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free 300 what to do?

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67mustangat16
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free 300 what to do?

Post #1 by 67mustangat16 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:21 am

So I just acquired a 300 leaks a little oil but nothing an oil pan gasket can't fix. Its carbureted 86 or 87. My question is should I build a hot na engine or turbo it? This is going in my 67 mustang. Couple things i'm worried about is cost for power and mpg. I'm going to put 4 barrel intake or dual 2 barrel depending on turbo or na. Going to port and polish and maybe other head work. Put in new cam and probbly forged pistons. Main question though is affect on mpg.I have no problem paying for gas if it has lots of power but of I can get good mpg and same power...
67 coupe red mustang with black racing stripes. First car. going to turbo my 200 six.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #2 by Harte3 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:00 pm

Projecting MPG on any build is somewhere between not probable and not possible. Plan your build, work the plan and the MPG will be whatever it is within all the variables and dynamics that are present.
'83 F150 300, 0.030 over, Offy DP, Holley 4160/1848-1 465 cfm, Comp Cam 260H. P/P head, EFI exhaust manifolds, Walker Y Pipe, Super Cat, Turbo muffler, Recurved DSII, Mallory HyFire 6a, ACCEL Super Stock Coil, Taylor 8mm Wires, EFI plugs.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #3 by bmbm40 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:33 pm

If you are building a performance motor you will probably have your foot in it when driving so the mileage may not be too good. What kind of mileage do you want? Keep in mind it takes quite a bit of fabrication and time to put a 300 in a Mustang.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

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67mustangat16
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #4 by 67mustangat16 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:24 pm

I'm hoping for at least 15 considering stock gets 20 with a f series and I'm in a mustang. And I plan putting 5 speed for a 302 definitely going manual. I'm hoping for 300 hp. I really do like the idea of a pure engine however a turbo seems to fit my needs the best.
67 coupe red mustang with black racing stripes. First car. going to turbo my 200 six.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #5 by CoupeBoy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:52 pm

I'd recommend searching for posts and threads by nitrousnick
Here are a couple examples of why to get your started
How to install a 300 in a Mustang/ Falcon
pics-300 in mustang/mounts

Getting 300hp from a 300 ain't going to happen without some extra air being forced into it.
300 horsepower 300 six?

happy viewing,
-ron
1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
1970 170/C4
1967 200/C4
1965 240/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch/3.03 bell pattern
1975 250/flexplate
1975 300/flywheel

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #6 by CoupeBoy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:24 pm

I may as well post this up to,
Maverick with Turbo 300 knocking down 10.9 second quarter mile times.

67mustangat16
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #7 by 67mustangat16 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:05 pm

I'm aiming for the maverick haha. If I could do anything to that and have a daily driver would be a dream come true. So I continue my turbo project just with the big six.
Thanks for helping me decide.
Just curious would a ds11 off a 80 200 six with msd 6al ignition work on the 300?
67 coupe red mustang with black racing stripes. First car. going to turbo my 200 six.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #8 by CoupeBoy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:13 pm

The ds2 will.not fit. The rest of your parts will work with the correct ds2 for a 240/300. But I think you should sell it all and buy a BTM box if you are going turbo
1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
1970 170/C4
1967 200/C4
1965 240/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch/3.03 bell pattern
1975 250/flexplate
1975 300/flywheel

67mustangat16
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #9 by 67mustangat16 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:19 pm

What's a btm box?
67 coupe red mustang with black racing stripes. First car. going to turbo my 200 six.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #10 by CoupeBoy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:30 pm

MSD Boost Timing Master
http://www.jegs.com/i/MSD/121/8762/1000 ... MgodaRAAug

For example.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #11 by 67mustangat16 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:50 pm

Looks like a good idea to me. This takes away the need to alter the ignition?
67 coupe red mustang with black racing stripes. First car. going to turbo my 200 six.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #12 by CoupeBoy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:45 pm

You still have to limit the maximum advance (or possibly lock it out all together) as well as plug off the vacuum system. I'd have to do more research, but its my weekend and I don't have time right now..

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #13 by 67mustangat16 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:50 pm

Haha that's understandable and I just didn't know about that everything else is good.
67 coupe red mustang with black racing stripes. First car. going to turbo my 200 six.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #14 by Fordman75 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:18 pm

67mustangat16 wrote:So I just acquired a 300 leaks a little oil but nothing an oil pan gasket can't fix. Its carbureted 86 or 87. My question is should I build a hot na engine or turbo it? This is going in my 67 mustang. Couple things i'm worried about is cost for power and mpg. I'm going to put 4 barrel intake or dual 2 barrel depending on turbo or na. Going to port and polish and maybe other head work. Put in new cam and probbly forged pistons. Main question though is affect on mpg.I have no problem paying for gas if it has lots of power but of I can get good mpg and same power...



If it's a carbed engine it's most likely a 86. A 87 would be an EFI stock. Unless someone converted a 87 to a carb.



CoupeBoy wrote:Getting 300hp from a 300 ain't going to happen without some extra air being forced into it.

-ron


Not true. It will take a cam, compression , head work and $$. But you don't need a turbo, supercharger or nitrous to do it. But just throwing a intake, carb and header on won't do it.
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #15 by F-250 Restorer » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:40 pm

From what I can tell, between 250 hp and 300 hp is where the 300 building gets expensive, w/o going turbo.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #16 by CoupeBoy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:51 pm

1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
1970 170/C4
1967 200/C4
1965 240/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch/3.03 bell pattern
1975 250/flexplate
1975 300/flywheel

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #17 by Fordman75 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:54 pm

F-250 Restorer wrote:From what I can tell, between 250 hp and 300 hp is where the 300 building gets expensive, w/o going turbo.


Yep that's why I added the $$ to my list of mods above. Being expensive and not being able to be done without a turbo are two different things though. A lot will depend on how much of the work he can handle himself.

I think people get a little too hung up on the hp #'s. A stout 300 with a 5 spd behind it swapped into a 67 Mustang is going to be a fun ride. I don't think it matters if it's 300hp or 250hp. With the torque a 300 makes, 250 hp will feel like a 302 V8 that puts out 300hp! :lol:
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #18 by Fordman75 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:58 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:311hp dyno run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMPnlEWW43w


No turbo in sight. :lol:
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #19 by CoupeBoy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:02 pm

And the comments from the engine builder say it was purpose built and would NOT be enjoyable for a daily driver. Same thing SR said on the link I posted above.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #20 by Fordman75 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:56 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:And the comments from the engine builder say it was purpose built and would NOT be enjoyable for a daily driver. Same thing SR said on the link I posted above.


That's still different then not being doable. :mrgreen:

And what about Colonel Flashman's? His was dyno'd at 300 hp and still seems pretty streetable to me. :thumbup:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6_a8RzNLKw
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #21 by Harte3 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:10 am

Here is Col Flashman's build: http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/30774 ... 6-a-3.html

300 H.P. @ 4600 rpm & 400 Torque @ 3200 rpm w/ a 10 to 1 C.R.
It idels @ 675 & is smooth as glass, a quarter was placed on top of the Valve Cover & it Did Not move Nor rattle.

Ross Pistons 4.060
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Federal Mogul Mains .020 Under
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'83 F150 300, 0.030 over, Offy DP, Holley 4160/1848-1 465 cfm, Comp Cam 260H. P/P head, EFI exhaust manifolds, Walker Y Pipe, Super Cat, Turbo muffler, Recurved DSII, Mallory HyFire 6a, ACCEL Super Stock Coil, Taylor 8mm Wires, EFI plugs.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #22 by 80broncoman » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:10 pm

THe 300HP is possible without a turbo but it will take more RPM.

I'd set a budget/timeline to start with. Less budget will require more time(or luck) to equal the same results.
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80 bronco FUV (farm utility vehicle)300 T-18 3.50s EFI head, offy C dual plenum, 500 edel carb, 1.7 roller rockers, Crane 260 cam EFI Exh

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #23 by Baron Von Ottomatic » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:50 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:311hp dyno run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMPnlEWW43w


Harte3 wrote:Here is Col Flashman's build: http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/30774 ... 6-a-3.html

300 H.P. @ 4600 rpm & 400 Torque @ 3200 rpm w/ a 10 to 1 C.R.
It idels @ 675 & is smooth as glass, a quarter was placed on top of the Valve Cover & it Did Not move Nor rattle.


So we've got one dyno run from a 300 with 12:1 compression and a custom ground solid lifter cam with .565/.575 lift that idles roughly at what seems to be ~1,000 rpm which makes 311hp at 5,200 rpm.

Then another 300 with 10:1 compression and an off-the-shelf hydraulic torque cam that idles smooth as glass at 675 rpm which makes 300 hp at 4,600 rpm.

Something doesn't add up.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #24 by Fordman75 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:56 pm

Don't Forget Col. Flashman's is also a stroked 300.
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #25 by StrangeRanger » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:11 am

Baron Von Ottomatic wrote:...Something doesn't add up.


I've never been able to wrap my head around Col. Flashman's claimed numbers. His engine looks like a solid street build with some killer connecting rods added. I just don't see 300 HP there even with some very trick head work.

The other build is basically a strong bracket engine andf probably not even remotely streetable. I tend to believe their numbers but I wouldn't want to own their engine
1996 F-150 (tow missile)
1993 Mustang 5.0 (hot rod and auto-x monster)
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #26 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:27 am

StrangeRanger wrote:
Baron Von Ottomatic wrote:...Something doesn't add up.


I've never been able to wrap my head around Col. Flashman's claimed numbers. His engine looks like a solid street build with some killer connecting rods added. I just don't see 300 HP there even with some very trick head work.



X2

A less-than-honest dyno operator cam manipulate the dynamometer to drastically affect the HP produced. [Don't] ask me how I know.

And laying a quarter on the valve cover don't tell me much either.

My supervisor once balanced a nickle on the hood of running 4.2L Crown Vic. I had a picture to proove it.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #27 by worken2much » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:37 am

67,

As far as numbers go, 1 Hp per cubic inch was done by Chevrolet back in 1957. Mimic the compression, cam, flow through head... as close as you can get & fuel / air delivery system cfm used and replicate. Seems straightforward enough.

Fordman makes some very good points. A built 300 would be a good time in a light car, and people get too hung up on the numbers.

I haven't had the time to race the coupe in my avatar the last two years due to workload. However, I will tell you this. It is stock 4" bore, stock compression, worked head with bigger valves, ARP rod bolts, re-ground cam with gross valve lift under 1/2", 500 cfm carb & open headers. It also runs on whatever pump gas is handy. It has required 0 maintainence beyond oil changes and air filters in 5 years of racing. If we must have a number, I'd guess it in the 250 Hp range. It would make a dandy street motor.

We don't win every race, we win a few. Run against 327's with similar build it is tit for tat. It won't stay with an aggresively built one tho. More compression, more cam & carb will even that deal. Done that with another car.

Don't forget to consider parasitic loss and weight. As an example, I don't run a quick change rear. I use a Dana 44. It is lighter than the steel quick changes that most of my competitors use & it soaks up less horse power. The six has a very broad torque curve. I've never changed rear gears from a small 1/4 mile to a large 1/2. The 300 is aprx the same weight as the Ford 302. About 60 lbs less than a 327. Think about the whole package, not just the dyno printout.

Have some fun.
Worken2much
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #28 by 67mustangat16 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:53 pm

Hmm interesting stuff. And I'm not at all worried about the dyno numbers just want to be able to blow by my doggie doo talking friends:P. I'm gonna build this motor in my garage in secret spend a weekend "away" and put it in. Lol they will doggie doo themselves. I love the torque on these engines I just drove my friends bronco and you could pull down a tree. So a n/a 300 with 200-250 hp could be done pretty reasonably. I can do everything myself except for milling or other machine shop specific tasks. Would a cam, pistons, 240 head, a 4 barrel intake, and some head work like porting and polishing make around 200-250? What compression rate would a 240 head bring it up to? And would the single carb intake or dual carb intake be better?
67 coupe red mustang with black racing stripes. First car. going to turbo my 200 six.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #29 by StrangeRanger » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:56 pm

It's probably not a weekend project to stick a 300 in a Mustang unless you have your own fab shop.
Depending on what cam, what pistons, what head work etc, you should be in the 225-250 HP range
The 240 head will raise the CR to around 8.8 but your new pistons and your machine work can make it any number you want it to be. If you intend to run pump gas, keeping it under 9.5:1 is a good idea and not going over 10:1 in pretty much mandatory.

Single or dual carbs? The single 4V is going to be easier to tune but all else being equal the duals probably have a slight performance advantage due to better fuel distribution and much less overlap in the intake pulses (although you can fix that with a single 4v carb by mounting it sideways and installing a divider plate)
1996 F-150 (tow missile)
1993 Mustang 5.0 (hot rod and auto-x monster)
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #30 by Harte3 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:06 am

viewtopic.php?t=42347&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Check that out for computer projections on hp/tq for variously modified engines.
'83 F150 300, 0.030 over, Offy DP, Holley 4160/1848-1 465 cfm, Comp Cam 260H. P/P head, EFI exhaust manifolds, Walker Y Pipe, Super Cat, Turbo muffler, Recurved DSII, Mallory HyFire 6a, ACCEL Super Stock Coil, Taylor 8mm Wires, EFI plugs.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #31 by 67mustangat16 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:46 pm

Thank you! I've been playing with some engine building programs now :twisted:
And would single or dual carbs get better mpg? anybody have real world experience with this?
67 coupe red mustang with black racing stripes. First car. going to turbo my 200 six.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #32 by BIG 6 farmer » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:32 pm

I think both could be made to get fair MPGs. They both would have to have a heated Intake Manifold, & smaller Carb. sizes. A lot of Foriegn Cars had Dual Carbs., stock Factory. Mercedes Benz used a lot of Dual Downdraft Carbs., before Fuel Inj. was the norm. :nod:
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #33 by First Fox » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:40 am

Just noticed the thread and it caught my eye as i remember you wanted to turbocharge your small six in this car. Not to rain on your parade at all man, but this is not going to be a drop in deal at all. Do you feel comfortable with the structural cutting and welding required, or will you have to farm it out?

I also recall your wanting to turbo the small six on a really tight budget because you are young and money is tight. This will be even a bigger problem with the big six. Not trying to discourage you, just wanted to point it out before you spend a ton of money on an engine that is not likely to ever fit and work in that car.

I know you got the engine for free, but the cost of adding a transmission and the fabwork and upgrades required to make this thing physically fit and work will be huge in comparison to turbocharging your small six. Not saying it cant be done, just pointing out there is a lot of money to be spent to make this happen.

Best of luck to you whatever way you go though! :beer:
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1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #34 by CoupeBoy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:31 pm

First Fox wrote:Do you feel comfortable with the structural cutting and welding required, or will you have to farm it out? ...the cost of adding a transmission and the fabwork and upgrades required to make this thing physically fit and work will be huge in comparison to turbocharging your small six. Not saying it cant be done, just pointing out there is a lot of money to be spent to make this happen.
I am curious about what structural fabwork you are referring to. In previous posts I linked to NitrousNick's installation. The only thing he fabricated was some spacers for the motor mounts, the crossmember is stock with a new set of holes drilled in it, and he made a couple dimple dents in the firewall to allow the engine to set back farther.

Here you go another link to them..
How to install a 300 in a Mustang/ Falcon
pics-300 in mustang/mounts
1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
1970 170/C4
1967 200/C4
1965 240/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch/3.03 bell pattern
1975 250/flexplate
1975 300/flywheel

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #35 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:32 pm

.................
Last edited by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER on Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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First Fox
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #36 by First Fox » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:33 pm

Well how bout that? 8)

I totally missed that link and after looking at it, doesnt look too bad at all. I would personally attempt it, but I am also one to experiment with things that are difficult and unconventional. I was pointing out that it is not a bolt in deal and will take more than just a few bucks and a Saturday afternoon to make this work.
My garage:

1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #37 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:35 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:
First Fox wrote:Do you feel comfortable with the structural cutting and welding required, or will you have to farm it out? ...the cost of adding a transmission and the fabwork and upgrades required to make this thing physically fit and work will be huge in comparison to turbocharging your small six. Not saying it cant be done, just pointing out there is a lot of money to be spent to make this happen.
I am curious about what structural fabwork you are referring to. In previous posts I linked to NitrousNick's installation. The only thing he fabricated was some spacers for the motor mounts, the crossmember is stock with a new set of holes drilled in it, and he made a couple dimple dents in the firewall to allow the engine to set back farther.

Here you go another link to them..
How to install a 300 in a Mustang/ Falcon
pics-300 in mustang/mounts




Hooo boy. Every time I've tried to make an engine swap a myriad of fab problems have reared their heads. In the case of a '67 'stang I can envision:

firewall setback to achieve good F / R weight balance
trans crossmember fab issues
trans tunnel and shifter tower mods
exhaust system clearance to chassis
driveshaft length revision
throttle cable and kickdown lever placement
radiator inlet/outlet relocation

None of that stuff is rocket surgery but it can get pretty daunting for a first time swapper. The devil is always in the details, both from a functional end product standpoint and the amount of time needed to successfully complete a project. Lots of DIY projects end up getting passed along to a new owner because the original builder didn't go in with eyes wide open. Every time I see one of these TV shows that show a car rebuild being completed in mere days (e.g., Gas Monkey, Overhaulin') I chuckle to myself at all the projects of mine that have dragged into years because parts didn't arrive in time / wrong parts were shipped / stuff didn't fit as advertised / no commercial parts were available that I needed or just life interferring with my schedule. Some of my earlier projects ended up as colossal failure as a result.

The swap sounds like a fun and unique project. Just be aware that there will be many, many issues to overcome before you will see a driveable vehicle.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #38 by CoupeBoy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:43 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Hooo boy. Every time I've tried to make an engine swap a myriad of fab problems have reared their heads. In the case of a '67 'stang I can envision:

firewall setback to achieve good F / R weight balance
trans crossmember fab issues
trans tunnel and shifter tower mods
exhaust system clearance to chassis
driveshaft length revision
throttle cable and kickdown lever placement
radiator inlet/outlet relocation
Indeed, he will have stumbling blocks, and I'm sure NitrousNick left out a few tribulations, but nothing that you listed is a structural fabrication.. the transmission tunnel if it needs to be massaged gets close, but it isn't a structural failure point. Guys on this forum (usually Falcon owners) have modified their transmission crossmember brace for T5 fitment, no problem.

Add in
Throttle (cable or rod)
electrical splicing
potentially accessories won't physically fit like a power steering pump
Spring Rate may no longer be desirable with more engine weight
1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
1970 170/C4
1967 200/C4
1965 240/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch/3.03 bell pattern
1975 250/flexplate
1975 300/flywheel

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First Fox
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #39 by First Fox » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:33 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Hooo boy. Every time I've tried to make an engine swap a myriad of fab problems have reared their heads. In the case of a '67 'stang I can envision:

firewall setback to achieve good F / R weight balance
trans crossmember fab issues
trans tunnel and shifter tower mods
exhaust system clearance to chassis
driveshaft length revision
throttle cable and kickdown lever placement
radiator inlet/outlet relocation
Indeed, he will have stumbling blocks, and I'm sure NitrousNick left out a few tribulations, but nothing that you listed is a structural fabrication.. the transmission tunnel if it needs to be massaged gets close, but it isn't a structural failure point. Guys on this forum (usually Falcon owners) have modified their transmission crossmember brace for T5 fitment, no problem.

Add in
Throttle (cable or rod)
electrical splicing
potentially accessories won't physically fit like a power steering pump
Spring Rate may no longer be desirable with more engine weight


I am not familiar with the chassis of the early mustang and after seeing that post with the photos it is clear that nothing structural needs to be reworked. I have a 300 in my garage and after looking at it, and the engine compartment of my foxbody, there is just no way it would work without hacking the Kmember to death which is indeed structural. Is there a reason you are focusing on the term "structural"? There would be plenty of problems accociated with this swap that are not structural but would be respectfully, difficult for a guy that is new to fabrication to deal with.

The OP is likely limited in experience, money, tooling etc. and I am simply pointing out a potential can of worms. At his age, I was preoccupied with cramming girls and warm beers into my Camaro on any given weekend. There wasnt a whole lot of thought about drivline phasing or front end integrity in thatb regard. :)

As I said, I wish him well with his project.
My garage:

1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #40 by CoupeBoy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:57 pm

First Fox wrote:Is there a reason you are focusing on the term "structural"?
Because you brought it up and it should not be an issue on this project.

Here's something to think about.. *if* a guy were to know somebody with engineering/CAD skill and work someplace with a plasma table.. he could start forming a plan..

Maybe Motor mount plate coordinates courtesy of FTF..
Motor Mount coordinates.
IMG190.jpg

IMG194.jpg

And then when doing random searches across the internet he found a guy offering free plans for SBF motor mounts.. and made a set of his frame mounts (originally designed for a SBF, but I think they could work).
Stangfix.com -- member name buening --My Custom Motor Mount build thread
Made a whole set of them with stock height, .5" drop, and 1" drop.
IMG463.jpg

This same guy worked with the same forum member to build a '67/68 Mustang T5/AOD crossmember using measurements provided by another member..
'65-68 Mustang T5 Crossmember
IMG459.jpg

IMG461.jpg


How long do you think it would take that guy to figure out the rest of the components to make a bolt in 300 kit for a '67/68 Mustang?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
1970 170/C4
1967 200/C4
1965 240/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch/3.03 bell pattern
1975 250/flexplate
1975 300/flywheel

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First Fox
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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #41 by First Fox » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:20 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:
First Fox wrote:Is there a reason you are focusing on the term "structural"?
Because you brought it up and it should not be an issue on this project.



You must be joking. Plenty of what is written here has nothing to do with this project. I must have said something to bother you as threads get hijacked and topics diverted here all the time, some threads are absolutely unreadable because of it. You are focusing on one word in one of my posts and I even agreed it does not apply once looking further into it. Perhaps if I had simply eliminated the word "structural" and asked if he was comfortable doing the "cutting and welding", this would have made a difference to you? Plenty of fab work still needs to be done on this to make it work properly and it didn't seem that the OP had considered that fact. I assumed the OP was looking for advice and for anyone to give the impression that this drivetrain will fall into place and work properly is doing him a disservice.
My garage:

1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #42 by crash-harris » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:42 pm

If your fab skills are up to the challenge, and you have the time, then mounts shouldn't be too hard to do (granted I've never had a Stang to play with). I would suggest welding up a mount with some bushings on it. I would suggest BallisticFabrication.com if there is enough room for such large fab parts :lol:

Fordman75 wrote:
67mustangat16 wrote:So I just acquired a 300 leaks a little oil but nothing an oil pan gasket can't fix. Its carbureted 86 or 87. My question is should I build a hot na engine or turbo it? This is going in my 67 mustang. Couple things i'm worried about is cost for power and mpg. I'm going to put 4 barrel intake or dual 2 barrel depending on turbo or na. Going to port and polish and maybe other head work. Put in new cam and probbly forged pistons. Main question though is affect on mpg.I have no problem paying for gas if it has lots of power but of I can get good mpg and same power...



If it's a carbed engine it's most likely a 86. A 87 would be an EFI stock. Unless someone converted a 87 to a carb.


As for this, it was rare, but some of the 300's still came with carb'd setups, IIRC. Ford still having the factory parts laying around and all with nothing to do with them, I believe that they installed some of the spare carbby systems on the 87's.
Bruiser - 1990 Ford F150...barely...EFI 300 Big Six, 500K+!, converted to 4x4. 4.10 gears and Sterling FF rear w/ Trac-Lok, 37" meats. Undergoing 1 Ton leaf spring SAS. 6BT in the plans.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #43 by Fordman75 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:01 pm

crash-harris wrote:If your fab skills are up to the challenge, and you have the time, then mounts shouldn't be too hard to do (granted I've never had a Stang to play with). I would suggest welding up a mount with some bushings on it. I would suggest BallisticFabrication.com if there is enough room for such large fab parts :lol:

Fordman75 wrote:
67mustangat16 wrote:So I just acquired a 300 leaks a little oil but nothing an oil pan gasket can't fix. Its carbureted 86 or 87. My question is should I build a hot na engine or turbo it? This is going in my 67 mustang. Couple things i'm worried about is cost for power and mpg. I'm going to put 4 barrel intake or dual 2 barrel depending on turbo or na. Going to port and polish and maybe other head work. Put in new cam and probbly forged pistons. Main question though is affect on mpg.I have no problem paying for gas if it has lots of power but of I can get good mpg and same power...



If it's a carbed engine it's most likely a 86. A 87 would be an EFI stock. Unless someone converted a 87 to a carb.


As for this, it was rare, but some of the 300's still came with carb'd setups, IIRC. Ford still having the factory parts laying around and all with nothing to do with them, I believe that they installed some of the spare carbby systems on the 87's.


I seriously doubt any 87 300 powered trucks left the factory with a carb. I can see it on the industrial engines but not the trucks.
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #44 by crash-harris » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:06 pm

Quite possible. If IIRC (again, lol), the 300's were the first of the F-Series engines to go EFI, but had an "after run blower" due to the slight angle difference in the injectors as compared to the '90 and later models.
Bruiser - 1990 Ford F150...barely...EFI 300 Big Six, 500K+!, converted to 4x4. 4.10 gears and Sterling FF rear w/ Trac-Lok, 37" meats. Undergoing 1 Ton leaf spring SAS. 6BT in the plans.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #45 by Fordman75 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:19 pm

crash-harris wrote:Quite possible. If IIRC (again, lol), the 300's were the first of the F-Series engines to go EFI, but had an "after run blower" due to the slight angle difference in the injectors as compared to the '90 and later models.


The 86 302 V8's were the first truck/ full size Bronco EFI engines. Then the 300's in 87, 351W's & 460's in 88.
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #46 by BIG 6 farmer » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:56 pm

Had a new F150 in 1985 that i paid a $ 1,000 more for the 5.0 EFI Option. That year the Trucks got Port Injection before the cars (except for the 2.3 Turbo cars). Was a big deal back then. Almost got a bare bones 300 six Truck, glad i paid the extra for the F.I. 302. Back then, wasnt sure if it was a good idea. Never had a problem. This busted-up 89 F150, with a 300 six i have. Has the blower to the Fuel rail. I assumed it was cause all the heat on that side of Engine, would boil the fuel in the lines.
83 F 150 SB 4x4 300 six NP 4speed - - 1950 IHC L162 (1&1/2 ton?) - 87 & 88 T-Bird Turbo Coupes - 2000 Triumph Tiger , 76 Honda GL 1000 , & other toys and parts (& junk) -

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #47 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:25 pm

BIG 6 farmer wrote:This busted-up 89 F150, with a 300 six i have. Has the blower to the Fuel rail. I assumed it was cause all the heat on that side of Engine, would boil the fuel in the lines.


The squirrel cage blower manifold was used to cool the injectors themselves after shutdown. The residual heat was gumming up the injector nozzles and killing us with high warranty claims. As a stop-gap fix the crossflow head program was born to move the injectors to the other side of the engine away from the hot exhaust. And the rest is history. The V6 program won out for several rea$ons. Sad day in the company's history in my opinion.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #48 by 1986F150six » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:41 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
BIG 6 farmer wrote:This busted-up 89 F150, with a 300 six i have. Has the blower to the Fuel rail. I assumed it was cause all the heat on that side of Engine, would boil the fuel in the lines.


The squirrel cage blower manifold was used to cool the injectors themselves after shutdown. The residual heat was gumming up the injector nozzles and killing us with high warranty claims. As a stop-gap fix the crossflow head program was born to move the injectors to the other side of the engine away from the hot exhaust. And the rest is history. The V6 program won out for several rea$ons. Sad day in the company's history in my opinion.[/quote]

Mr. "The Frenchtown Flyer", sometime, when convenient for you, would you please start a new thread and tell us, in your opinon, what the 300/4.9L engine would/could have become if allowed to be developed to its fullest potential? That would be greatly appreciated!

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #49 by crash-harris » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:58 pm

1986F150six wrote:
Mr. "The Frenchtown Flyer", sometime, when convenient for you, would you please start a new thread and tell us, in your opinon, what the 300/4.9L engine would/could have become if allowed to be developed to its fullest potential? That would be greatly appreciated!



+1 :nod:
Bruiser - 1990 Ford F150...barely...EFI 300 Big Six, 500K+!, converted to 4x4. 4.10 gears and Sterling FF rear w/ Trac-Lok, 37" meats. Undergoing 1 Ton leaf spring SAS. 6BT in the plans.

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Re: free 300 what to do?

Post #50 by Fordman75 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:04 pm

That would be an inline 6 Coyote! :twisted: :mrgreen:
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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