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600 hp on a 300

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mrdjfalcon
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600 hp on a 300

Post #1 by mrdjfalcon » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:50 pm

has anyone ever had a 300 make 600hp. if so how. i read a article that claims you can make a 300 make 600 hp.. i would assume it would have 13to 1 comp. what else would you have to do to the motor to do this . any ideas thanks dj

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Austin
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #2 by Austin » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:53 am

i dont think 600hp would be possible they just cant handle the rpm needed for that much hp

shoot for somthing a little more realistic like 400hp and to get there your going need some sort of forced induction like a supercharger or a turbo, i perfer turbo
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #3 by bubba22349 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:09 am

has anyone ever had a 300 make 600hp. if so how. i read a article that claims you can make a 300 make 600 hp.. i would assume it would have 13to 1 comp. what else would you have to do to the motor to do this . any ideas thanks dj


Start with lots of money and keep adding more. What would use the 600HP in?
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #4 by StrangeRanger » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:31 am

That's entirely possible and as pointed out grossly expensive. The guys running 300s in Comp Eliminator are probably making way more than that. For some reason the number 750HP sticks in my head. Basically they replace everything except the block with high dollar aftermarket stuff
1996 F-150 (tow missile)
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1982 Tiga Formula Ford (SCCA racecar)
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #5 by MaxRat » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:32 am

for ease of doing...you'll need a boosted application...

Steel crank, expensive rods, expensive pistons, oring'd block, high dollar valves and valve train...

turbo or dual turbo and as much boost as it will handle...

there are people out there running 1100cc engines with 35psi boost running 650hp so yours isnt out of line but boosted is going to be the best way to get there

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #6 by Buddy Rawls » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:08 am

To acheive 2hp per/cid (naturally aspirated) takes a substantial amount of airflow. there are two pieces of the puzzle. 1) enough airflow capability thru the motor 2) airflow versus velocity versus rpm

A small stroke/big bore motor that can turn 8500-10000 is one thing, but a small bore/long stroke that turns 7000 may be an non-obtainable ends. All the pieces of the puzzle have to fit.

To acheive 2 hp per/cid on a 300 with a conservative rpm (say 8000) is going to require about 325cfm (28") of inlet capability. I am not ultra familiar with these motors, but am reasonally certain a stock (240/300) configured head is not going to be capable of flow much over 250 cfm, and that is with a seriously professionally worked head. A typical nice porting seems to really top out in the 220-240 region. This is why you see the sectioned 4V cleveland heads (which can achieve 320+ cfm easily with nothing major) and other flow capable crossflow designs. Then comes the rotating assembly with lightweight pistons and all the super nice bells and whistles (cranks/rods/etc) and whatever special block prep and strengthening is required, and on top of that a whole new intake manifold becuase none of the off the shelf come near the flow capability required. Camshaft will be in the range of 280 (.050) on the intake and static compression 13+.

Airflow is the primary driver. This is where forced induction can really make the difference. Forced induction sort of takes the inlet charge draw out of the picture by having a pressurized surplus of charge ready to fill the cylinder when the valve opens. Forced induction can fill the cylinder far quicker and easier than ever possible in a naturally aspirated setting. Without airflow and without rpm, forced induction is the key. then it becomes a juggling game of optimizing pressures.
Last edited by Buddy Rawls on Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
It doesn't run quick at the track, but it gets long stares wherever it goes.
Never in a million years did I think I would have an antique hot rod truck, much less with its own name emblazoned on the front fender and a freakin' six cylinder for power;
but it is a Ford, it is old, and it is definitely one of the funnest vehicles I have driven.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #7 by StrangeRanger » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:15 am

Most of the people running 300s in Comp Eliminator are running the AJ crossflow aluminum cylinder heads. Extremely trick, extremely expensive but they do flow a ton. The guys in Econo-Dragster and Econo-altered (talk about an oxymoron) have to run the stock head but they prep the devil out of it. I'm sure FTF can provide guidance on the exact mods but the simple version of list is "everything"

None of this is even remotely applicable to the street. The only way to get that sort of HP in an even remotely streetable mode is with forced induction. There are limits to that as well since the 300 doesn't really have the stoutest head bolt pattern in history.
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #8 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:22 am

StrangeRanger wrote:...they replace everything except the block with high dollar aftermarket stuff


No, even the block needs to be replaced. One team I talk with is on the verge of building / machining their own billet block to overcome shortcomings encountered with their current extremely modified specially cast blocks they are currently using.
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #9 by StrangeRanger » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:59 am

And what does the specialty cast unobtainium block cost? I don't even want to think about the expense of whittling one out of billet.
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #10 by CNC-Dude » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:56 pm

LSM in Michigan has made a Cheby inline 6 billet block for Rob Harrison's Comp car. Its over $10K for the block.
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #11 by 6pack » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:18 pm

600HP is possible. Takes a real good aluminum head and some very good internals.
People will talk, but a certain few give the rest something to talk about......

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Re: treadwell question

Post #12 by Buddy Rawls » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:31 pm

[quote="StrangeRanger"]Most of the people running 300s in Comp Eliminator are running the AJ crossflow aluminum cylinder heads...quote]

My officemate's family runs a E/A Comp Eliminator, and race against and know the Treadwells. I was looking at a photo from around '03/'04 and Glenn's car was using stock configuration head (12 port) head. Beyond '04 or so, its a huge crossflow head.

My question is, what 12 port head was he using prior to the crossflow swap?
It doesn't run quick at the track, but it gets long stares wherever it goes.
Never in a million years did I think I would have an antique hot rod truck, much less with its own name emblazoned on the front fender and a freakin' six cylinder for power;
but it is a Ford, it is old, and it is definitely one of the funnest vehicles I have driven.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #13 by StrangeRanger » Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:07 pm

Good question. In Econo-Altered, I'm pretty sure it has to be the stock casting.
I thought I'd heard that Treadwell had gone over to the darkside and was running a GM LL8 4.2 OHC I6. That would explain the big honkin' aliminum head
1996 F-150 (tow missile)
1993 Mustang 5.0 (hot rod and auto-x monster)
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Re: treadwell question

Post #14 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:58 pm

Buddy Rawls wrote:
StrangeRanger wrote: Beyond '04 or so, its a huge crossflow head.

My question is, what 12 port head was he using prior to the crossflow swap?


Glen was using a highly modified 240 head. He is indeed running a GMC 4-valve head now but daughter Jenny is still using the 240 Ford motor on her dragster. He is one of the hardest working men - and nicest - in Comp racing.
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #15 by 64 200 ranchero » Fri May 03, 2019 8:37 pm

How is it that Kelly's car (does 10's) makes over 400hp with a 250 and people are saying that the 300 could not handle 600? Isn't the 300 way tougher than a 250?
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #16 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri May 03, 2019 8:43 pm

Several drag teams are making over 600 HP. It isn't the road most folks want to travel though, given the money, time and engineering effort involved. Do you want to make 600 HP? How much time and money are you willing to spend?
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #17 by 64 200 ranchero » Fri May 03, 2019 9:00 pm

I'm actually thinking about building one. I believe that I'm near the limit of streetable power with my 200. I'm looking at industrial 300's at the moment. If a 300 was destroked to a 240, would it be able to handle more rpm?
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #18 by pmuller9 » Fri May 03, 2019 9:06 pm

64 200 ranchero wrote:I'm actually thinking about building one. I believe that I'm near the limit of streetable power with my 200. I'm looking at industrial 300's at the moment. If a 300 was destroked to a 240, would it be able to handle more rpm?

Yes.
The 240 crank doesn't have the torsional harmonic problems the 300 crank has.
There is a lot of journal overlap so the 240 crank is very stiff.
The rod angle is also decreased by a large amount.

The main focus (and money) will be in the head and valve train.
Plan on running up to 7500 rpm.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Fri May 03, 2019 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #19 by 64 200 ranchero » Fri May 03, 2019 9:13 pm

The 240 crank probably wasn't available as an industrial forged steel unit as the 300 though. Would a forged crank be needed?
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Fri May 03, 2019 9:17 pm

64 200 ranchero wrote:The 240 crank probably wasn't available as an industrial forged steel unit as the 300 though. Would a forged crank be needed?

No.
The large amount of journal overlap makes the 240 cast iron crank very stiff and you can run it to whatever rpm you need to.
Plan on 7500 rpm.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #21 by 64 200 ranchero » Fri May 03, 2019 9:19 pm

I have seen someone on here who used epoxy to join 2 ls heads together. I was thinking of doing the same with 2 Edelbrock ls heads.
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #22 by 64 200 ranchero » Fri May 03, 2019 9:21 pm

Is the 300 block better than the 240, or is it the same exact thing?
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #23 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri May 03, 2019 9:25 pm

64 200 ranchero wrote:I have seen someone on here who used epoxy to join 2 ls heads together. I was thinking of doing the same with 2 Edelbrock ls heads.

Have you seen it run?
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #24 by pmuller9 » Fri May 03, 2019 9:25 pm

You can accomplish well over 600 hp with a well ported big valve 300 iron head using a turbocharger.
The 240 and 300 blocks are interchangeable. One is not better than the other.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #25 by 64 200 ranchero » Fri May 03, 2019 9:39 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
64 200 ranchero wrote:I have seen someone on here who used epoxy to join 2 ls heads together. I was thinking of doing the same with 2 Edelbrock ls heads.

Have you seen it run?

I have only seen pictures, it was a tri-power 2v Holley setup and custom header. It would be nice to see a video of it making a pass.
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #26 by 64 200 ranchero » Fri May 03, 2019 9:47 pm

60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #27 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri May 03, 2019 10:33 pm

64 200 ranchero wrote:https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?t=53911

6bangerbill, How did it run?
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #28 by Max_Effort » Sat May 04, 2019 8:52 am

Pat Nahan's car has to be making around 750 HP

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zzwmr3OAb3g

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #29 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat May 04, 2019 10:18 am

64 200 ranchero wrote:I'm actually thinking about building one... I'm looking at industrial 300's at the moment. If a 300 was destroked to a 240, would it be able to handle more rpm?

Yes the 240 will make max power approximately 1000 RPM higher than a 300 due to its shorter stroke. But it will not make more power - the peak HP output will be the same number as a 300, limited by the airflow capabilities of the cylinder head. If you're sucking through a soda straw it doesn't matter if you're trying to drink a pint of Guinness Stout or draining a swimming pool. You'll only be able to drink at the rate the straw permits.

There is nothing about an industrial 300 that makes it a particularly good candidate for a performance build. 'Cept some early ones had forged cranks. And cast iron thermostat housings.

When I switched to a crossflow head I immediately gained about 150 HP even though the basic short block under it was the same as when I was using the U-flow head.
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #30 by 64 200 ranchero » Mon May 06, 2019 3:47 am

Thanks frenchtown flyer for your input. I will take your advice and go with a 300 when the time comes. Is there a way to find out if a 300 has a forged crank?
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #31 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon May 06, 2019 8:51 am

Do you know what the chips look like when drilling into cast iron and steel? I read a post where one person removed the front damper and drilled a small spot in the front of the crank snout. A cast crank will give off powdery chips while a steel crank will give off curled slivers. He was able to determine the material by how the drilled chips looked. Clever
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #32 by CNC-Dude » Mon May 06, 2019 11:41 am

64 200 ranchero wrote:How is it that Kelly's car (does 10's) makes over 400hp with a 250 and people are saying that the 300 could not handle 600? Isn't the 300 way tougher than a 250?

They are using an aftermarket aluminum head. If you used one on the 300, you could possibly achieve that as well. But anytime you approach or exceed 2HP per Cubic Inch, the dollars that need to be spent increases as well to live at that power level.
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #33 by drag-200stang » Mon May 06, 2019 4:47 pm

I was making over 400 with a log head and less than 16 psi, yes I know that it does not make sense...I have put up time slips that reflects the hp claim.
After market pistons and rods.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #34 by 64 200 ranchero » Mon May 06, 2019 7:59 pm

drag-200stang wrote:I was making over 400 with a log head and less than 16 psi, yes I know that it does not make sense...I have put up time slips that reflects the hp claim.
After market pistons and rods.


I have been a fan of your engine for a long time. I believe that my engine could get to that level with a multi stage nitrous setup, but I'm still using the stock forged rods.
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #35 by drag-200stang » Mon May 06, 2019 10:00 pm

64 200 ranchero wrote:
drag-200stang wrote:I was making over 400 with a log head and less than 16 psi, yes I know that it does not make sense...I have put up time slips that reflects the hp claim.
After market pistons and rods.


I have been a fan of your engine for a long time. I believe that my engine could get to that level with a multi stage nitrous setup, but I'm still using the stock forged rods.

Thanks,
I think that you have done an excellent job with your nitrous setup.
Like P Muller said 600 hp would be doable, turbo with head work...Turbos are the easiest on the engine of all the power adders... But a bad tune can hurt an NA engine ,it can be engine destroying under boost...With today efi engine management systems that can be greatly reduced...Of course any power adder, high hp engine is going to need higher octane fuel under load , that is just how it works.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #36 by pmuller9 » Tue May 07, 2019 9:15 am

64 200 ranchero wrote:Thanks frenchtown flyer for your input. I will take your advice and go with a 300 when the time comes. Is there a way to find out if a 300 has a forged crank?

Are you looking at a 600 hp 300 six naturally aspirated or turbocharged?

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #37 by 64 200 ranchero » Tue May 07, 2019 3:41 pm

I would use nitrous to help spool a turbo. I'd probably go with a fuel injection setup to make it easier.
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #38 by pmuller9 » Tue May 07, 2019 5:11 pm

Just a quick answer to your original question.
To get 600 hp naturally aspirated takes above 7000+ rpm where the crankshaft torsional harmonics show up and breaks things.
The Ford 300 steel cranks were lucky to make 25 passes before breaking and the main caps have a tendency to crack also.
Destroking the crank to 3.75" helped with crank harmonics.
It also requires a different head, roller cam and many other modifications.

You can get 600 hp with turbocharging by 5500 rpm and even though the steel crank would be nice the iron crank will work also.
You can use a fully ported big valve iron head and a flat tappet hydraulic cam. Roller would be a nice option.
Aftermarket rods and pistons are recommended.

A turbo with a 66mm compressor inducer would be needed to pump enough air for the job.
If you are going to spray for spooling then the turbine housing A/R ratio can be around 1.00

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #39 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue May 07, 2019 5:22 pm

At that power level a steel crank is a must.
I've been lucky. Mine have lasted thousands of runs w/o failure. Using mostly auto trans. With a stick - maybe not so much?
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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64 200 ranchero
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #40 by 64 200 ranchero » Tue May 07, 2019 8:44 pm

What bell housing would work to fit a 300 to a 65 c4 transmission? Did the pattern change at all throughout the years? My c4 is supposed to be able to handle 700hp according to the rebuilder.
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.80 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Dynomax muffler, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #41 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed May 08, 2019 7:25 am

ALL 240 / 300s have a SBF bell pattern.
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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #42 by Max_Effort » Wed May 08, 2019 10:46 am

Not to be pessimistic, but a ball park estimation to make 600 HP from a 300 inch 6 cyl engine, it will need a good working 370 + CFM intake port and 8500-9000 RPM.

As my friend would say, " get up early, pack a big lunch and bring your wallet".

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Re: 600 hp on a 300

Post #43 by CNC-Dude » Wed May 08, 2019 11:36 am

That's about what our 292 had for head and HP for H/MP naturally aspirated and a big wallet.
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