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Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

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MICROMACHINE72
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Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #1 by MICROMACHINE72 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:30 pm

Hi all, lots of good reading here!! Wish I found this site about year ago, would have saved a lot of time for all my stupid questions asked at other places! Our plan started last year for ill attempt to go NHRA comp eliminator racing on a shoe string Budget. (IMPOSSIBLE!!) the experts tell me. well I'm dumb enough to try! We are setting up to run E/ED with a hopeful debut sometime this year, for a total budget of no more than 10K. race ready. We acquired an older late 1980's C/ED rear engine digger that previously ran a small cid sbc. I have $4k so far in the entire car/chassis with updates. We are building a stock head 240 to start with, and at 1450lbs. we hope the first effort to be close to the index at 8.90. I know- I know we need to be .5/.6 tenths under to be competitive, but thats not the formal goal, but heck, with low car counts at divisional's who knows? I'm in uncharted territory for the 6-build, and of course was told what I'm doing has been done, (I understand that) and to call on the advice of Mr. Arnold, Ambrose, Treadwell or Koesel, but I don't want to bother anyone with my nonsense. Not on the first attempt anyway! If she blows up in the water box, or can't get out the 11's then maybe I'll yell for help- or crawl back to the Chevrolet... :lol: :P If anyone is intersted I'll post up some current build photos.

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #2 by CNC-Dude » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:28 pm

The biggest obstacle will be the cylinder head. I have previously been involved with many Chevy inline 6's that ran in the Comp Econo Altered and Dragster classes. Post some pics of your car.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #3 by MICROMACHINE72 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:09 pm

Thought about the Chevy, Darren Davis went to extremes with the Pontiac heads tied together! I will admit, was never a Ford man, but when I decided on E/ED which seems to have little fan-fare latley with requiring a stock production style 2-valve head, the 240 Ford seemed like the only choice with the big bore/short stroke compared to the chevy, mopar, AMC- and the old GMC's 292-302's heck! I could go T/AD racing for what those cost to build. I wanted to use something I could find plentiful and cheap in the junkyards like they did back in the 70's. I so far succeeded at that, buying 3-cores for $300- LOL! Trying to post pics..

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #4 by MICROMACHINE72 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:12 pm

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #5 by MICROMACHINE72 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:13 pm

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #6 by MICROMACHINE72 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:17 pm

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #7 by MICROMACHINE72 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:30 pm

couple pictures, chassis is ready, waiting for me to finish the first effort motor. Shorty glide, just cut up another case to fit the J&W Ultra-Bell so I can adapt to the Ford. (At least it will be easy to go back to a sbc bell if this doesn't pan out!) Block up on the Bridgeport cutting down the sleeves. I decided to sleeve all 6 holes with Darton steel sleeves, going back to the org. 4.00 bore. Sitting in my manual Honing machine now, just finished up a Home-made TQ-plate, 1-1/2 A-36 plate, I torched out and finished machining last weekend. Please don't make fun of my hobby shop! I know it looks a wreck! Old Clifford-2-4bbl intake I scored on Ebay for $100. I adapted some Holley spacers, I have three sets of carbs I want to try- 2-660 center squrters, 2-450 mech. sec. 4bbls, or 2-500 2bbl holleys. I know this manifold is not optimum by far, We will fab one up in the future, but right now this is what I have. I projected the budget for the engine build around $1500, but I'm already over that, going to end up around $2500 total. Oh-well- I pi**ed more than that away on other foolish things in my first 40yrs of life..

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #8 by CNC-Dude » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:06 am

Yeah, too bad Darren's Iron Duke Frankenstein head wasn't legal. He had used one of our heads in the past also, but he did good with his 250 engine and set a lot of records. Our 292 eventually set the record at 8.04@168 at the US Nationals in '86 in D/D. I'd hate to see what it costs to race competitively in Comp today.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #9 by motzingg » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:23 am

awesome project! Keep us posted!

your 'hobby shop' looks a lot like my 'dream shop' not to mention some seriously cool stickers with a pedigree of their own! you cant fake that!

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #10 by MICROMACHINE72 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:27 am

wow! 8-oh's is flyin' for sure!! I dream of those ET's for our program. I'm hoping the first motor can crack high 8's. I would love to know what Koesels Logghe car weighed back when he was running IHRA with the 240. We are stuck at 6.00lbs per cube. But with an automatic. Patrick Nahan is Flying too with that FED in the low sevens with a 5-speed, but that rig is faaaar from low buck!

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #11 by MICROMACHINE72 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:35 am

Thanks for the comps! its quite crowded for an old backyard shop! Couple more pics when we first started on the block. Picked up the jewel Storm-Vulacn up in Detrioit. Sho had 6-off them, going to the scrap yard! .15 per pound! Oh well, now I don't have to wait to get my cranks done!

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #12 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:38 am

Micromachine72,
It sounds like your game plan is spot on for your budget, except for your aforementioned intake setup, which you can address after you are going down the track. You have lots of parts to work with - your chassis looks cool.

Decades ago I also ran a 240 in IHRA D/ED with moderate success. It has several advantages over other engine choices in my opinion, like the 12-port head and the 4" bore. With today's parts technology I have no doubt you'll get 'er in the 8s.

And thanks for mentioning me among the Ford six luminaries in your post - I'm not worthy. Those other guys took that engine way past where my time, smarts, and monies would allow me.

Good luck with your project.

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #13 by MICROMACHINE72 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:52 am

Thanks for the Vote of confidence Mr. Koesel. Feel free to comment on anything I'm doing if it looks totally out of wack or wrong! Was thinking about making a header/intake flange out of maybe 1" thick alumn flat bar, get that intake out a little more, a little more room for a straight shot of primary pipe before the bend. I can fasten with countersunk socket heads, then bolt the intake on normally. I have not started on the header yet, would love to find a used one, but no luck so far. What do you think? 1-2-3 tied and 4-5-6- tied 1-3/4 primaries with 2-collectors 3"? Or dump all six in one big 4" collector?

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #14 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:37 pm

For your app I don't think you need a longer runner / spacer.

The current thinking in Comp seems to be 1-2-3 into a merge collector, 4-5-6 into a merge collector, joining the two secondary pipes into a 2-into-one merge / megaphone collector. I'm guessing for a 240-ish pkg you'll need 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 primaries, 2.5 secondaries and 2.5 or 3" merge collector outlet.

I've tried 1-2-3 / 4-5-6 separate, a 1-2-3-4-5-6 into one "gattling gun" collector and the above 1-2-3, 4-5-6 into-two-into-one. Not a lot of difference in my bracket racer packages but the above setup seems to be in use the most.

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #15 by CNC-Dude » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:40 pm

Definatly a cool project. Just doing a quick number crunch on the Wallace calculators site, a minimum of 410 HP is required to get you an 8.99 1/4 ET at your 6 lb/ci target weight. Should be able to squeeze that out of your engine, even with a production cylinder head. Make sure you do an engine build thread as you make progress.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #16 by bubba22349 » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:32 pm

Looks like will be a great combo :thumbup: you have a great workshop and equipment :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #17 by MICROMACHINE72 » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:52 pm

Thanks for the kind words Bubba! Most of the old machinery I picked up over the years basically at scrap value. I could not afford to go racing any other way. Now, if I could only stay off the computer a little more.. I may actually get something done!

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #18 by CNC-Dude » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:29 pm

Have you had to or are you going to have to stretch the frame behind the drivers area to put the 6 cylinder in your chassis?
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #19 by Broncitis » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:20 am

When you spoke of mr Arnold in your first post, were you referring to Jerry Arnold, I had a 240 head prepped by him and it flows very well, it cost me nearly 1200 bucks ready to bolt on without the rockers, I think it was 230 and 175 at .600 lift on the bench. besides the flow #'s I think he knows how to prep them for the real world. not just what the bench shows. its a real art for those who really know what they are doing, he is a handful. I think he told me more than once he didn't understand why someone as dumb as I was doing this motor of mine. he was probably right.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #20 by Broncitis » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:34 am

What kind of rods are you using, my highly reworked 240 rods have never failed, but they keep me up at night at 6800 rpms. those rods on your bench look very good. Your really gonna have to turn some revs, but it can be done.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #21 by MICROMACHINE72 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:37 am

Believe it or not, those are new "stock" rods from a late model 5.4 Triton-Mod motor. They work pretty well in the boosted Mustang motors we have built, around 530/550 to the tires with no failures. And there cheap about $125 per set! We will find out how they hold up at 7500-7800 on the six! If they exit early, Eagle makes a nice H-beam for the Mod motor to replace the stock rods for about $450. a little heavy though at 680G's Trying to do this as cheap as I can! Actually spoke with Jerry a couple times. He's a great guy!

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #22 by CNC-Dude » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:46 pm

Those rods might not be as heavy as you think. The aluminum rods in our 292 were in the 750 gram range, so you are pretty good to come in at that weight with steel rods. An H-beam rod for the 292 is 840 grams.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #23 by Broncitis » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:56 pm

I'm really interested as to how you are going to get those rods to fit.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #24 by Broncitis » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:13 am

Sometimes I'm really dry and direct, but I am very very interested in your build and looking to learn something, I love the people that put it on the line and actually build something, it makes it so exciting, their are some very smart people here and I'm pulling for ya all the way, you will be taking this 240 for all its worth, n/a, I think it can be done, have you got some cam specs in mind, I must say I do have my doubts if its not a solid roller and there it will eat your pocket book, if you make it with a solid flat I will be very impressed.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #25 by Broncitis » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:19 am

Don't use sbc, I hate that engine, my girlfriend who has never had a wrench in her hand can build one of those, no fun !!!
69 Early bronco, 4.11, toploader 4speed, 68k 3inch body lift, ET about 50 something!!!

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #26 by CNC-Dude » Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:20 am

I think I saw some roller lifters on his parts cart a few pics back, so I'd say he is going with a roller. He's got me curious too, I have been looking at some rear engine dragsters myself on RacingJunk and have found a lot of good deals close by. So I might be ditching the doorslammers and going to a dragster or altered real soon.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #27 by 82F100 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:37 pm

Micro,
Looks like a fun ride! Very interested in how the combo runs.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #28 by CNC-Dude » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:15 pm

What happened to this build project? Are you going to meet your deadline? Let's see some updates on it.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #29 by MICROMACHINE72 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:29 pm

first motor done and dynoed but way off our HP goal where we need to be.. After much tweaking this low buck build, first motor 11.1cr, solid flat cam, clifford intake-(1-4bbl) we only ended up at 342 hp. Decided to go a different route/class with the car, selling out the remainder of my six stuff.

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #30 by CNC-Dude » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:34 pm

Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you are not going to stay with the inline powerplant.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #31 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:12 pm

I think 342 HP with a single carb and only 11:1 CR is pretty good.

But for Comp you would definitely have needed something in the range of 15 - 16:1 CR, a roller cam with at least .700" lift, a carb venturi for every cylinder, and lots of tricks like additional camshaft supports, filled head, etc. Comp Eliminator is not for the faint-of-heart or thin-of-wallet.

Are you planning to sell the 300 block torque plate? Price?
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #32 by MICROMACHINE72 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:56 pm

I'm going to take a break from the inline, but I may try it again in the future, who knows, I've done worse things.. So I think I'll hang on to the plate. But I would be glad to lend it to you anytime you need it. -Mark

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #33 by CNC-Dude » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:41 pm

I think you should at least make some shakedown passes so you can create a baseline of where you are with this combo, so you can see where to go from there when you do come back to it.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #34 by motzingg » Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:48 pm

so let me get this straight, dude comes on here throws together an awesome engine out of off the shelf parts with tons of custom machine work, in like, 2-3 weeks, dynos it, makes 340 hp and decides he's just not that into the ford six and bails?!?

i'm simultaneously extremely motivated by how easy he makes it look, and completely depressed at how far out of my realm of capabilities this is...

i'd love to see more pictures of the final build, carb, intake, exhaust setup, what cam he went with, what the power curve looked like...

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #35 by MICROMACHINE72 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:36 pm

dude is fine, or duuder, or your dudeness, or el-duderino if your not into the whole majesty thing.. seriously, I wish it was 2-3 weeks, I started this motor project last summer. Back on the dyno last night with something overlooked and found 27 more hp. Gonna try a couple more cams next week if have time, if this first low-comp, flat tappet motor cracks 400hp I will move forth and put it in the car. Start on a better piece as I have another block all machined and ready to go.

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #36 by Broncitis » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:29 am

Follow FTF and I think you will get there, I don't know if you ever had the head ported properly and the block machined for a solid roller, but you fell short about where I thought you would fall without a solid roller, I hope you change your mind on c/r and roller cam, if you do it would be worth at least 60 to 70 hp and a lot of fans in my opinion. :beer:
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #37 by motzingg » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:50 pm

Ahh, thank god, if you had actually built this as quickly as you posted everything up... well... that would be crazy

either way starting with a blank sheet and no actual seat time, 340 dyno HP... and now you're close to 370... is remarkable.

i'm sure you've got it all figured out, but you might be able to pull down quicker ET's by having the flatter torque curve from the six compared to an equivalent HP higher revving 8... who knows.

glad to hear you're pushing on with development, thanks for sharing!

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #38 by MICROMACHINE72 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:17 pm

Broncitis wrote:Follow FTF and I think you will get there, I don't know if you ever had the head ported properly and the block machined for a solid roller, but you fell short about where I thought you would fall without a solid roller, I hope you change your mind on c/r and roller cam, if you do it would be worth at least 60 to 70 hp and a lot of fans in my opinion. :beer:


thanks for all the encouragement guys! Of course I would have opted for 16.1cr. but with a no-money-low-money build the .220 dome 351w pistons was the only choice I could find for under $200 set of slugs.. Like I said if we can crack 400hp with a 11.1 motor, then it gives me hope for another 25-30hp at around 13.5 or soo with a $700 set of Ross pistons... Roller cam?? Yeah, there is some more power there no doubt, but I really don't think it will be night and day, I feel the "right" flat-tappet will be darn near close to max output, but that's just my theory.. And yes, if one more person tells me "comp racing is not for the faint of heart" I gonna lose it!! Thats obvious for any person to see, but with an all time low in comp car counts, well just being part of it again will be neat with a true bucks down build. We will have to see though.. More pics to come when I can catch my breath.

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #39 by motzingg » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:30 pm

i'll trade you your wimpy 350 hp 11:1 motor in exchange for a set of $700 pistons... just tell me where to write the check

i mean, at this point its pretty much scrap iron right?

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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #40 by Broncitis » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:35 am

Race tech can probably help you with a piston well below 700 dollars, I see where they are offering the exact piston I helped them develop for my build from another post. Everybody seems to always know best when you are spending the money and you are the one actually developing something, that said, at this point and sometimes you have to know when to cash in the chips before the losses are to much, but you are almost there and wouldn't it be much more expensive to move to another engine and start over, I'll take the walk with you on the solid flat, just because I want you to totally succeed at this, I also understand that you are at the point on this build where any more hp starts getting very expensive. If you are open to it PM myself, I would like to talk to ya about cam profiles off the board, its getting tight on hp now, but I still think you can achieve this, look at the challenge this way if you choose, anybody can build any popular v8 with all the aftermarket parts, but who do you know with a 400hp 240, now that's doing something in my opinion. Also if you get to around 375 to 380 hp on this build you should be able to outrun any 400 horse v8, just because of the launch properties of the six over the v8 and still have the rev capability because of the 240 stroke down the track.
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Re: Low Buck 240 build for Comp Eliminator

Post #41 by CNC-Dude » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:16 am

Your definately off to a good start, but your in need of a few things, buts lot of it, like lots more cylinder head, lots more compression and lots more camshaft. 400 HP is still respectable, but far from getting into the ballgame even if the class attendance is falling off since the index is already established. Even though your trying to go after the "low buck" aspect of it, throwing some money at this in the right places will help you zero in on your goal a lot better and might surprise you at how much closer you can come to your chances of pulling this off and still be "low buck-ish".
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