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Summit Carb??

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F-250 Restorer
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Summit Carb??

Post #1 by F-250 Restorer » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:07 pm

Time has passed since I last inquired about this. I was wondering if any one has tried the Summit Carb on their 300 yet.

I'd love to hear.

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Re: Summit Carb?? off subject

Post #2 by Lagerhead » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:41 pm

some one said you oil persure problem with cilford cam did a cam swap help
99.5 F350 lowered air ride strong PSD crew cab swb
48 ford coupe cage old school stock car 12.25 to 1 290 cilford cam, cliford 2x2 with webber 38/38,some cool old stock car headers, 240 head with big valves, bbc roller rockers

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Re: Summit Carb?? off subject

Post #3 by F-250 Restorer » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:30 am

Lagerhead wrote:some one said you oil persure problem with cilford cam did a cam swap help


Lagerhead: I posted in your thread regarding that cam issue.

I guess the fact that no one has tried the Summit carb proves my theory about why so many people try the Holley 600. Used ones are plentiful and inexpensive. That makes sense to me.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #4 by Lagerhead » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:12 pm

I ran a 600 on a stock motor with only headers with good results if that helps
99.5 F350 lowered air ride strong PSD crew cab swb
48 ford coupe cage old school stock car 12.25 to 1 290 cilford cam, cliford 2x2 with webber 38/38,some cool old stock car headers, 240 head with big valves, bbc roller rockers

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #5 by F-250 Restorer » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:26 am

I found a vid on youtube from a guy named Jason who built a 300 with a Summit carb. He is very vague about the carb. "Runs good, I guess. Starts right up...." His build was mostly stock, with a mild cam, iirc.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #6 by rpatt1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:43 pm

My son ran a summit carb on his 300. He traded a 4150-60 series holley straight across to a guy who had a low hour summit 600 (just from his grandpa's recommendation who loved the old ford autolite carbs those summits are based on). The difference in throttle response from the holley (also a 600cfm) was night and day in favor of the summit. Razor crisp! We became believers in the theory on the annular discharge boosters then and there. My sons '81 300 had 117,000 miles when he added an offy-C , full length hedman headers, 1.75 to 1 chevy 250 rocker arms. It ran awesome with the summit carb right up until it started exhibiting massive blow by. We are contemplating yanking it for a rebuild - I am anticipating we will find smashed ring lands and broken or missing rings when we get into it. Meanwhile he is satisfied driving his 1952 dodge B series pickup with a stock 218 flathead 6 and a 4 speed. - 4.76 rear gears - top speed he is comfortable revving the motor - 45MPH!

I had posted this back a couple years ago on here too - offering the summit house carburetor up as a definite new carb consideration for the 300.

Thanks,
Rusty

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #7 by F-250 Restorer » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:11 pm

rpatt1 wrote:My son ran a summit carb on his 300. He traded a 4150-60 series holley straight across to a guy who had a low hour summit 600 (just from his grandpa's recommendation who loved the old ford autolite carbs those summits are based on). The difference in throttle response from the holley (also a 600cfm) was night and day in favor of the summit. Razor crisp! We became believers in the theory on the annular discharge boosters then and there. My sons '81 300 had 117,000 miles when he added an offy-C , full length hedman headers, 1.75 to 1 chevy 250 rocker arms. It ran awesome with the summit carb right up until it started exhibiting massive blow by. We are contemplating yanking it for a rebuild - I am anticipating we will find smashed ring lands and broken or missing rings when we get into it. Meanwhile he is satisfied driving his 1952 dodge B series pickup with a stock 218 flathead 6 and a 4 speed. - 4.76 rear gears - top speed he is comfortable revving the motor - 45MPH!

I had posted this back a couple years ago on here too - offering the summit house carburetor up as a definite new carb consideration for the 300.

Thanks,
Rusty


Thanks for adding that Rusty. I'm about to buy one. Do you remember what changes were made, jets, secondary spring changes? k

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #8 by rpatt1 » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:23 pm

We left the carb stone stock - out of the box - factory setup.

However - they are easy to tune, and use Holley jets and other parts. There are a couple very good writeups on the internet forums - one of the fox mustang forums had an awesome multi page test article with pictures and detailed explanations of the circuits and available tuning methods. I'll see if i can find it.

Rusty.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #9 by rpatt1 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:46 pm

Here is a link to a good test and review of the summit carb

http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/induction-articles/482814-summit-carb-review-road-test.html

Rusty

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #10 by 80broncoman » Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:29 pm

F-250 Restorer wrote:Time has passed since I last inquired about this. I was wondering if any one has tried the Summit Carb on their 300 yet.
I'd love to hear.


I have one of the first ones back when they had the Holley name on them,......on a shelf in the basement. (its at least 17 years old?? )
its a 750 Vac Sec. ( just like this one http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m ... /overview/ )
With 2 differences
on the Name Holley is on mine and the fuel lines enter mine parallel to the mounting surface at the top of the carb.
It has a mid range stumble I can't get out. It did this on a friends 350 chev and then i bought it and it did the same on a 360 AMC. I can't imagine it would be any different on a 300 six. A Edlebrock 600 (AFB clone) Ran fine pout of the box on the 360AMC that the Holley didn't like.

So which one of the 60 summit carbs are you looking at ?
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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #11 by rpatt1 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:01 pm

This is the one I am referring to - summit house brand - remake of old ford Autolite 'shoebox' carbs with the nagging little issues all fixed :


Summit Racing SUM-M08600VS - Summit Racing Street & Strip® Carburetors

Click here for more information about Summit Racing SUM-M08600VS - Summit Racing Street &amp; Strip&#174; Carburetors
Compare
Carburetor, Summit, 600 cfm, Square Bore, 4-Barrel, Electric Choke, Vacuum Secondary, with DVD, Each

Part Number: SUM-M08600VS More Detail...

Estimated Ship Date: 9/3/2013 (if ordered today)
$265.97 regular
$239.95 on sale now

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #12 by F-250 Restorer » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:36 am

rpatt1 wrote:This is the one I am referring to - summit house brand - remake of old ford Autolite 'shoebox' carbs with the nagging little issues all fixed :


Summit Racing SUM-M08600VS - Summit Racing Street & Strip® Carburetors

Click here for more information about Summit Racing SUM-M08600VS - Summit Racing Street &amp; Strip&#174; Carburetors
Compare
Carburetor, Summit, 600 cfm, Square Bore, 4-Barrel, Electric Choke, Vacuum Secondary, with DVD, Each

Part Number: SUM-M08600VS More Detail...

Estimated Ship Date: 9/3/2013 (if ordered today)
$265.97 regular
$239.95 on sale now


Yes, that is the same carb I have been reading about. My engine is bored to a 304, with head work and over-size valves, etc., and should do well with this carb. It is a remake of the Autolite 4100's, and the Holley 4010, with annular discharge nozzles. I like how it has been modified for adjustability of the secondaries, the air bleeds, and uses mostly Holley parts. k

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #13 by F-250 Restorer » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:32 am

I bought the carb today. I love that company, Summit. The sale had ended, but the guy still gave me the August price of $239.99, with free shipping.

I'll also be selling my 3 year old, bought new, DP manifold.

I'm looking forward to the install and to the tuning and running. It should be fun.

**Along with the myth that the 300 needs back pressure for low end torque, I think we should lay to rest the belief that the C manifold takes away from the same low end torque. It only does so on near stock or mildly modified engines. Perfection would be to come up with a chart that shows the various rear end ratios and modifications, and the resultant hp of the mods, and to show where the DP is most effective on mildly built engines, and where the best performance is achieved from the C.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #14 by F-250 Restorer » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:30 am

I'll take the air horn off tomorrow and see if there is any pocket lint in there. I like the idea of an old 4100 being modernized with Holley parts.

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu31 ... 979904.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu31 ... dc03ca.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu31 ... 95d2ef.jpg

I should be running it in a few days. k

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #15 by F-250 Restorer » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:02 am

Hello everyone, today I installed the carb. I was glad I read the online review where the guy mentioned finding some debris in the bowls and needing to clean them out. I did remove the top (air horn, and I, too, found several black flakes that I blew out. Better to blow out than to have them clog some passage. It was really odd to look into the bowls, like looking into the bowls of a 4100 but all shiny and new like Christmas morning.



What seemed odd was that in the video it showed how to disconnect the choke flap linkage. But mine seemed nearly impossible to remove. It was too long to get through the arm off the choke coil because the other end hit on the carb housing before the arm came free. Finally I did manage to get it free after about 20 minutes of trying. But when I got it running I found that the same long end of the linkage hit something and prevented the choke flap from opening past about 60*. I played with it for quite a while to understand if the
linkage was so long so that it could bump or nudge another part of the choke or fast idle. Finally, when I decided it did not, I cut off 1/4". Now the choke opens fine.

In the first photo of this post, you can see the choke flap linkage protruding onto the red arm. That is the section I cut.

I also had to install and remove the rigid feed line several time to get it to stop leaking. Finally I took out the brass fittings that screw directly into the air horn, and found little black ***** of what seemed to be silicone or RTV sealer? residue. I removed it and it sealed. I know I need to make AN lines. With the DP intake it puts the fuel line hitting the valve cover, so I reversed it for now.

It seemed to crank and crank and not start. I could see the bowls were full through the windows, and it was spraying fuel, but not start. I thought I flooded it so I sprayed some starting fluid into the bores, and boom. It purred. And I mean purred. I was surprised how smooth it idled, at a low rpm. Tuning the a/f mix got the vacuum to 19 hg. I had never had that on this engine, not with four 4100's, three QJ's, or a new Edelbrock. Once the a/f was set, I dropped the rpm's to 750.

With all the carbs I have installed, I turn out onto the main four lane highway and gun it from a stand still. This was the first time I was unable to keep my foot in until I hit third gear. I had to let off. I was approaching an intersection and the speed scared me because of traffic. All the other carbs peaked and then I let off. This one forced me back off b/f hitting its peak.

What I notice is that when the power valve kicks in there is a slight lazy spot, not a bog, but it just seems lazy. The idle is so smooth that it makes me wonder why I could not get any of the other carbs to idle so smoothly. It also needs a fraction of the pedal to get the truck moving as the QJ did. I kept starting from a stop to determine if I had lost any of the low end pep, but I think I actually gained some.

Of course I do need to put a o2 sensor on it, and to dial it in a bit more, but for now I am very pleased.



Here is the bracket I modified. It is the Lokar bracket. It kept moving, pivoting on the stud/nut, so I added a bit to it to prevent it moving.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #16 by rpatt1 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:29 pm

Glad you have a positive experience with the new carb so far!

When you say "powervalve" do you mean secondaries opening?

If so - here is a tuning tip from Holley's website:
"QUESTION: I have a vacuum secondary carburetor that bogs when the secondaries come in. What will cause this?
ANSWER Bogging and hesitation are caused by the secondaries coming in too quickly. You can install a heavier secondary spring and this will prevent the secondary from coming in too soon. If the engine is sluggish in response at full throttle then the secondaries may not be opening soon enough. You will then need to go to a lighter spring. The spring kit is part number 20-13 which will have 7 different springs to fine tune with. Check out our video on Holley TV that explains how to change the springs on a 4150 carburetor. "

Have fun and good luck!
Rus.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #17 by F-250 Restorer » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:48 am

The transition is so smooth that I can't tell when the s. open. So, I'll assume, it is the s. opening. I'm surprised Holley would not mention or throw out the option of changing the jets on the s. side.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #18 by 80broncoman » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:16 pm

F-250 Restorer wrote:The transition is so smooth that I can't tell when the s. open.

It is proven that is that kind of opening is quicker accelerating than a opening where you can feel them "Kick in"

F-250 Restorer wrote: So, I'll assume, it is the s. opening. I'm surprised Holley would not mention or throw out the option of changing the jets on the s. side.


Holley is NOT going to mention that at all in the instructions. Can you imagine the calls to the tech line asking
What jets are best for my secondary side of my 750 carb. ?
Then in details they might list its a "Truck" with nothing else.

At Crane we had calls all the time asking what was the best ignition timing for a particular combo. AS if we had answers for the 1,000 different Cams in the 50 different engines we made cams for.
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When it come to engines If its .001 loose nobody knows, But if its .001 too tight EVERYBODY KNOWS!!
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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #19 by F-250 Restorer » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:56 am

What I don't like about the Summit Carburetor: They advertise it as fully tunable, with changeable air bleeds, pump nozzle restrictions, Holley acc. pump cams, Holley jets, and Holley power valves. BUT if you want/need to tune the nozzles, or the air bleeds, you have to purchase their kit (air bleeds $35, nozzles $55, iirc), and the kits are designed for going bigger on a v8, not for dialing it down.

These parts should be sold individually, with bleeds, restrictions, etc. both larger and smaller, enabling customers to tune to down or up, boosting their sales.

Summit Racing should have a kit, like Edelbrock offers, with a nice range of jets, bleeds, restrictions, pump cams, at an affordable price. I feel Summit Racing dropped the ball on this. It is a short coming of their new carb.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #20 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:30 pm

The biggest problem with a "fully tunable" carburetor is that its, well,...fully tunable.
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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #21 by rpatt1 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:37 am

I thought that nearly all the tuneable parts were Holley compatable items - not just jets/p-valves? (based on the review from the Ford muscle forum iirc?)

If you have an old Holley available - maybe you could trying pulling air bleeds and pump nozzles and test for fit?

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #22 by F-250 Restorer » Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:39 am

rpatt1 wrote:I thought that nearly all the tuneable parts were Holley compatable items - not just jets/p-valves? (based on the review from the Ford muscle forum iirc?)

If you have an old Holley available - maybe you could trying pulling air bleeds and pump nozzles and test for fit?


Granted, I have not connected the AFR up yet, so I'm not sure if I'll need restrictions and such. I was merely looking on Summit site to see what is available. Jets, power valve, air bleeds (I believe, but haven't yet tested fit), diaphram, cams, are Holley. The nozzles are only made by Summit, and you have to buy a kit for $55. However, in the kit there are only nozzles larger and equal to the size the carburetor came equipped with.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #23 by F-250 Restorer » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:29 am

I have a question for the carb tuners out there. Yesterday I installed my AEM AFR gauge and started tuning, trying to regain some mpg out of this carb. At idle I was reading 10:1. That is where the engine seems to like, where I get the highest vacuum. Usually when I tune I was taught to turn the mix screws in until it begins to sputter, or to just where the rpm drops a bit, then back out 1/4 turn, and that should be at the edge of lean. But I adjusted to best vacuum. Great vacuum, but lousy AFR. Don't I now do as I said before, and turn the mix screws in until rpm drops, then out 1/4 turn? Then, once done, if the AFR is still too rich, then a smaller idle restriction is likely needed, right?

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #24 by country fried 6 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:32 pm

engines in general will idle better on a richer mixture.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #25 by BIG 6 farmer » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:37 pm

First off you wanna make sure your primary throttle blades are closed as far as possible, to cover the idle transfer slots. Since you say adjusting the mixture screws makes a difference, I doubt that is an issue? Im thinking It is a mixture/ vaporization problem, from a cold, large volume Intake Manifold :hmmm: Try adding extra heat to intake Manifold & for sure pull hot air off your Exhaust Manifold for Carb. intake. Then lean up idle, ck. AFR. im sure you will see better AFR # & better mileage. :thumbup:
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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #26 by F-250 Restorer » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:55 am

I dropped one size down with the idle feed restrictions, from .046 to .043. I also dropped from .067 to .065 main jets. Judging by the AFR gauge, I am right about where I should be now.

One other adjustment I am in the process of making is lessening the stroke of the accelerator pump. If it doesn't stumble or hesitate with a certain amount of discharge, why shoot more? Any additional gas beyond preventing a stumble is wasted mpg.

When I got the carb there was a 'lazy' spot when the secondaries opened. The secondary jets were .073. I moved the primaries, originally .067's, to the secondaries, but that was too small. Now I have a set of .070's on the way.

**Working with the AFR gauge during tuning is a blast. I can get the mix screws to a point where if I turn one a fraction of an inch it immediately shows on the gauge. That is a trip.

***I am amazed at the amount of machining burrs around the booster orifices. It took quite a bit of work to get in there and remove it. A blunder in quality control.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #27 by F-250 Restorer » Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:09 am

The carb is coming around. I haven't done an actual mpg because my side tank needs to be drained and cleaned so I can fill it and run the test. My rear tank is 38 gallons.

By reducing the pump shot, by adjusting the arm, I can feel the throttle response is peppier. I'm also using the pink cam.

I tried the .067 jets in the secondaries and they were too small. I am up to .070 secondaries.

The primaries are now at .064.

I drive a routine route. Before I started tuning I could drive for three days on 10 gallons. Now I am driving 5 days on the same 10 gallons. (I know this means nothing before the actual fill up test, but it is looking hopeful).

I also had to adjust a nasty detonation out by tuning the vacuum advance canister.

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Re: Summit Carb??

Post #28 by Harte3 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:43 pm

:beer:
'83 F150 300, 0.030 over, Offy DP, Holley 4160/1848-1 465 cfm, Comp Cam 260H. P/P head, EFI exhaust manifolds, Walker Y Pipe, Super Cat, Turbo muffler, Recurved DSII, Mallory HyFire 6a, ACCEL Super Stock Coil, Taylor 8mm Wires, EFI plugs.

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