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Removing EGR

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FuglyF100
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Removing EGR

Post #1 by FuglyF100 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:27 am

Hey guys, I took off the air pump and what little bit of vaccuum line crap there was on my old '82. I'd like to get rid of the EGR plate too. Will the carb still bolt to the intake after the EGR plate is taken off, or should I hit up a junk yard for an older style intake manifold? Thanks.
Tony

2007 Ford Focus - 2.0L I4
1996 Ford Explorer - 5.0L V8
1982 Ford F-100 - 4.9L I6
1991 Chevy K-1500 - 5.7L V8

Baron Von Ottomatic
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Re: Removing EGR

Post #2 by Baron Von Ottomatic » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:45 pm

There's no advantage to removing the EGR from a street driven vehicle and lots of disadvantages, why do you want to ditch it?

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FuglyF100
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Re: Removing EGR

Post #3 by FuglyF100 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:07 pm

Baron Von Ottomatic wrote:There's no advantage to removing the EGR from a street driven vehicle and lots of disadvantages, why do you want to ditch it?


The emissions equipment has not been functional on this truck in years, by the looks of it. I just want to strip it all off and set it up like the older 300's with no EGR or AIR pump garbage to deal with. Only obstacle I see is the fact that the vacuum port that runs to the PCV valve is part of that EGR plate. Did the non EGR engines have a spacer there or was the carb mounted directly to the manifold? Been a long time since I've dealt with a 300, let alone one with all this vacuum line crap on it.
Tony

2007 Ford Focus - 2.0L I4
1996 Ford Explorer - 5.0L V8
1982 Ford F-100 - 4.9L I6
1991 Chevy K-1500 - 5.7L V8

81f2504x4
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Re: Removing EGR

Post #4 by 81f2504x4 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:51 am

I disconnected the egr and air pump on my '81
I removed the air pump and welded the pipe shut at the manifold. I see no reason to remove the egr plate so I left it on. Once the vacuum line to the egr valve is removed it can not function. It will remain closed. The plate itself works as a spacer which should help mid to high rpm mpg.
Long story short, to me it just wasn't worth the effort.

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FuglyF100
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Re: Removing EGR

Post #5 by FuglyF100 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:41 pm

81f2504x4 wrote:I disconnected the egr and air pump on my '81
I removed the air pump and welded the pipe shut at the manifold. I see no reason to remove the egr plate so I left it on. Once the vacuum line to the egr valve is removed it can not function. It will remain closed. The plate itself works as a spacer which should help mid to high rpm mpg.
Long story short, to me it just wasn't worth the effort.


That's what I was thinking, just figured I'd ask since I have to replace the carb gaskets anyway. I'll just leave it in there disconnected. But just out of curiosity, does anyone know how the pre-EGR engines were setup?
Tony

2007 Ford Focus - 2.0L I4
1996 Ford Explorer - 5.0L V8
1982 Ford F-100 - 4.9L I6
1991 Chevy K-1500 - 5.7L V8

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #6 by bubba22349 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:09 pm

"Long story short, to me it just wasn't worth the effort"

The 1965 engine had the carb bolted to the intake without a spacer, the tune was also very different. It used a different carb and a point type distribitor all those parts are designed to work together. To top that off some emissions (smog) engines also have internal changes such as different cam timing and pistons. This is why there is no performance benafit to just removing or disabling the smog equipment and more likely a performance loss including less MPG. Don't know over the years how many people I tried to talk out of it (many listened) or number of poor running cars and trucks I have had to fix for people after they have been de-smoged but it was a lot. I also learned this lesson the hard way on a few of my cars back in the day. Good luck
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #7 by FuglyF100 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:35 pm

bubba22349 wrote:"Long story short, to me it just wasn't worth the effort"

The 1965 engine had the carb bolted to the intake without a spacer, the tune was also very different. It used a different carb and a point type distribitor all those parts are designed to work together. To top that off some emissions (smog) engines also have internal changes such as different cam timing and pistons. This is why there is no performance benafit to just removing or disabling the smog equipment and more likely a performance loss including less MPG. Don't know over the years how many people I tried to talk out of it (many listened) or number of poor running cars and trucks I have had to fix for people after they have been de-smoged but it was a lot. I also learned this lesson the hard way on a few of my cars back in the day. Good luck


I'm not too worried about tuning, this isn't my first rodeo with smog junk. I've been around engines long enough to know how to soothe them lol. The EGR and smog pump have been non-functional on this engine for a long time by the looks of it. The smog pump was locked up and the EGR was disconnected. I removed everything, rebuilt the carb and mounted it straight to the manifold with some shorter mounting studs. Used one of the larger ports on the vaccum tree to pull the PCV valve with. Re-timed the distributor and advanced the timing a little and she's running a million times better than she was when I bought her last week.

This thing is just going to be a junk hauler and beater cruiser for me at the moment. Might eventually pull the motor to rebuild and junk the rest once she gets too far gone. Thanks for the help guys :thumbup:
Tony

2007 Ford Focus - 2.0L I4
1996 Ford Explorer - 5.0L V8
1982 Ford F-100 - 4.9L I6
1991 Chevy K-1500 - 5.7L V8

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #8 by Ranger_gone_straight » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:42 pm

I have a 1977 300 in my '84 F250. It came with standard typical manifold set up with hole for egr, but with a solid FACTORY spacer plate that covered that hole. No factory EGR on whatever vehicle it came out of. Look at junkyard for 70s era heavier pickups with 300 if you can find such and get you a genuine factory spacer plate. Or just make your own. Around here that older stuff was crushed long ago. Getting so you dont see any 300s without fuel injection.

When I put the 300 into my little Ranger, didnt have space for big bulky EGR plate, had to keep carb as low as possible so it didnt hit the hood. I just welded the little hole in manifold closed and mounted carb using thick gasket. No problem.

Pretty much safe far as engine goes to eliminate EGR on any non-computer vehicle. Used to even increase gas mileage a little bit. Might have to adjust the needle valve in the Carter 1bbl a little bit to run bit richer if you are really picky though probably do fine as is. Not so on computer vehicles, much more difficult to modify successfully. People have gotten so used to thinking in terms of computerized vehicles they forget things were lot easier to fudge on earlier stuff.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #9 by BIG 6 farmer » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:53 pm

The problem with EGR, is not anymore. Back in the day, when every thing still had Carbs. The EGR could cause a drive ability issue, because the opening point was wrong. Thats why so many got un hooked. In modern times with Fuel Inj. & better Engine controls, it almost never happens. On an old Carbed 300 six, its prob. better unhooked, because the vacuum to it is prob. outa wack. :bang:
83 F 150 SB 4x4 300 six NP 4speed - - 1950 IHC L162 (1&1/2 ton?) - 87 & 88 T-Bird Turbo Coupes - 2000 Triumph Tiger , 76 Honda GL 1000 , & other toys and parts (& junk) -

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #10 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:53 am

FuglyF100 wrote:I'm not too worried about tuning, this isn't my first rodeo with smog junk.



For anybody reading this for whom it is their first rodeo some rudimentary things to keep in mind if you are about to remove EGR from a vehicle:

1. EGR only functions when the engine is running at part throttle. Since it has no effect on WOT or idle operation those portions of the ignition and fuel curves are not a factor when trying to tune out EGR, i.e. leave those parts of the carb and ignition systems alone - at least as far as the EGR factors into it.

2. EGR mass flow through the engine is a function of the load on the engine. Early systems (pre-EFI) used exhaust backpressure modulation as a means of controlling the rate of EGR flow. Electronic EFI cars used MAP and TP sensor inputs to do essentially the same thing, only more precisely. If you change your exhaust system by reducing the backpressure you are going to change the delivery rate of the EGR system.

I'm not going to encourage anybody to tamper with their emission systems but know that if you are trying to negate the effects of the EGR by changing the following things then you are generally doing it wrong:

-Initial timing
-centrifugal advance weights / springs (Part throttle spark schedule is governed by the part throttle advance mechanism and RPM. Its rate of advance depends on the spring constant in the advance diaphragm and the preload on said spring. The only true method of establishing the proper amount of part throttle spark advance taking into account best spark values for torque (MSV) modulated by the octane tolerance of the engine at any speed / load point is by dynamometer testing.
-MMJ
-idle mixture screws (Part throttle mixture is indeed influenced by idle mixture but part throttle fuel mixture changes are better addressed by changes to emulsion tubes, metering rods and maybe power valve.)

This whole dilema kinda reminds me of the TV show "So You Think You're Smarter Than a Fifth-Grader?"

If you think you're smarter that the Ford factory then go for it.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #11 by chessterd5 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:57 pm

hello, FTF is right. There is no real gain to eliminateing the EGR system.I fully admit my experience in this matter is with nissan cars not fords but the theory should be the same. On nissans for along time EGR flow was controled by a BPT valve (backpressure transducer) that allowed vacum to open the EGR valve at a certain RPM ( IIRC it was 2,000 to 2,400 RPM.) based on backpressure from the exhaust. All EGR is, is a way to introduce unburned Hydrofluorocarbons (or, gas) that is in the exhaust back into the cylinder to be burned before that unburned gas reachs the catalytic converter & helps to potentially destroy the prescios metals in the honeycomb and/or leave the tailpipe as pollution. On carburated engines, all your doing is eliminateing the potential for better gas mileage by not using all the fuel that has been through the engine. On computer controlled EFI vehicles that unburned gas that remains in the exhaust will affect O2 sensor readings wich can potentially change the amount of fuel the ECM sends to the injecters based on stoichiometric ratio & if the cat fails, then there will be no difference between the front & rear O2 sensor reading, causeing the ECM to go into closed loop.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #12 by FuglyF100 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:07 pm

Thanks for the help guys. Although I'm going to have to go with my past experiences and disagree with you on the part of no EGR causing problems. I've done it to countless Chevy and Ford V8's in the form of non-EGR intake manifolds and have nary a problem to show for it.

I used ol Fugly to haul some wood up to a friends place yesterday, and she ran great with no problems whatsoever. Averaged about 16 mpg on the interstate too. If she misses all her smog junk, she isn't showing it lol
Tony

2007 Ford Focus - 2.0L I4
1996 Ford Explorer - 5.0L V8
1982 Ford F-100 - 4.9L I6
1991 Chevy K-1500 - 5.7L V8

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #13 by BIG 6 farmer » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:32 pm

FuglyF100 wrote:Thanks for the help guys. Although I'm going to have to go with my past experiences and disagree with you on the part of no EGR causing problems. I've done it to countless Chevy and Ford V8's in the form of non-EGR intake manifolds and have nary a problem to show for it.

I used ol Fugly to haul some wood up to a friends place yesterday, and she ran great with no problems whatsoever. Averaged about 16 mpg on the interstate too. If she misses all her smog junk, she isn't showing it lol
In this case i have to agree with you. On an old Truck like that, Getting the EGR & the rest of the Emission Control Sys. to work can be a pain. When this Truck was new, the Factory tune put it to the edge of poor drive ability. Now that its old, a little tired? ALL the adjustments need to be a little different. Also, the age of the Truck makes it exempt for Emission testing in most States. (if not all?)
83 F 150 SB 4x4 300 six NP 4speed - - 1950 IHC L162 (1&1/2 ton?) - 87 & 88 T-Bird Turbo Coupes - 2000 Triumph Tiger , 76 Honda GL 1000 , & other toys and parts (& junk) -

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #14 by bubba22349 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:36 am

" the age of the Truck makes it exempt from Emission testing in mosts states (if not all ?) "

Well for sure not all states! In Ca. Every two years Any 1976 or newer has to pass both visual and emission tests. They also setup random check points on the roads in SoCal to inspect that cars and trucks are compliant.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #15 by BIG 6 farmer » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:02 am

Wow, sounds like Nazi Germany? Thought Calif. was a little easier than that. Here in Nebr., there was talk about Emissions testing over the years. Have not heard anything for a long time. We have more Hogs , Cattle & Horses than people, and most of the people live in the eastern 1/3 of the State. A lot of wind, no smog. Only time you hear of emissions, its about smells from a Hog Farm or a Cattle lot. Too close to City Folk. (Man i sound like a Hick)
Last edited by BIG 6 farmer on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
83 F 150 SB 4x4 300 six NP 4speed - - 1950 IHC L162 (1&1/2 ton?) - 87 & 88 T-Bird Turbo Coupes - 2000 Triumph Tiger , 76 Honda GL 1000 , & other toys and parts (& junk) -

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #16 by bubba22349 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:47 am

LOL yeah they are quite controlling here in Ca! L.A county has been at the business of air quality since at least the mid 1950's maybe even earlier (burning trash in incinerators, ect.) was out lawed. To their credit air quality was very bad especially here in SoCal area for many years. The smog laws have charged many times too and in the past could even vary by the county. Nothing wrong with being in the farm areas there were many times over the years that I wish could be in the country. LOL yeah we have some of those cattle and hog lots (smells) here too, but they are mostly up north in the Central Valley.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #17 by FuglyF100 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:51 am

bubba22349 wrote:" the age of the Truck makes it exempt from Emission testing in mosts states (if not all ?) "

Well for sure not all states! In Ca. Any 1976 or newer has to pass both visual and emission tests. They also setup random check points on the roads to inspect that cars and trucks are compliant.


I'd never dream of living in communist CA anyway, but if I did, I would sure as heck be finding a 1975 or earlier model year vehicle to fix up. lol
Tony

2007 Ford Focus - 2.0L I4
1996 Ford Explorer - 5.0L V8
1982 Ford F-100 - 4.9L I6
1991 Chevy K-1500 - 5.7L V8

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #18 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:17 am

FuglyF100 wrote: Averaged about 16 mpg on the interstate too. If she misses all her smog junk, she isn't showing it lol


I would think that 18 - 20 mpg might be good with the factory emissions system on the freeway, based on my own experience with '83 and '85 vehicles. Assuming you are not exceeding the speed limit. So maybe enough spark advance has beed removed to eliminate any knocking problems, or the carb fattened up, at the expense of a couple of mpg.

I am curious as to what mods you did from stock specs that enabled you to get 16 mpg?
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Re: Removing EGR

Post #19 by FuglyF100 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:47 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
FuglyF100 wrote: Averaged about 16 mpg on the interstate too. If she misses all her smog junk, she isn't showing it lol


I would think that 18 - 20 mpg might be good with the factory emissions system on the freeway, based on my own experience with '83 and '85 vehicles. Assuming you are not exceeding the speed limit. So maybe enough spark advance has beed removed to eliminate any knocking problems, or the carb fattened up, at the expense of a couple of mpg.

I am curious as to what mods you did from stock specs that enabled you to get 16 mpg?


The thing never knocked from the beginning. Remember, the emissions junk wasn't functioning when I bought the truck. All I did was remove the air pump, the EGR valve and the rats nest of vacuum lines that controlled everything. Checked the base timing and it was slightly retarded, so I set it at 3 degrees advanced.

I dunno what kind of gearing it has, but was running 65 MPH on the interstate for 90% of the trip.
Tony

2007 Ford Focus - 2.0L I4
1996 Ford Explorer - 5.0L V8
1982 Ford F-100 - 4.9L I6
1991 Chevy K-1500 - 5.7L V8

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #20 by CoupeBoy » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:01 pm

FuglyF100 wrote:I dunno what kind of gearing it has, but was running 65 MPH on the interstate for 90% of the trip.
If you did 65mph on my interstates the old ladies would be flying you the bird as they whizzed past you.. :mrgreen: Our state highways (2 lane) are 65mph, interstates are posted at 75mph.

I have nothing useful to add to this post except that cars I removed non-functional EGR from worked just as well after as they did before.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #21 by FuglyF100 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:40 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:If you did 65mph on my interstates the old ladies would be flying you the bird as they whizzed past you.. :mrgreen: Our state highways (2 lane) are 65mph, interstates are posted at 75mph.

I have nothing useful to add to this post except that cars I removed non-functional EGR from worked just as well after as they did before.


LMAO yeah the 2 lane highways around here are 55 and interstates are 65. I normally cruise 70-75 on the interstates, but with this old rattle-trap truck I figured why push it... :rolflmao:
Tony

2007 Ford Focus - 2.0L I4
1996 Ford Explorer - 5.0L V8
1982 Ford F-100 - 4.9L I6
1991 Chevy K-1500 - 5.7L V8

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #22 by PetesPonies » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:42 pm

Maybe we have some people here not at their first rodeo, but first or whatever, only one person wins the damn thing anyway :bang: Point being, don't believe everything you hear or read . . here included. As was said, EGR doesn't really hurt performance and it definitely helps in emissions and with detonation. BUT . . you can most certainly tune it to take care of the things without a bandaid ( EGR ) being used. But, you have to know more than the average guy who can turn and screwdriver and doesn't really understand what he's turning . . know what I mean? The way EGR is now controlled is totally different than on carburetted engines. One crack in a million vacuum lines somewhere can screw things all up. So removing it and all the mess of vacuum lines on a carburetted engine . . I totally understand. But as with anything you do to improve performance on an engine, you must look at the total package and make sure everything is working as it should. This involves really understanding what is going on with all systems. Plus . . who doesn't like a cleaner looking engine?? As for you guys living in communist Cali . God Bless ya!
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Re: Removing EGR

Post #23 by E4ODnut » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:04 pm

Well said Pete.
Robert
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'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
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Re: Removing EGR

Post #24 by Seattle Smitty » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:35 pm

"Are you smarter than the Ford factory" is just one of two questions to ask, the other being, "If the Ford factory had built the engine for best efficiency in all regimes (incl. part-throttle cruise) WITHOUT having to meet any emissions requirements, would they have used EGR?" The answer to that is no. Mixing an inert gas (recirculated exhaust) with the intake charge makes the engine less efficient in any circumstance. There seems to be an idea that because EGR only works during part-throttle operation, it therefore can't hurt anything. That's wrong; if the factory had built the engine without EGR, without the inert gas, it would make a given level of part-throttle power with less fuel. If you want more efficiency than the factory built into the engine, you can make a number of non-factory modifictions, one of which would certainly be deleting the EGR. But as I keep saying to those who insist that EGR "doesn't hurt", if you think you can run better with inert gas in your intake charge, why not install a bottle of argon?

HOWEVER, repeat HOWEVER, if you do make engine changes, pretty much ANY engine changes, the question, "Are you smarter" then applies with a vengeance. The factory, having had to employ EGR, spent a lot of dyno and track time fine-tuning the engine FOR THAT CONFIGURATION. In deleting the EGR, or doing ANY OTHER ENGINE MODIFICATION, you put your engine outside of the factory's expert tuning program . . . your engine is OUT OF TUNE. This is why people here and elsewhere frequently report disappointment with mods that should have worked better than they did . A huge range of tuning knowledge and awareness exists in our little world, from clueless to expert. The fact that you can spin a wrench and remove or install something says nothing about your ability to tune your engine for the change(s) you make. I like to think I know something about this, but am fully aware that I could know an awful lot more.

Come to think of it, there is a part B to the, "Are you smarter" question, and that is, "If you ARE smart enough that you could re-tune your engine to take reasonably full advantage of its now-not-factory configuration, do you have the tools to do it?" Tachometer, vacuum guage, dial-back-to-zero timing light, a compression gauge and maybe a blowdown guage to make sure the engine is basically healthy, a set of jets and emulsion tubes and needles and powervalves and what-not, an adjustable vacuum advancer and sets of distributor springs and weights, even an air-fuel meter, I'm surely forgetting things here, . . . and then can you afford and get dyno-time (and do you know how to USE dyno time?), or do you at least have a long, straight, even, lightly-traveled uphill grade to use as a poor-man's dyno (and do you know how to use that?), or do you have a local dragstrip (and do you know how to use that?). And do you have time, T I M E, plenty of time, to tune?

Because if you can't say yes to most of that, then you can't really do a good job re-tuning the changes you make from factory, and thus the effectiveness of your changes will be a matter of luck.

I don't write this from any position of superiority. I am driving a car every day that I fully rebuilt and modified significantly (incl. EGR delete, for reasons not important here), and it is not getting nearly the mpg I intend for it, chiefly because I haven't had any time to go through a good tuning program. Maybe this summer, and I am looking forward to the tuning exercise, which I feel is not a chore but a fun intellectual challenge for any good amateur rodder. Until then, my car performs less well than a factory-stock car would, even though everything I did has the potential to be an improvement; the current state of tune is that far out, even though the car runs reasonably smoothly and without drama.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #25 by Harte3 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:40 pm

Excellent cussin and discussin of the EGR v non-EGR. Explains why there are so many postings especially on the FTE site about plugging, unplugging, removing or otherwise disabling (half-assed re-engineering) the so-called 'smog junk' and wondering why their vehicles don't run properly.
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Re: Removing EGR

Post #26 by E4ODnut » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:48 pm

Well said Smitty.
Robert
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'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
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Re: Removing EGR

Post #27 by BIG 6 farmer » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:55 am

wow, i smell a mean tone in some of these posts. The way i look at it, im not going to beat any body up. For having their EGR un hooked, on a nearly out of service life Car/Truck. (less on the road every day). The fact is, the early EGR systems on some makes. Had a problem with proper timing & amount of Exhaust gas into intake, when they were new. The nearly "gone from the road" old Cars/Trucks do little to affect air quality any more, In my opinion. :nod: BUT, on a modern Computer controlled EFI system, there is no excuse to do it. No advantage, in a Street Car/Truck. Thats how i divide this up, play nice. :D
83 F 150 SB 4x4 300 six NP 4speed - - 1950 IHC L162 (1&1/2 ton?) - 87 & 88 T-Bird Turbo Coupes - 2000 Triumph Tiger , 76 Honda GL 1000 , & other toys and parts (& junk) -

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #28 by E4ODnut » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:58 pm

Big 6,
Actually, I think everyone is behaving themselves quite well. Forums are about opinions, and this particular forum has, in general, about the most mature and level headed bunch I have run across anywhere. Even if we don't all agree on a particular point, it's always good to see it from someone else's perspective when we can all remain civil to each other.

I appreciate your concerns, they are legitimate, but things could be so much worse, as I'm sure we have all witnessed on other forums. Diplomacy is not always easy, but it is so important for us all.
Robert
'95 E-150, 4.9L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'93 Bayliner 3288, Twin 5.8L Windsors, converted to tuned port EFI, Megasquirt

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #29 by BIG 6 farmer » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:48 am

Your right on all that. This is a good bunch of Guys. Other Forums i have seen, can be full of hate. Just didnt want this thread to get that way. On my previous posts on this thread, im trying to get some to take a step back. Take a look at the big picture about this. The practice of taking off Emissions Equipment, over time will fade away.
83 F 150 SB 4x4 300 six NP 4speed - - 1950 IHC L162 (1&1/2 ton?) - 87 & 88 T-Bird Turbo Coupes - 2000 Triumph Tiger , 76 Honda GL 1000 , & other toys and parts (& junk) -

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #30 by E4ODnut » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:51 am

I don't use EGR in any of my MS controlled engines, but this situation is a bit different from yours. I would expect that because yours is a relatively early model, it should be practical to remove it and tune around it to get the engine to run as good as or better than it did from the factory with the caveat that it probably wouldn't meet emissions requirements.

Is this a huge issue? For some people I suppose it is. I take the view that my engines are probably in better condition and in a better state of tune than most of their age. If my NOX readings are slightly above current accepted levels in the big picture it makes no real difference. Some will disagree with that.

With the current engine designs and management systems I suppose that it is possible to use EGR to the best advantage for both emissions and economy, but the early attempts were crude at best and it made a hellova mess of the intake tract to boot. It is said that EGR can help with part throttle economy. It is my understanding that in the early systems at least, the only reason for this was that because this "inert gas" that was introduced into the intake air, resulted in less available oxygen to burn. This produced less power, so it was necessary to open the throttle more to produce the power needed. This reduced pumping losses, so there would be a potential increase in economy.

My preferred method for part throttle economy is to lean the engine out as much as I can without causing a lean stumble and adjust timing to suit. The lean mix produces less power, so I have to open the throttle more which reduces pumping losses. My manifold pressure is higher (lower vacuum) than it would be if I was running a stoichiometric or richer mix, but I burn less fuel. Not much, 2 or 3%, but it's there and it's real. It sounds counter intuitive, but it works and I have the instrumentation to prove it, but referring back to Smitty's post, all this takes more than a little bit of knowledge and a lot of experimentation.
Robert
'95 E-150, 4.9L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'93 Bayliner 3288, Twin 5.8L Windsors, converted to tuned port EFI, Megasquirt

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #31 by Seattle Smitty » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:32 pm

Who was "not playing nice," farmer? I didn't express an opinion for or against removing EGR or making any other engine alteration. What I said was that the factory carefully tuned THEIR engines, and if you alter the engine, it is no longer tuned to best advantage. Put those nifty split exhaust manifolds from a late EFI 300 on your older engine, bolt on a Clifford/Offy/Whatever intake, get a modern cam, roller tappets, high-ratio lifters, build in a little more compression and set the squish-height, we KNOW that these and some other mods are good alterations that improve your engine over what the manufacturer could afford to build and sell . . . BUT, and that is a great big BUT, with hair on its chest, BUT, the engine is not in tune. And just adjusting the idle needle and bumping the initial timing of the dizzy is not tuning, not by a long shot. Good tuning is complicated, and those who can do it well (and FAST) impress me no-end.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #32 by BIG 6 farmer » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:25 pm

Relax Smitty, didnt say anyone was mean or wrong. Just didnt want it to go that way. I read your posts,& your right. No disagreement there :nod: I will be glad when this Full Moon is over :D
83 F 150 SB 4x4 300 six NP 4speed - - 1950 IHC L162 (1&1/2 ton?) - 87 & 88 T-Bird Turbo Coupes - 2000 Triumph Tiger , 76 Honda GL 1000 , & other toys and parts (& junk) -

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #33 by MechRick » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:29 pm

I think it very much depends on *which* engine you want to remove the egr on. My 7.5:1 turbo car didn't miss it at all, and got terrific mpg. My 4.9L EFI truck on the other hand, pings with the Megasquirt and no egr at the factory compression ratio. I wish msns-e code would add egr support. I'd install it on 'Ol Blue in a heartbeat.

I had thought that the 268H cam would allow enough mixture dilution at lower rpm to keep it from pinging (Ford actually did this on some vehicles, my B2300 has no egr), but no.

Carbed vehicles get the best fuel economy at high intake manifold vacuum, and egr flow will reduce it. But modern high compression engines with computer (read 'knock sensor') controlled egr seem to suffer no ill consequences.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

Seattle Smitty

Re: Removing EGR

Post #34 by Seattle Smitty » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:25 pm

Putting exhaust gases into the fuel-air mix cools and slows the burn, so the factory had to compensate by adding some spark advance to get the fire started sooner. Delete the EGR and you've now got a hotter, faster fire, but you also now have excess spark advance that can easily cause pinging. One quick and dirty emergency fix is to disconnect the vacuum advance; another is to unclamp the dizzy and back down on the initial timing. Pretty poor practice, hardly can be called tuning.

Real tuning would change the shape of the timing curve to suit the new conditions, plus there are often carburetion changes called for. A lot of the factory tuning program is aimed at getting the catalytic converter lit quickly and kept lit. When we make alterations sometimes we are opening a can of worms, with multiple effects and some high-order tuning called for to address them. To really learn this stuff, you could make one change, one modification at a time. I'll never have time for that approach, and on the not-yet-well-tuned car I mentioned, I am going to make some more alterations before I get to the real tuning.

(Maybe the newer computerized cars with all of their feedback sensors can compensate for much of this; I know nothin' about 'em, and don't want to, just too old and set in my relatively simple carbureted ways.)

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #35 by E4ODnut » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:46 pm

All the Ford information that I have, or have read, suggests that EGR on the EFI 300 is only used at part throttle. Closed loop is not used at full throttle. The definition of part throttle or full throttle is not given, but I'm assuming that manifold pressures above about 85 KPA absolute would be considered full throttle.

I don't use EGR at all and have no pinging at part throttle even with a fair amount of advance. I do have a problem with pinging at full throttle though, an area in which EGR and O2 feed back would play no part. I can reduce it by running 92 octane gasoline, but at Cdn$1.50 a litre it's not a practical option. If I fatten the mix up to about 10.5:1 I can get rid of it, but that's also an expensive way to do it and does nothing to make more power. My practical solution is to dial back my full throttle timing to almost base timing.

Now, the interesting thing is that even under EECIV control, with EGR in place, and the stock knock sensor in place, I would get some full load pinging. I sure wish I could find out what the stock spark map is and what the timing modifiers for EGR are.
Robert
'95 E-150, 4.9L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'93 Bayliner 3288, Twin 5.8L Windsors, converted to tuned port EFI, Megasquirt

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #36 by nightwatchman59 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:27 am

A bunch of vacuum hoses became a bunch of vacuum leaks. I went retro and re did everything circa 1969, then bumped up the timing. I'm in a much happier place, now.... my wife will even drive it on rare occasions!!! (1984 4x4, 4 spd) :nod:

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #37 by Josh Jones » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:10 pm

I'm sorry, I don't believe in the whole "erg is better theory" If your having to add exhaust in the engine to make it run better, something is wrong. Bad engine design more than likely. If I had to add a band aid I rather add meth / water. (This is coming from a point of view of "engine efficiency".) I've seen way to many high hp "energy efficient" builds produce cleaner emissions.

How do you create more hp per cu inch? Create a higher efficient combustion cycle.
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #38 by MechRick » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:09 pm

Everything is a tradeoff.

Think about the early days of emissions systems, back in the late '60's and early '70's. The EPA was forcing the auto manufacturers to reduce pollutants from engines. They were adding egr and air injection systems to existing engines whose compression ratios were dropping to run on gasoline that no longer had lead as an anti-knock additive. Remember V8 Cadillacs that had to have an external belt-driven air pump because the engines were so strangled they couldn't create enough vacuum on their own?

The problem has been two-fold. EPA regulations and fuel quality.

Fast forward to the '90's, and the manufacturers are designing engines with tailpipe emissions as part of the design criteria. The 4.6L was introduced as a 5.0L replacement with a smaller bore, better combustion chamber design and cleaner pistons (tighter clearances and the top ring land was moved upward to reduce dead space above the ring land). These were all emissions considerations. They also bumped the compression ratio. They knew they could get away with it, because egr will cool the burn just enough to stop them from pinging. Disconnect egr from an engine that was designed to have it (and is already living at the threshold of knock) and you probably will need to pull a bunch of timing out of it to keep it from chewing it's pistons.

Ever drive a vehicle at high altitude for a long time and wonder why the fuel economy is better? High altitude means less air. Less air means the pumping losses go down. At part throttle, a properly designed egr system will accomplish the same thing.

If you are starting from scratch to build a hot street/race engine, all emissions and fuel economy considerations go out the window, because race fuel and methanol don't ping (well, unless you are the sort who likes to hit diesel territory).
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

Seattle Smitty

Re: Removing EGR

Post #39 by Seattle Smitty » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:24 pm

They were able to add compression because they had improved swirl ('80s). They HAD TO advance timing for EGR ('70s-on) because a fuel/air/exhaust mix burns slower than a fuel/air mix.

Fugly, if you ditch the EGR (mind you, I am neither advocating doing this or not doing it!) you need to look at initial timing and timing curve specs for a pre-EGR engine. Were there any pre-EGR 300s? I don't know. There were pre-EGR 240s, but unless you are using a 240 head on your '82 300, those specs would be more informational than something to apply directly. Is your '82 head a swirl head, or is it like the smogger heads of the '70s? That also affects what you want for a timing curve. One good thing about a "short-rod" engine like the 300 (as opposed to the 240) is that it should be more forgiving of ignition timing that is not optimal. Are you making other changes that affect timing? I don't know that your disconnecting of the air pump system has an affect on timing, though it will cause the catalytic converter to light off later and stay lit less well, and you'll be putting out more unburned HC without any real engine efficiency gains (but it certainly helps simplify and "clean up" the engine compartment).

Bottom line is that back at the beginning of this thread, the Baron may well have given you the best advice. Unless you are a more-knowledgable-than-usual backyard tuner, with the tools and TIME to devote to re-calibrating your engine, then restoring the factory systems to working order is much simpler and less time-consuming, and you can do simple tuning per the factory manual's specs.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #40 by randomlyrob » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:03 am

I recently picked up an '89 F250 4x2 4spd w/OD and have been contemplating deleting the EGR. When I look under the hood all I see is a mess of essentially unnecessary components that can fail and cause me more troubleshooting headaches than I want. I don't drive far if I even drive, so I wouldn't be tearing a hole in the universe.

I'm a certified heavy equipment technician by trade working in the field for the past decade at both Caterpillar and John Deere construction equipment dealerships. I've watched EGR creep into this industry and completely destroy the reliability of otherwise bulletproof engine designs from both manufacturers. It's not pretty and the earth moving customers are much less than enthused. Unfortunately, due to regulations, that's the way it goes for them.

I completely understand and agree with the whole engine-tuning argument. However, when dealing with engines such as our inlines; where they've been adapted, rather than created with this equipment in mind, I don't see the major issue in returning them to their true basic form (Suck, Squeeze, Bang and Blow). Ford just attached a bunch of components and made adjustments to get it to work best while meeting regulations. If I am at a point where the regulations no longer apply, what more complication is there from removing, swapping and adjusting a few external components?

Anyway, I guess my question is... Is there anyone out there who's successfully removed the EGR equipment from an EFI engine? If so, how so?

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #41 by E4ODnut » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:44 pm

I'd suggest you read all the posts in this thread and I think you'll find the answer to your question.

Unless you are going to switch over to programmable system, either with an after market ECU, or some dependable way of modifying the EEC-IV tuning parameters I wouldn't advise it. The stock fueling and ignition timing maps are based on the use of EGR in some conditions. Just removing the EGR will upset the apple cart, so to speak.
Robert
'95 E-150, 4.9L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'93 Bayliner 3288, Twin 5.8L Windsors, converted to tuned port EFI, Megasquirt

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #42 by randomlyrob » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:28 pm

I have read through the entire discussion multiple times but that still doesn't answer my question; which was...

Is there anyone out there who's successfully removed the EGR equipment from an EFI engine? If so, how so?


There is much about how it's been done on carbureted engines and and why/why not to do it. I'm just looking to see if it's been successfully completed on an EFI engine?

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #43 by E4ODnut » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:31 pm

OK. I've been running no EGR controlled by Megasquirt on my '95 E150 for over 8 years and about 150,000 KM now with no problems. I consider that to be a success. The caveat is that it is no longer running on the stock EEC-IV programming. If your question is if it has been successfully completed on an EFI engine running the stock ECU, then I'm afraid I can't answer it for you.
Robert
'95 E-150, 4.9L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'93 Bayliner 3288, Twin 5.8L Windsors, converted to tuned port EFI, Megasquirt

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #44 by bubba22349 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:30 pm

If your question is if it has been successfully completed on an EFI engine running the stock ECU, then I'm afraid I can't answer it for you.


If that's your question then the answer is no it would cause the ECU to throw fault codes, go into limp home mode, with performance and economy suffering.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #45 by randomlyrob » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:09 pm

Well, that does answer my first question and begins to answer my second (how?). So the engine controller must be replaced and calibrated. What else?

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #46 by E4ODnut » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:42 pm

You've answered your own question, sort of.

You don't have to replace the ECU if you have the means to recalibrate it accurately so that the engine will run as good as or better than it did before you removed EGR from the equation. If you don't have the means to re calibrate it you must replace it with something that you can calibrate accurately so that the engine will run as good as or better than it did before you removed EGR from the equation.

I'm not trying to be nasty here, but the OEM has put a huge amount of time and money into development to use EGR to assist with meeting emissions concerns. If you remove EGR the OEM programming will probably not be able to meet it's goals and the engine will not run any better than it did before and probably a lot worse. If you are diligent in re programming, you can make the engine run better, that is a bit better fuel economy, but it most probably will no longer meet the emissions requirements it did before you started.

You are a professional mechanic so I would expect that you can see how this logic would relate to the newer developments in diesel technology.
Robert
'95 E-150, 4.9L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'92 Winnebago Elante 33RQ, 7.5L, E4OD, Megasquirt
'93 Bayliner 3288, Twin 5.8L Windsors, converted to tuned port EFI, Megasquirt

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #47 by Montana77f100 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:40 am

Newb here. have a 77 ford f100. was in process of installing new gaskets all over. busted the pipe fitting going to egr spacer plate due to no anti-seize or never been taken apart before. I am looking for a spacer plate egr or not that will fit stock intake and carb. I could plug the extra hole in the intake if need be. I just cannot find any spacers! :bang:

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #48 by Seattle Smitty » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:22 pm

randomlyrob wrote:I'm a certified heavy equipment technician by trade working in the field for the past decade at both Caterpillar and John Deere construction equipment dealerships. I've watched EGR creep into this industry and completely destroy the reliability of otherwise bulletproof engine designs from both manufacturers. It's not pretty and the earth moving customers are much less than enthused. Unfortunately, due to regulations, that's the way it goes for them.


Rob, if you still are following this, I'd like to hear some specifics on what you guys are finding. Do most of the problems on the diesels come when the EGR system plugs up or develops leaks?

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #49 by country fried 6 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:04 pm

Seattle Smitty wrote:Rob, if you still are following this, I'd like to hear some specifics on what you guys are finding. Do most of the problems on the diesels come when the EGR system plugs up or develops leaks?


yes and yes, and EGR on a diesel causes issues because of the high level of soot is being ingested by the engine, not good. the heat from the exhaust requires coolers on the EGR adding heat to the cooling system, also when you cool the exhaust it causes the soot to condense on the walls of everything it touches, hence the plugging up issue.

I hear that Cat has configured their EGR to pull exhaust from after DPF (diesel particulate filter) to eliminate the soot and the need for a cooler. i'm sure it causes other issues aswell.

newer Duramax's had an EGR cooler bypass valve, exhaust bypasses the EGR cooler in lower heat situations, like idling, to reduce condensate buildup. more parts to cause problems.

meanwhile back at the ranch, most new gas engines have done away with EGR, some accomplish the same effect using variable cam timing, but some like my '08 Ranger 2.3 have neither EGR nor VCT.

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Re: Removing EGR

Post #50 by Seattle Smitty » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:40 pm

Thanks for that. When, what year was the first for required EGR on diesels?

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