HyFire 6a, ACCEL Super Stock Coil, Taylor 8mm Wires, EFI plugs.

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worken2much
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #30 by worken2much » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:05 pm

F-250

I re-read your thread more carefully this time. I'm convinced it is the pump. If it were me, just for piece of mind, I would try to find a replacement pump by a different manufacturer. I've used Melling pumps with no issues ever. But am starting to wonder if perhaps they recently had a change in their in house process, or a shipment of out of spec components from a vendor. Unless I miss-read your posts again, both the pumps you had were by Melling. In no way am I saying that Melling pumps are bad. I've used them many times and have had nothing but top notch results. Rather, just to elimante one of the common denominators in both your low oil pressure situations I'd try a different brand. Lest anyone think I'm totally off my rocker, let me relate a couple cases below.

In the last two years I have run into component / material related failures in the equipment I sell for a living. One was due to out of spec. steel compression springs. One customer went from breaking 2 or 3 yearly ,(out of roughly 200 total) to breaking 1 or 2 daily. The springs at intial installation looked fine. After several weeks, (sometimes days), of operation they started to sag thus loosing the air gap between the coils. This resulted in coil bind & spring breakage. The wire that the spring was made from wasn't correct for the application. I had another experience this past summer with out of spec. steel wire for vibrating screens. Screens that should have run for 1500 hours or more fell apart in 100 hours or less. The material was far too brittle and snapped during operation. Again pointing to incorrect material for the item. Eventually it took a chemical analysis of the wire itself to prove that was indeed the case. I can't say for certain but suspect that there had been a switch to an offshore vendor by the manufacturer in at least one of these instances.

My nickels worth of free advice. In any event, hope you get your 300 woes behind you.

Worken2much
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #31 by F-250 Restorer » Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:15 pm

Workin2much--

Thanks for relating those stories. I think you are right, it would be a good idea to try a different brand.

I know that Sealed Power also makes one, so maybe I will try that brand.

In the next few days I will pull the v. cover and see how much oil I am getting to the valve train.

Even if the pump did LOOK good inside it, contaminants did go through it, and that could not have been good.

Kevin.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #32 by F-250 Restorer » Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:35 pm

StrangeRanger wrote:Are the gears knocking or whining?

The steel on steel gears have a distinctive sound but it isn't a cyclic knock it's more of a low frequency drone. If it truly is a knock, they have been damaged somehow, possibly by lack of lubrication -- which points to the plug with the orifice in it that JW has mentioned. Either that or one of them is chipped or nicked. If you can spot the nick, you may be able to stone it down to where the gears no longer knock as badly as they do now.

Cloyes makes a steel/aluminum set that is quieter than the steel/steel set.



The gears are knocking.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #33 by Lazy JW » Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:02 pm

F-250 Restorer wrote:.... Then I smelled gas in the oil.....

Hmmmm........ the plot thickens.

F-250 Restorer wrote: I tried to run an oil cooler for a trip I wanted to take. Psi dropped from 40 to 30 on the freeway.....

Were there any mud dauber nests in there?

F-250 Restorer wrote:...... build was done with new Clevite 77 bearing, .010 under on rods and mains......

Did you actually measure or PlastiGage the clearance?

F-250 Restorer wrote:..... Except for the rear main, because of the oil seal. (When I pulled the engine, the rear main looked cherry)......

So the rear main miraculously avoided damage whilst the others got wiped out?

F-250 Restorer wrote:......the pressure off the freeway at idle was 3 psi, without the lifters clattering!......


Hmmmmm........

F-250 Restorer"}..... I am also going to replace the noisy lifters....... [/quote]

Hmmmmm........

[quote="F-250 Restorer wrote:
......I might pull the cam and change the timing gears which are driving me nuts.


I give up. Polishing compound, gas in the oil, quiet lifters, noisy lifters, oil cooler dropping pressure, cam gears knocking, re-used oil pump; there are just too many random symptoms and random corrective actions to really isolate anything.
Sorry,
Joe
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #34 by F-250 Restorer » Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:53 pm

You are speaking of two different engines. And yes, there are/were many things going on. I tried to solve the problem with the first engine in many ways, as I'm sure you would have. It must, however, be very confusing to read about it, without being able to ask questions immediately for clarification.

The new engine seems to be holding psi, although it is lower than I would like, but it is livable. The issues I have with this engine are the lifters clatter (anti pump-up lifters), and the timing gears knock. It is as simple as that.

On the first engine all the bearings got wiped except the rear main. That is correct.

On both engines the mains and rods were checked, and were all within tolerances.

Thanks for any help you may or may not have given.

But that is it! I'm done talking about it. It is getting me nowhere. I'm done.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #35 by balaso » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:59 am

Stick with it! Sometimes you just need to step back for a little bit so that you may see the problem clearer. Take a break from it for a little bit, then get back to it!

-B

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #36 by F-250 Restorer » Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:15 pm

Hey guys--

Engine #2 is doing fine. The oil psi is holding. I now have about 16-18 psi, hot, in gear at idle. And that is fine with me, as long as it doesn't continue to drop as the #1 did. Today I checked the flow to the valve train, and had loads of oil flow there. I also installed a second oil gauge, this one in the engine compartment. There are two threaded sending unit plugs in the main oil galley, just below the lifter cover. For the engine compartment gauge, I came off the plug between the dizzy and the p. steering bracket, just below the lifter cover. On that one I only have about 8" line, and I read 5 psi more than the gauge in the cab. That makes me feel good.

What I don't like with this engine:[b] The non pump up lifters clatter, so I am going to replace them with Isky brand, like I had in the first engine.

I also have a knock in the timing gears. From other members I have heard this is a fairly common problem. I'm considering replacing the gears with a Cloyes set. Maybe in the near future.
[/b]

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #37 by Lazy JW » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:01 pm

F-250 Restorer wrote:....... The non pump up lifters clatter, so I am going to replace them with Isky brand, like I had in the first engine.....

Mercy sakes alive! Perhaps you may want to consider just using some stock pieces.

You didn't perchance modify the oil pan or pickup tube did you?
Joe
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #38 by F-250 Restorer » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:11 am

The isky lifters I used in the first engine worked great. I have used them in 3 engines, and they all worked perfectly.

"Did I say I modified the pan and p/u tube? No."

Thanks for your help and consideration. I was not asking anyone to solve my problems for me. I was only asking to be pointed in the right direction, and that is what you all tried to do. Thanks.

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Re: Second 300 since August

Post #39 by Panama Ron » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:43 am

After reading all this,I wouldnt rule out the possibility that one of your EX-s put valve grinding compound in your motor,
when you wasnt looking,is this possible? did you leave the truck in an area where this could of happened?Ive heard of this same thing happening to another person,on a blue 4 banger Ford ranger.First sugar was dumped into the gas tank,this didnt create the desired result,so then then valve grinding compound was used,All while the poor Schmuck was flipping burgers at Shoneys Theres no fury like a woman scorned!I knew both of these people that this happened to.
First 300-6 Ford Ive ever owned,But lots of others.

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