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Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on crank?

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clintonvillian
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Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on crank?

Post #1 by clintonvillian » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:14 pm

This may be a very dumb question, but I am wondering if this could be done. Possibly with a 1/4" "shim" the same diameters as the balancer behind it?

My thoughts are for running an 8 rib belt, I could machine two additional grooves in the balancer and it would match the 8 rib accessory pulleys produced for the 302's?

This would allow me to run EVERYTHING off of one belt, clean up the bay, and reduce the stress on the crank.

CNC-Dude
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #2 by CNC-Dude » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:25 pm

So the OD of the balancer is already grooved with 6 ribs?
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clintonvillian
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #3 by clintonvillian » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:20 pm

Yes it is, all of the aftermarket accessories add the additional two grooves to the front, hence the need to slide it out as there is room to cut additional grooves into the balancer towards the rear but not the front.

Heres what it looks like............http://www.allusedtruckparts.com/ebaypi ... BAL-415_(2).jpg

Other option is to go to a zero balance 351 balancer and add a pulley to it, I am just not certain if they would line up with mine, and you have to machine off part of the hub to get the right depth. So I figure it is cheaper to make 2-identical 1/4" (=/- whatever 2 additional grooves on a v belt add up to) place one behind balancer and one in front. Then cut the two extra grooves in the balancer.

I can also add a pully to the front of the balancer and run an additional belt to my supercharger, A custom hub for it is EXPENSIVE, and this way you could dress the engine up and not have as much pressure on the crank.

If this would work it could really open up a lot of options for everyone considering boost......

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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #4 by CNC-Dude » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:46 pm

Stick with the 300 balancer, but I don't see why it wouldn't work since it already has 6 cut into the original one.
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Broncitis
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #5 by Broncitis » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:39 am

Will you have the correct diameter with the set up you are looking at, also the custom extended hub on the balancer if you choose directly to the supercharger separately will have little to no affect on the crank bearings.
69 Early bronco, 4.11, toploader 4speed, 68k 3inch body lift, ET about 50 something!!!

clintonvillian
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #6 by clintonvillian » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:30 am

That would be a 2:1 ratio on the S/C. There are 2.7" pullies available for the S/C and possibly even smaller. Thats a ratio of 2.22:1...........

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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #7 by Broncitis » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:29 am

The problem is the snout on the 112, it is different than the m90 which can go to 1.9 with machining the snout, the keyed 112 and 90 use the same pulleys and shaft, but the snouts are different and 2.85 is smallest pulley I think it can use, this defeats all the previous braniacing if you go this route.
WARNING: The only way to install the 2.75" or the 2.60" Pulley is to have the Snout Housing Machined down for it to fit properly. Some Snout Housing Castings are made differently in sizes and do vary, as to what the smallest pulley you can use without machining. The smallest size we recommend is 2.85", without any machining performed on the snout housing casting area
69 Early bronco, 4.11, toploader 4speed, 68k 3inch body lift, ET about 50 something!!!

clintonvillian
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #8 by clintonvillian » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:20 am

The smallest size available without machining is 2.7". Assuming a 2.22 ratio, at 4500 rpms that is producing just a bit over 8psi 335 HP, and 430lbft of torque.


The lightning M112 is not keyed, it is pressed fit.

I am wondering as far as fuel efficiency, reliability, and power are concerned, which option would be the best?

A higher rpm naturally aspirated engine

Or this boosted setup I have shown here

Broncitis
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #9 by Broncitis » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:53 pm

Clinton, you are always moving the goal post, I won't help you anymore until you figure out what you are doing.
69 Early bronco, 4.11, toploader 4speed, 68k 3inch body lift, ET about 50 something!!!

clintonvillian
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #10 by clintonvillian » Sat Feb 01, 2014 11:33 am

Ah man, don't take it personally. I am just trying to state the facts and get the best bang for the buck.

My problem is never enough money and i want it all. Power, fuel economy, and a reliable final product. I am not settling until i get it.

Every engineering design project i have ever seen (thats being part of multi million projects) has had changes and always involves brainstorming. A bunch of guys throwing around ideas until a good works. Thats what i am trying to do here.

The reason i asked about blower vs natural is a guy named colonel flashman had an engine built on fte and is claiming aboit the same numbers i am seeing with a supercharger using the calculators.

Everything with this dang blower involves this bastard size harmonic balancer and there is only so much room for pulleys and tensioners.

pmuller9
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:17 pm

clintonvillian wrote:The reason i asked about blower vs natural is a guy named colonel flashman had an engine built on fte and is claiming aboit the same numbers i am seeing with a supercharger using the calculators.


Really??? Double check your Torque figures against his especially below 3000 rpm.

The second consideration is:
In order to get over 300+ hp naturally aspirated, the cam intake and exhaust durations are greater than 230 degrees with valve overlap 10 degrees or more, not the best for fuel economy.
Also the torque peaks above 3600 rpm, not a low end grunt machine either.

clintonvillian
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #12 by clintonvillian » Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:36 pm

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/30774 ... ost2912007

There is the link.

And here is the info:

300 H.P. @ 4600 rpm & 400 Torque @ 3200 rpm w/ a 10 to 1 C.R.
It idels @ 675 & is smooth as glass, a quarter was placed on top of the Valve Cover & it Did Not move Nor rattle @ least on the stand anyway.

Ross Pistons 4.060
Hastings Power Flex Rings .060
Federal Mogul Mains .020 Under
Clevite Performance Bearings Std.
Federal Mogul Cam Bearings Std.
Melling Torque Cam
Melling H.V. Oli Pump
Eagle H-beam Rods 6.300 2.100 Rod Journal
Crane Gold Race Roller rockers
ARP Main Stud Kit, Rocker Studs,
Fisher International Ballancer
Bore 4.060
Power Hone 4.060
Full P&P Intake & Exhaust
Performance valve job
Performance Balance job on Steele Crank w/ in 7 grams
Grind Rod Journals to 2.100
Plumb Intake for Heat via Water Pump
Deck Block to Square
Align hone to Factory specs
Deck block for Zero Deck
Offenhauser C Intake (thinking of going to a D/P)
Holley 1850 600 CFM
S.S. Borla 2 into 2 Header
8' of 3" tubes attached to Flowmaster 40's
4 Core Desert Radiator mated w/ the Original Radiator Housing
2 1,200 CPU Electric Fans, on @ 180*, off @ 170* mounted diaginally
MSD 6A Eclectronics Package & Coil
Mid 70's Ford Electronic Ignition (the mallory wouldn't fit?!.)

pmuller9
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #13 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:20 pm

OK.. I see it but I would like to have seen more specifics on the port work on the head.

The cam is a 204/214 high lift profile and would compliment a high velocity small port head.

They used the 6.385 BBC rod with a 2.1 rod journal which is something I was looking at for a high power turbo application.
The rod would need the flat side of the big end chamfered to clearance the journal radius.

clintonvillian
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #14 by clintonvillian » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:39 pm

I would have liked to see a dyno sheet, but he never would supply one. I think the rods are overkill on a natural aspirated engine. For the complication and expense added by a supercharger it just makes you have to think is it really worth the headache on a daily driver..... The cost would offset the machine work.......

Just something to think about. If it wasn't a daily driver that has ac, ps, and all the other friendly goodies the decision would be as difficult for me to make.

clintonvillian
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #15 by clintonvillian » Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:46 pm

I am still wondering how the elastomer will hold up on the balancer given the added load of a supercharger. If you could get 50,000 out of it before it started to break down it would be worth it.

The other concern I have is with it coming apart while running. One of the guys on the corral snapped his crank off using a super charger, demolished everything between the front of the block and radiator support including the hood.... wish I could find the thread now.

pmuller9
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:27 pm

clintonvillian wrote:I am still wondering how the elastomer will hold up on the balancer given the added load of a supercharger. If you could get 50,000 out of it before it started to break down it would be worth it.

The other concern I have is with it coming apart while running. One of the guys on the corral snapped his crank off using a super charger, demolished everything between the front of the block and radiator support including the hood.... wish I could find the thread now.


The further out on the crank the S/C pulley is, the greater the chance of crank problems.
The elastomer failing and having the balancer come apart is not a good thing either.

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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #17 by CNC-Dude » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:32 pm

clintonvillian wrote:I am still wondering how the elastomer will hold up on the balancer given the added load of a supercharger. If you could get 50,000 out of it before it started to break down it would be worth it.

The other concern I have is with it coming apart while running. One of the guys on the corral snapped his crank off using a super charger, demolished everything between the front of the block and radiator support including the hood.... wish I could find the thread now.

One thing that is often overlooked with the inline stuff is that as the HP rises considerably, so does the needs that are required in the balancer department. This is a much bigger problem in the inlines than in V8 engines. The inliner crowd has gotten together and had BHJ develop and offer an SFI approved balancer for the newer Atlas Vortech Chevy 6's as well as the older 250/292 engines. What is often misunderstood by many inline guys is that, while 3-400 HP doesn't seem like a lot compared to V8's that make the same everyday, the inline cranks are more easily flexed and create the damaging harmonics sooner when more power is made than V8's do.
So a stock balancer is designed to cope with the scant HP the engine makes at low RPM, but when you double or triple the power, even at low RPM's, the damper needs a different elastomer to handle it, just like BHJ has made for the other engines.
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clintonvillian
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #18 by clintonvillian » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:21 pm

Just wanted to show you guys the space constraints I am dealing with. I am sure you guys understand just how long this motor is.

Image
Image

As it sits there are 3.5" to fit in a 1.5" S/C pulley and an electric fan. If I recess the condenser into the core support and shave the fan hub off of the water pump I can increase it to 5". I just hate to weaken the core support by recessing it.

country fried 6
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Re: Could the harmonic balancer be slid forward 1/4" on cran

Post #19 by country fried 6 » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:59 pm

clintonvillian wrote:http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/307743-my-built-300-i-6-a-9.html#post2912007

There is the link.

And here is the info:

300 H.P. @ 4600 rpm & 400 Torque @ 3200 rpm w/ a 10 to 1 C.R.
It idels @ 675 & is smooth as glass, a quarter was placed on top of the Valve Cover & it Did Not move Nor rattle @ least on the stand anyway.

Ross Pistons 4.060
Hastings Power Flex Rings .060
Federal Mogul Mains .020 Under
Clevite Performance Bearings Std.
Federal Mogul Cam Bearings Std.
Melling Torque Cam
Melling H.V. Oli Pump
Eagle H-beam Rods 6.300 2.100 Rod Journal
Crane Gold Race Roller rockers
ARP Main Stud Kit, Rocker Studs,
Fisher International Ballancer
Bore 4.060
Power Hone 4.060
Full P&P Intake & Exhaust
Performance valve job
Performance Balance job on Steele Crank w/ in 7 grams
Grind Rod Journals to 2.100
Plumb Intake for Heat via Water Pump
Deck Block to Square
Align hone to Factory specs
Deck block for Zero Deck
Offenhauser C Intake (thinking of going to a D/P)
Holley 1850 600 CFM
S.S. Borla 2 into 2 Header
8' of 3" tubes attached to Flowmaster 40's
4 Core Desert Radiator mated w/ the Original Radiator Housing
2 1,200 CPU Electric Fans, on @ 180*, off @ 170* mounted diaginally
MSD 6A Eclectronics Package & Coil
Mid 70's Ford Electronic Ignition (the mallory wouldn't fit?!.)


I seriously doubt that 300hp is possible with that cam in an NA motor.

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